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You Make the Call - Round Over the Berm


Taquila Tab, Sass #25048

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You are incorrect. Spotters rule on misses. Any other penalty is the TO call. He takes what he sees and what other range officials tell him (i.e. spotters. unloading table officer, etc.) and makes the decisions himself. He can be over rulled by posse marshal, match director, etc. If you do not believe this, take an RO course.

 

In the OP's case it seems the TO didn't see it and spotters saw it twice :lol:

 

...:P

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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You are incorrect. Spotters rule on misses. Any other penalty is the TO call. He takes what he sees and what other range officials tell him (i.e. spotters. unloading table officer, etc.) and makes the decisions himself. He can be over rulled by posse marshal, match director, etc. If you do not believe this, take an RO course.

Agreed, a good TO will poll the spotters for miss count, and if there's disagreement, make the appropriate call for number of misses... if the spotters have other input, they should so advise the TO at that time. It doesn't take a majority of spotters to make a "P" call, or any safety call. If the TO makes a call of a "P" or other safety call on his own, it doesn't require a consensus of spotters to support said call.

 

But... IMNSHO, the good TO will ask the spotters if they observed the same infraction as he did. But, even if they didn't, that shouldn't make any difference whether the TO should go ahead with his call.

 

However, I don't believe the TO must take the word of the spotters on calls other than misses, (I've certainly had them make bad calls on me in the past, probably not as many as calls they should've made, but just the same); I find spotters input helpful.

 

In this case, if the shooter was stopped after that one round, as it now seems and, from the information as presented in the OP; looking at the situation from the "Monday morning QB chair", it seems as tho' the TO was being obstinate. That doesn't make him necessarily "wrong", nor does it make us necessarily "right". We weren't there.

 

One question for the OP: Does this range have a local rule about the rifle muzzle being pointed over the berm? Some ranges do. That in and of itself could be enough to call a MDQ or as the local rule stipulates.

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One question for the OP: Does this range have a local rule about the rifle muzzle being pointed over the berm? Some ranges do. That in and of itself could be enough to call a MDQ or as the local rule stipulates.[/font]

This range has no such rule. In addition, the TO was also the PM. As it was a monthly match, there also was no specific MD.

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This range has no such rule. In addition, the TO was also the PM. As it was a monthly match, there also was no specific MD.

Thank you. As TO's or MDs, we each must make the call as we deem best. It will not always be popular, nor will it always be "right". Sometimes we'll find ourselves "Monday morning quarter-backed" to death. Even tho' we may each hold a different view for the outcome of this scenario, each of us should understand that a differing opinion is not necessarily a criticism. I would rather posse with a TO that errs on the side of safety, rather than on the side of what's popular. That said, I don't want to posse with a TO that cannot take input from others. When I said that "we weren't there", I was really trying to say that us "Monday morning quarter-backs" aren't privy to any of the background or personalities of the parties concerned. We can only draw conclusions based on the stated scenario in the OP, whatever other subsequent info is presented and our own proclivities in assessing the facts. The TO might not have this same objectivity. And that could be a good thing.

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You are incorrect. Spotters rule on misses. Any other penalty is the TO call. He takes what he sees and what other range officials tell him (i.e. spotters. unloading table officer, etc.) and makes the decisions himself. He can be over rulled by posse marshal, match director, etc. If you do not believe this, take an RO course.

 

I did.

 

RO1 manual page 8

 

E) Always give the shooter the benefit of any doubt.

F) There should always be three Spotters—the majority (two out of three) breaks the tie.

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I did.

RO1 manual page 8

E) Always give the shooter the benefit of any doubt.

F) There should always be three Spotters—the majority (two out of three) breaks the tie.

There needn't be a "majority" for a prodedural or safety call. As correctly quoted by GCK, the RO (or TO) polls the spotters for misses and input on other penalties. That's not been interpreted as being the same as the needed majority for misses.

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There needn't be a "majority" for a prodedural or safety call. As correctly quoted by GCK, the RO (or TO) polls the spotters for misses and input on other penalties. That's not been interpreted as being the same as the needed majority for misses.

 

Show us where it says this. Which RO manual, 1 or 2? What page? Under which section? What letter?

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How does one SEE a round over the berm? Now I can understand folks seeing some dust and hearing a thud...therefore...round not over the berm...but...what does a round over a berm look like? Does it make a special sound???? Does it create some kind of dust vaccuum...or however ya spell that.

 

Hmmmmmm...

 

:mellow:

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Show us where it says this. Which RO manual, 1 or 2? What page? Under which section? What letter?

Who was your RO instructor, did he not get this straight for you? RO can dish out a P, Safety, SDQ or MDQ with zero, 1,2, or 3 spotters seeing the infraction. Ideally and usually others see the infraction but not always.

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Who was your RO instructor, did he not get this straight for you? RO can dish out a P, Safety, SDQ or MDQ with zero, 1,2, or 3 spotters seeing the infraction. Ideally and usually others see the infraction but not always.

 

Which RO manual? What page? What letter?

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How does one SEE a round over the berm? Now I can understand folks seeing some dust and hearing a thud...therefore...round not over the berm...but...what does a round over a berm look like? Does it make a special sound???? Does it create some kind of dust vaccuum...or however ya spell that.

 

Hmmmmmm...

 

:mellow:

+ eleventy bazillion

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NO way should this have been a match DQ !! the TO has no more 'authority' than the rest of the possee,doesn't 'the book' say that we are ALL safety officers? And besides,the majority rule should have taken precdent over the TO's observation of the shot.If the spotters say it hit,then it hit. The Pard is owed an apology by the MD,and that TO needs a little talking to on the side as to his responsiblities when running the clock.

 

FYI, The TO ownes the fireing line and makes all calls. The ONLY thing the TO cannot overide is misses called by the spotters.

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How does one SEE a round over the berm? Now I can understand folks seeing some dust and hearing a thud...therefore...round not over the berm...but...what does a round over a berm look like? Does it make a special sound???? Does it create some kind of dust vaccuum...or however ya spell that.

 

Hmmmmmm...

 

:mellow:

What BS.... how does one measure a 170? Need an instant replay on a sweep? Can't call anything that doesn't kill or maim anyone? Or do you need the approval of anyone that might give you grief for having the balls to call it like you see it?

 

OY?

 

Get a grip...you can't hear a thud... unless it's a spark coming of your forehead. YOU GOT EARPLUGS IN! ferpete'sakes you'd fall for that story?

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Show us where it says this. Which RO manual, 1 or 2? What page? Under which section? What letter?

 

 

This may shed some light on the subject.

 

 

RO1 Page 3.- Last paragraph

 

"while every shooter is a Safety Officer, the assigned Posse Officer and Match Officials, as described in this document, are the ONLY persons who may judge a shooter wheather on the line or away from the firing line."

 

 

RO1, page 6

7) "Make the call, and call them like you see them!!! There are checks and balances in place. In case of rule or policy interpetation, you may be overruled. If you are over ruled, don' take it personally. Be glad for the competitor if it goes in his/her favor."

 

 

There may be other rules and such in the other books.

 

As someone has already mentioned, I too believe the TO/RO/Deputy (whom ever is running the timer at that moment) is in full control of the stage and has the authority to make safety calls in which he may be on the other end of the spectrum of the Spotters and such. He should seriously take in the opinions of the Spotters and others, but ultimately, it is his call. The TO/RO/Deputy of that stage can be easily replace by the MD if need be. Again, the shooter can protest the call too.

 

 

Blastmaster

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This may shed some light on the subject.

 

 

RO1 Page 3.- Last paragraph

 

"while every shooter is a Safety Officer, the assigned Posse Officer and Match Officials, as described in this document, are the ONLY persons who may judge a shooter wheather on the line or away from the firing line."

 

 

RO1, page 6

7) Maake the call, and call them like you see them!!! There are checks and balances in place. In case of rule or policy interpetation, you may be overruled. If you are over ruled, don' take it personally. Be glad for the competitor if it goes in his/her favor.

 

 

There may be other rules and such in the other books.

 

As someone has already mentioned, I too believe the TO/RO/Deputy (whom ever is running the timer at that moment) is in full control of the stage and has the authority to make safety calls in which he may be on the other end of the spectrum of the Spotters and such. He should seriously take in the opinions of the Spotters and others, but ultimately, it is his call. The TO/RO/Deputy of that stage can be easily replace by the MD if need be. Again, the shooter can protest the call too.

 

 

Blastmaster

 

 

 

Blastmaster

 

RANGE OFFICER ATTITUDE COWBOY ACTION SHOOTING™

SASS Range Operations Basic Safety Course

~7~

Copyright © Single Action Shooting Society, Inc 2011

Version “L”

 

6. Always refer to the SASS Shooters Handbook when stating the rules. Don’t quote them from

memory; you may be wrong. Enforce the rules as written, not what you think they mean.

The Range Operations Basic Safety Course and The Range Officer Training Course offer

interpretations and clarifications of the rules and procedures referenced within the SASS

Shooters Handbook that will be helpful in making the correct call.

 

9. Always read the rulebook from the contestant’s viewpoint.

 

10. Always give the contestant the benefit of doubt.

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FYI, The TO ownes the fireing line and makes all calls. The ONLY thing the TO cannot overide is misses called by the spotters.

Correct, in this case if I were the TO tho, I might have listened to the spotters. Depends on how strongly I believed what I saw.

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Get a grip...you can't hear a thud... unless it's a spark coming of your forehead. YOU GOT EARPLUGS IN! ferpete'sakes you'd fall for that story?

Really? I suppose with that logic you can't hear the ding of the bullet hitting the steel either.

 

I don't care if you believe it or not, I distinctly heard a thud of the bullet hitting the berm.

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GCK,

 

"how strongly I believed..." indicates doubt.

 

I also understand what you are saying.

 

just saying....

 

. . . . and any doubt should go to the benefit of the shooter (rule #10, page 7, RO1 handbook, version L)

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What BS.... how does one measure a 170? Need an instant replay on a sweep? Can't call anything that doesn't kill or maim anyone? Or do you need the approval of anyone that might give you grief for having the balls to call it like you see it?

 

OY?

 

Get a grip...you can't hear a thud... unless it's a spark coming of your forehead. YOU GOT EARPLUGS IN! ferpete'sakes you'd fall for that story?

 

Get a grip?

 

Ooooookay...

 

Fact is...or seems to be based on the information provided...which is all most of us have here, that there was significately MORE evidence that the round impacted the berm.

 

Having "Balls" also means having enough manhood to accept that you may be wrong.

 

Oy!

 

:FlagAm:

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Get a grip?

 

Ooooookay...

 

Fact is...or seems to be based on the information provided...which is all most of us have here, that there was significately MORE evidence that the round impacted the berm.

 

Having "Balls" also means having enough manhood to accept that you may be wrong.

 

Oy!

 

:FlagAm:

 

+1

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What BS.... how does one measure a 170? Need an instant replay on a sweep? Can't call anything that doesn't kill or maim anyone? Or do you need the approval of anyone that might give you grief for having the balls to call it like you see it?

 

OY?

 

Get a grip...you can't hear a thud... unless it's a spark coming of your forehead. YOU GOT EARPLUGS IN! ferpete'sakes you'd fall for that story?

 

 

 

?? - I have heard 'thuds' from rounds hitting berms many times.....I use the foamy type ear plugs...

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Correct, in this case if I were the TO tho, I might have listened to the spotters. Depends on how strongly I believed what I saw.

+1....correct. Like many of the these "you make the calls" we only got ONE SIDE of the evidence. As a TO if you saw the shooter pick the gun up barrels almost straight up and jack a round as he brought the butt up and AD's. You'd probably not be very convinced that two of the shooter's closest buddies thought that they heard a thud.

 

Apparently this TO (who also owns the range) isn't some jack-legged newbie who has never run a clock. Further, he's probably a bit sensitive about getting his range jerked by putting a round downrange through his neighbor's kitchen.

Really? I suppose with that logic you can't hear the ding of the bullet hitting the steel either.

 

I don't care if you believe it or not, I distinctly heard a thud of the bullet hitting the berm.

And, yeah, if you can hear a round thud the berm at 25-30 yards AND GO BY THAT without seeing dirt fly... well... you won't be hearing much of anything very long. Spotters shouldn't be relying on hearing a DING to indicate a hit or miss either as some targets are dead. Get some real ear plugs or learn the correct way to put the foamies in your head. :huh:

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+1....correct. Like many of the these "you make the calls" we only got ONE SIDE of the evidence. As a TO if you saw the shooter pick the gun up barrels almost straight up and jack a round as he brought the butt up and AD's. You'd probably not be very convinced that two of the shooter's closest buddies thought that they heard a thud.

 

Apparently this TO (who also owns the range) isn't some jack-legged newbie who has never run a clock. Further, he's probably a bit sensitive about getting his range jerked by putting a round downrange through his neighbor's kitchen.

 

And, yeah, if you can hear a round thud the berm at 25-30 yards AND GO BY THAT without seeing dirt fly... well... you won't be hearing much of anything very long. Get some real ear plugs or learn the correct way to put the foamies in your head. :huh:

 

Okay :lol: .....who said anything about not seeing the dirt fly?...

 

From the OP "both certain they saw the bullet impact on the berm and heard a “thud” from it hitting the berm. "

 

Yup - that says it all right there I reckon...;)

 

I'll where my foamies the way I want to :lol: ...and there ain't nothin' nobody can do about it :P

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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+1....correct. Like many of the these "you make the calls" we only got ONE SIDE of the evidence. As a TO if you saw the shooter pick the gun up barrels almost straight up and jack a round as he brought the butt up and AD's. You'd probably not be very convinced that two of the shooter's closest buddies thought that they heard a thud.

 

Apparently this TO (who also owns the range) isn't some jack-legged newbie who has never run a clock. Further, he's probably a bit sensitive about getting his range jerked by putting a round downrange through his neighbor's kitchen.

 

And, yeah, if you can hear a round thud the berm at 25-30 yards AND GO BY THAT without seeing dirt fly... well... you won't be hearing much of anything very long. Spotters shouldn't be relying on hearing a DING to indicate a hit or miss either as some targets are dead. Get some real ear plugs or learn the correct way to put the foamies in your head. :huh:

You really must be tired from all the leaping to conclusions you do. ;)

1. The barrel of the rifle was never almost straight up.

2. The two spotters were not the shooter's closest buddies. In fact, neither one of them even knew the shooter's alias at the time.

3. The TO doesn't own the range, isn't a newbie, and has run the clock many times before.

4. He was not being sensitive, he was just calling what in his mind he saw.

5. The nearest kitchen is close to a mile away.

6. The berm was closer to 20 yards away (not that the extra 5-10 yards makes)

7. If you'll go back and read the information contained in the original post you'll discover it says the impact WAS seen.

8. I get my hearing checked by an audiologist on a regular basis ever since I started this sport some 14 years ago and I have had no significant loss in hearing over that time period.

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Which RO manual? What page? What letter?

 

Check out post #16 on this thread, from Pale Wolf, if you don't understand this, nothing will help.

 

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=171200&pid=2209538&st=0entry2209538

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Okay .....who said anything about not seeing the dirt fly?...

 

From the OP "both certain they saw the bullet impact on the berm and heard a thud from it hitting the berm. "

 

Yup - that says it all right there I reckon...;)

 

I'll where my foamies the way I want to ...and there ain't nothin' nobody can do about it

 

GG ~

I knew you'd see that! :D And that's not what I was talking about and you know it.

FWIW- because I just happen to know a bit too much about lack of hearing- seriously if you can hear anything with the foamies in your head then they are not properly inserted.

 

The problem with hearing damage is that it's permanent. Ask me how I know but speak into my left ear.

 

BACK TO THE POINT THE WAY I SEE THE EVIDENCE SO FAR:

 

1) RANGE RULE IS OVER THE BERM IS AN MDQ

2) EXPERIENCED RO IS ALSO THE RANGE OWNER

3) SHOOTER MISSES IN SUCH A WAY AS TO GIVE THE RO EVIDENCE THAT CAUSED HIM TO CONCLUDE THAT AN OVER THE BERM VIOLATION OCURRED

4) RO FELT STRONGLY ENOUGH THAT HE IGNORED 2 SPOTTERS SAYING THAT THEY SAW IT a) hit the berm B) heard a 'thud'

5) ONLY ONE 'LINE RO' IS NEEDED TO CALL A MAJOR SAFETY

6) RO ASSESSED THE PENALTY

 

Conclusions from the thread post:

 

1) RO is an idiot that needs retraining :blush:

2) RO is overly hardass :ph34r:

3) RO is wrong :blush:

4) RO is stoopit :blink:

5) RO is unfair :ph34r:

 

You know this isn't going to go well for you in the lynch mob when we finally hear from the RO, right?

You really must be tired from all the leaping to conclusions you do. ;)

Just warming up... it keeps me in good shape. ;)

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I knew you'd see that! :D And that's not what I was talking about and you know it.

FWIW- because I just happen to know a bit too much about lack of hearing- seriously if you can hear anything with the foamies in your head then they are not properly inserted.

 

The problem with hearing damage is that it's permanent. Ask me how I know but speak into my left ear.

 

BACK TO THE POINT THE WAY I SEE THE EVIDENCE SO FAR:

 

1) RANGE RULE IS OVER THE BERM IS AN MDQ

2) EXPERIENCED RO IS ALSO THE RANGE OWNER

3) SHOOTER MISSES IN SUCH A WAY AS TO GIVE THE RO EVIDENCE THAT CAUSED HIM TO CONCLUDE THAT AN OVER THE BERM VIOLATION OCURRED

4) RO FELT STRONGLY ENOUGH THAT HE IGNORED 2 SPOTTERS SAYING THAT THEY SAW IT a) hit the berm B) heard a 'thud'

5) ONLY ONE 'LINE RO' IS NEEDED TO CALL A MAJOR SAFETY

6) RO ASSESSED THE PENALTY

 

Conclusions from the thread post:

 

1) RO is an idiot that needs retraining :blush:

2) RO is overly hardass :ph34r:

3) RO is wrong :blush:

4) RO is stoopit :blink:

5) RO is unfair :ph34r:

 

You know this isn't going to go well for you in the lynch mob when we finally hear from the RO, right?

 

Just warming up... it keeps me in good shape. ;)

 

:D

 

G (who has suffered from tennitis for near 20 years now)G ~ :FlagAm:

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Brother King, where do ya get the info that the RO is also the range owner, as you have stated?

Apparently I mis-read a previous post. It's not particularly germane to the evidence anyway.

 

It happens that a couple of the ranges that I frequent are owned by the MD. They are all pretty sensitive to OVER THE BERM violations as is typical. It happens that I was on the phone with one last night over this thread.

 

So, I'm playing devil's advocate hoping that we acutally hear from the accused RO. As often happens, I'm betting that the story changes once the other side is heard.

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I wonder if it ever crossed Custer's mind that what his Crow scouts saw was more valid that what he didn't see?

 

Just because you're in charge (and have the authority to make a call)...doesn't mean you shouldn't listen to those who are not.

 

Speaking as someone who once erroneously gave a shooter a MDQ, at this point, all that can be done is to tell the shooter, "Hey pard, I screwed up. I'm sorry. I will learn from this."

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Wearing either foamies or muffs, I routinely can hear the impact of a bullet on a woodchuck at 250 yards, over the report of a .243 Winchester. If you doubt this, I can refer you to another forum where far more experienced shooters than I will tell you the same thing.

 

Most foam ear plugs have a Noise Reduction Rating of around 28 to 30dB. One should easily be able to carry on conversation and hear most ambient sounds- unless significant hearing loss has already occurred ;)

 

PSA: I wear ear plugs for almost everything, including mowing and hammering nails. Even though I have tinnitus in my right ear, my hearing still tests quite well, and better than most people half my age. :)

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I wonder if it ever crossed Custer's mind that what his Crow scouts saw was more valid that what he didn't see?

 

Just because you're in charge (and have the authority to make a call)...doesn't mean you shouldn't listen to those who are not.

 

Speaking as someone who once erroneously gave a shooter a MDQ, at this point, all that can be done is to tell the shooter, "Hey, pard, I screwed up. I'm sorry. I will learn from this."

 

+1

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FINALLY EVIDENCE OF THE ROUND OVER THE BERM!

 

ROUND OVER THE BERM!

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