Free misses

[Snakebite]

Scenario #1

 

Rifle=10 rounds.

Shoot down falling targets (5 targets) using up to 10 rounds. Once all falling targets are down, place any remaining rounds on the "Dump" target.

Any falling targets that are not down are counted as a miss, and any misses on the dump target are counted as a miss.

 

 

Scenario #2

 

Rifle=10 rounds.

Shoot down falling targets (5 targets), then shoot the dump target 5 times.

All misses count.

 

 

 

It seems to me that the last few years have seen a rise in scenarios that encourage poor marksmanship. I am very aware that we are a speed/action game, but I have ALWAYS believed and as a MD have always practiced the idea that EVERY BULLET SHOULD HAVE A TARGET. I don't care for the idea of allowing the shooter to shoot into space or into the ground without being charged with a miss. I am also not a fan of allowing shooters to pick up misses using the shotgun. This idea of providing everyone with a methode of shooting a clean match is also just another bunch of huey. Why not just give them a Clean Match certificat in their Shooter's Packet. What's wrong with just having the shooter shoot the targets, and count any misses that s/he may have....Simple idea isn't it?

 

Snakebite

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

While I would shoot your scenario #2 match all day long, I think the occasional "no miss" stage is welcomed by most shooters. Especially when shooting at smaller or flying targets.

 

I wrote a stage a couple weeks ago where if you missed the flying bird, you could shoot an extra SG knockdown to make up for it.

 

Fillmore

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

I am gonna respectfully disagree a little. While other shooting sports may have a practical application (read crossover training for defensive situations etc.) I don't believe that CAS falls into that category. As a match director I don't believe it's my job to make people better shooters, it's my job to entertain them in a safe manner and keep them coming back. Right now folks like big/close lot's clean matches and matches are being judged by this standard. It may change and it may not. I have seen some large matches recently trying to take the sport back to how it was played 10-15 years ago and it's not really being received all that well. That being said I kinda like stages that "make" be more careful sometimes. It really steps up the challenge factor.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

While I would shoot your scenario #2 match all day long, I think the occasional "no miss" stage is welcomed by most shooters. Especially when shooting at smaller or flying targets.

 

I wrote a stage a couple weeks ago where if you missed the flying bird, you could shoot an extra SG knockdown to make up for it.

 

Fillmore

 

Cool by me

 

GG ~

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Well I think it's fine cuz usually the KD's are a lot smaller then the recommended SASS target sizes...and become smaller if you're shooting lighter loads. So it cuts the customers some slack...nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

[Flying W Ramrod]

Gotta agree mostly with Snakebite. Most pstages run "Every Bullet Has a Home" and just one or two freebie stages. Keeps the masses coming back but doesn't dumb down the sport.

As for practical applications i.e. defensive training, not per se but if some nut case comes into my place, I know how to acquire the target and pull the trigger better now then I did 10 years ago, my wife also. We know how to lead a moving target that's either runnng toward or away from us. We know how to handle the gun in such a manner that we are more comfortable with them and are more knowledgeable in the proper uses and targeting of them.

Was this intended? Probably not, but with use comes proficiency.

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

Last time I checked even though targets are bigger and closer that everybody at every match are not shooting clean, from what shoots that I have looked at their scores, average between 8 to 15% clean shooters so that tells me their is some challenge still in the Game, and by the way a dump target can be misleading, I have seen more rounds jacked from rifles shooting dump targets than any where else.

 

KK

 

Scenario #1

 

Rifle=10 rounds.

Shoot down falling targets (5 targets) using up to 10 rounds. Once all falling targets are down, place any remaining rounds on the "Dump" target.

Any falling targets that are not down are counted as a miss, and any misses on the dump target are counted as a miss.

 

 

Scenario #2

 

Rifle=10 rounds.

Shoot down falling targets (5 targets), then shoot the dump target 5 times.

All misses count.

 

 

 

It seems to me that the last few years have seen a rise in scenarios that encourage poor marksmanship. I am very aware that we are a speed/action game, but I have ALWAYS believed and as a MD have always practiced the idea that EVERY BULLET SHOULD HAVE A TARGET. I don't care for the idea of allowing the shooter to shoot into space or into the ground without being charged with a miss. I am also not a fan of allowing shooters to pick up misses using the shotgun. This idea of providing everyone with a methode of shooting a clean match is also just another bunch of huey. Why not just give them a Clean Match certificat in their Shooter's Packet. What's wrong with just having the shooter shoot the targets, and count any misses that s/he may have....Simple idea isn't it?

 

Snakebite

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Yep, I enjoy the harder ones as well as the easy ones (with built in makeups), but most of my customer base does not. So, we normally shoot a fair number of the easy ones. Not everyone in our matches is a top-5-% shooter who has lightening reflexes and memory good enough to count a six-deck Blackjack game in Vegas.

 

We are in the entertainment business. If a MD doesn't believe that, hope that club has some deep pockets to let that MD struggle until they learn the lesson.

 

In the first scenario, every bullet does have a target. No one is intentionally missing, they just have the freedom to go faster than normal. In a way, it is a good thing to practice sometimes. This isn't Nascar, where it costs you half a million to make a mistake. And the first style of stage lets you make a couple of mistakes for free. Some folks have to push really hard to get out of a "timing" rut where they are afraid to go faster because it will cost them 5 seconds.

 

So, in the end, it's all good. Look at it as just another way to add some variety to the game, if you want.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

I'm going to agree with Deuce ,if I use smaller targets like 8" kds using pistols than I'm going to give shooter a chance to clean up with shotgun like Deuce said I want folks having a great time & coming back.Now with rifle sometimes I givem a chance to make up shot with a reload on smaller kd's giving a chance for a clean match as well.

 

 

One of my favorite things to do on one stage during a match is with pistols your going to have to shoot 4 kd's & put some rds on some static targets so there is a bullet for every target but if you knockdown the kd's with pistol/pistols you dont have to shoot shotgun so its a built in bonus if your brave you dont even have to bring shotgun to stage.I think most folks enjoy it & I never heard complaints about it.

 

 

 

AO

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

Last time I checked even though targets are bigger and closer that everybody at every match are not shooting clean, from what shoots that I have looked at their scores, average between 8 to 15% clean shooters so that tells me their is some challenge still in the Game, and by the way a dump target can be misleading, I have seen more rounds jacked from rifles shooting dump targets than any where else.

 

KK

 

 

 

Yep I agree,folks will hit knockdowns than get sloppy on dump where you can actually get scored a miss,see that alot.

 

 

 

AO

[Gunslinger SASS 10706 Life]

I agree with Deuce and Garrison Joe. The ones of us that run matches need to keep foremost in our minds that we are in the entertainment business. If we dont give the customers what they want, we are out of business. Take a look at the club attendance records and what kind of a match they put on and it doesnt take long to figure out what the shooters prefer.

In this area the clubs that consistently draw the least shooters have the attitude, We know what we like and that is the way my match will be run. They wont listen to what the shooters want and those clubs are really struggling to stay afloat.

The majority of the shooters that attend monthly matches wont ever win their class much less be near the top overall. These are the shooters that come to each match and are the backbone of each club. All they have to look forward to is to hear their name called for a clean match and the congradulations from their peers. If I can make it a little easier for a few of them to do this I am going to do it.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

I am gonna respectfully disagree a little. While other shooting sports may have a practical application (read crossover training for defensive situations etc.) I don't believe that CAS falls into that category. As a match director I don't believe it's my job to make people better shooters, it's my job to entertain them in a safe manner and keep them coming back. Right now folks like big/close lot's clean matches and matches are being judged by this standard. It may change and it may not. I have seen some large matches recently trying to take the sport back to how it was played 10-15 years ago and it's not really being received all that well. That being said I kinda like stages that "make" be more careful sometimes. It really steps up the challenge factor.

+1... the pendulum has definitely swung to this way of thinking. That said, my own taste for major matches is exactly what Snakebite has outlined. To me, the world, nat'l, reg, state should have at least ONE no alibi, no BS test- of- skill- slightly outside the box.

[Patagonia Pete]

Scenario #1

 

Rifle=10 rounds.

Shoot down falling targets (5 targets) using up to 10 rounds. Once all falling targets are down, place any remaining rounds on the "Dump" target.

Any falling targets that are not down are counted as a miss, and any misses on the dump target are counted as a miss.

 

 

Scenario #2

 

Rifle=10 rounds.

Shoot down falling targets (5 targets), then shoot the dump target 5 times.

All misses count.

> snip <

 

Sorry ... I'm doing an add-on here ... repeating what many have already said (they type faster I guess) ... but ...

 

Hopefully … in the first scenario (you have described) it would allow a creative MD to introduce targets that (otherwise) might seem unreasonable to the majority of shooters if scored as “usual” … (like a plate rack with 4-8 inch knockdowns … etc etc).

 

IMHO … by allowing the shooters to use “all” their rounds to eliminate the primary target set … everyone feels like they have a “chance” and allows the “better” shooters an opportunity to capitalize on the situation as well.

 

A faster shooter will dispatch the primary target set more quickly than less “accomplished” shooters and have the opportunity to dump “5” super fast as they are accustomed too.

 

A less “accomplished” shooter will have the opportunity to engage something more difficult than they normally see (otherwise it wouldn’t be such a problem anyhow) and set the seed to encourage them to start working on improving their performance (precision).

 

The scenario you describe allows them to shoot the match and “have a chance” as otherwise they might choose to avoid such matches altogether as they think they are just not good enough yet.

 

I don’t think spray and pray should be the rule of the road but I suspect a lot of face to face gunfights may not have been a demonstration of precision and composure. I wouldn’t be surprised that many who prevailed did so because they could reload the fastest. (I have never forgot the scene with Will Cane laying on the floor reloading his revolver … High Noon) …

 

-

 

The second scenario doesn’t look like it is giving anything away (if you don’t hit something with every round you get a miss) … We have done this is the past a lot … and it is neat when the “Dump” target is out at rifle range (on in between … or some type of novelty target) and used for both the rifle and pistols/revolvers.

 

IMHO as always … (it is cool that MDs and Range Masters rotate … it allows different things to get “put out there” and usually makes it more fun/interesting for all the different skill levels (the best stuff of course … are those that are tolerable by the widest audience and keeps the most people happy).

 

Pete

[Utah Bob #35998]

I don't think it encourages poor marksmanship.

I think it encourages fun.

It's all about the fun imho.

[Grizzly Dave]

Where I shoot there is occasionally one of these situations, and it is welcomed. Variety is the spice of life.

 

While I enjoy plate racks and the 'free misses' from time to time, I wouldn't want a steady diet of them. Same would hold true for the Texas Star, flyers, and other such targets.

 

And in the case of flyers and the Texas Star, I think makeup targets, either with shotgun or rifle reload are appropriate as there are a lot of shooters who don't have the luxury to practice the star, or have much experience with flyers.

 

Grizz

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

+1... the pendulum has definitely swung to this way of thinking. That said, my own taste for major matches is exactly what Snakebite has outlined. To me, the world, nat'l, reg, state should have at least ONE no alibi, no BS test- of- skill- slightly outside the box.

 

BK, I should clarify that I'm not crazy about being to put shots into the dirt. I also agree that out major matches should be tests of skills. I think Winter Range does a outstanding job of mixing fun with a championship caliber match. It's a fine line for a MD to walk. But it can be done.

[Marlin Buckhorn,SASS 51727]

It would appear that the RO Committee would like to add the job of Match Director to its duties.

[Utah Bob #35998]

.. Variety is the spice of life.

 

 

There ya go.

[Snakebite]

Thanks everyone... and keep them comming. I ask for your opinion and truely do want it. No doubt that my background, training and shooting practices call for a hit on every target. There is also no doubt that our Cowboy game does indeed have a larger number of "New to Shooting" participants than just about any other shooting game/sport that I can think of. I will take everyone's input in a positive manner. I like a lot of action, with very few "Stand and Deliver" stages.. (this is Cowboy Action Shooting). I do, however, want to give the folks who attend our matches what THEY want.

 

Just a side note: I must say that our small little club has produced a fair number of shooters that regularly place high in their categories.. if not in the match. I think that part of that comes from shooting a little tighter course of fire.

 

TNX... I'll ponder.

 

Snakebite

[Snakebite]

It would appear that the RO Committee would like to add the job of Match Director to its duties.

 

 

Yeah... thanks for the sarcastic input.. Its that kind of talk that really brings the wire down. I just happen to be a Match Director who wants to give folks what they want. What have you done for the game?

 

Snakebite

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Thanks everyone... and keep them comming. I ask for your opinion and truely do want it. No doubt that my background, training and shooting practices call for a hit on every target. There is also no doubt that our Cowboy game does indeed have a larger number of "New to Shooting" participants than just about any other shooting game/sport that I can think of. I will take everyone's input in a positive manner. I like a lot of action, with very few "Stand and Deliver" stages.. (this is Cowboy Action Shooting). I do, however, want to give the folks who attend our matches what THEY want.

 

Just a side note: I must say that our small little club has produced a fair number of shooters that regularly place high in their categories.. if not in the match. I think that part of that comes from shooting a little tighter course of fire.

 

TNX... I'll ponder.

 

Snakebite

 

Yup - and I work trhe 'action' of my guns as fast as I can

 

GG ~

[Marlin Buckhorn,SASS 51727]

Snakebite

 

I was expecting that response from you. If this was your opinion only you could have stated stated that in your first post. Since "RO Committee Member" is prominently displayed in your header it would seem appropriate for you to make such a statement you would want non-RO comments to be noted as that. People who have started your type of post have been shouted down by others to start your own game. Northern California apparently has their own game let the rest of us enjoy ours.

 

Now then I apologize, can you?

 

Marlin

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

It would appear that the RO Committee would like to add the job of Match Director to its duties.

 

Yeah... thanks for the sarcastic input.. Its that kind of talk that really brings the wire down. I just happen to be a Match Director who wants to give folks what they want. What have you done for the game?

 

Snakebite

Hello,

 

Excuse me Snakebite, I've seen you write sarcastic posts. Shall we comment whenever you do that about your bringing the Wire down? Pot, Kettle?

 

Now, in your defense...

 

Marlin, Snakebite is an individual, in addition to being on the ROC, and he has acted at MD at many annual matches. This has nothing to do with the ROC (I hope).

 

Now, about your alternate scenarios, I'd shoot either without complaint. The neat thing about reengaging targets until down is that we get to shoot more and have a better chance at a "clean match." Some of us have no hope of ever being fast and like to try for a version of clean. Using the Comstock convention with KDs helps us.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Snakebite

 

I was expecting that response from you. If this was your opinion only you could have stated stated that in your first post. Since "RO Committee Member" is prominently displayed in your header it would seem appropriate for you to make such a statement you would want non-RO comments to be noted as that. People who have started your type of post have been shouted down by others to start your own game. Northern California apparently has their own game let the rest of us enjoy ours.

 

Now then I apologize, can you?

 

Marlin

Now Marlin,

 

I resent your negative implication that Northern California plays the game differently. Talk about a back handed apology.

 

I am of the opinion that variety is good.

 

It appears that I do not prefer the same things Snakebite does. However, when I do go to an annual match, I don't like them to resemble all the other annual matches. I really enjoyed the Western Regional. It was like night and day to our matches at Cowboy Town, which are not like the things Snakebite mentioned a preference for either. That is what makes going to different areas fun.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS I do agree every bullet should have a target, even if it is a dump plate.

[Doc Shapiro]

<snip>

 

Just a side note: I must say that our small little club has produced a fair number of shooters that regularly place high in their categories.. if not in the match. I think that part of that comes from shooting a little tighter course of fire.

 

TNX... I'll ponder.

 

Snakebite

 

You're missing the point of being a MD if what you're trying to do is to train the shooters. Many aren't interested in getting better. They want to come out, see their friends, be social, and have a good time. THAT is what a MD should be striving for. After all, an MD is in the entertainment business - not the shooting training business.

 

I recall a stage at Mule Camp 10 years or so back where we had to intentionally miss a large target (18x24) in every string. Difficult and challenging. It's not so easy to break your training in such a way. It was quite a bit of fun too. That stage was a winner. It was fun.

 

I also believe that you and I have had this conversation before!

[Buckshot Frank]

I think that Scenario #1 gives you a chance to place some targets at a longer than normal distance. This keeps things interesting with some challenging shots while not punishing people for missing them.

[Irish Red OToole, #48939]

You're missing the point of being a MD if what you're trying to do is to train the shooters. Many aren't interested in getting better. They want to come out, see their friends, be social, and have a good time. THAT is what a MD should be striving for. After all, an MD is in the entertainment business - not the shooting training business.

 

I recall a stage at Mule Camp 10 years or so back where we had to intentionally miss a large target (18x24) in every string. Difficult and challenging. It's not so easy to break your training in such a way. It was quite a bit of fun too. That stage was a winner. It was fun.

 

I also believe that you and I have had this conversation before!

Doc, you nailed it right on the head. Snakebite, a Match Director has to put fun, entertainment, and bringing shooters back to their event above things like "making better shooters". If that is your goal as a Match Director, I'll probably skip those matches you design becasue they probably won't be much fun. That said, I would shoot either scenario without worrying about it too much. All shooting is fun. There are just some things that are more fun than others.

 

And as for training shooters, my club tends to go in the opposite direction (big and close targets etc) and we seem to be no slouches when the standings are read....unless you would consider 4 EOT Overall Championships and 10 or more EOT Category Championships spread out among our club members to be nothing to mention. It isn't necessartily your scenarios that make the shooters better. It's hanging out with better shooters that makes the "lesser" shooters better. Watching what they do and seeing how they approach a stage and then adopting their style to blend in with yours will make a better shooter faster than a tougher scenario. Just my opinion.

[Irish Red OToole, #48939]

One other thing no one has mentioned yet....Bordertown (or as it is also known, The Arizona State Championship) doesn't seem to have any trouble filling to capacity on shooters just days after opening their enrollment. And anyone that has been there knows those folks are the masters of fast and furious, big and close targets. Do you think they worry about training better shooters or putting on a match that there is WAITING LIST to get into?

 

Anyone from Bordertown want to chime in on this one?

[Manatee]

I'll be at yer match this weekend Snakebite. Clyde too.

 

Don't be putting them itty bitty targets out at 25 yards or I'll go shoot skeet instead.

[Jack Houston # 35508]

I'll take all the FREE MISSES YOU GOT!!!

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Scenario #1

 

Rifle=10 rounds.

Shoot down falling targets (5 targets) using up to 10 rounds. Once all falling targets are down, place any remaining rounds on the "Dump" target.

Any falling targets that are not down are counted as a miss, and any misses on the dump target are counted as a miss.

 

 

Scenario #2

 

Rifle=10 rounds.

Shoot down falling targets (5 targets), then shoot the dump target 5 times.

All misses count.

 

 

 

It seems to me that the last few years have seen a rise in scenarios that encourage poor marksmanship. I am very aware that we are a speed/action game, but I have ALWAYS believed and as a MD have always practiced the idea that EVERY BULLET SHOULD HAVE A TARGET. I don't care for the idea of allowing the shooter to shoot into space or into the ground without being charged with a miss. I am also not a fan of allowing shooters to pick up misses using the shotgun. This idea of providing everyone with a methode of shooting a clean match is also just another bunch of huey. Why not just give them a Clean Match certificat in their Shooter's Packet. What's wrong with just having the shooter shoot the targets, and count any misses that s/he may have....Simple idea isn't it?

 

Snakebite

Scenario 2 is why I don't like to shoot some matches. Small targets (many knockdowns are plate racks or small shotgun knockdowns) at longer distances. These match directors are trying to penalize faster shooters, but all they do is provide less fun for the rest. It is not our job as match directors to make marksman out of our customers. If you want targets needing marksmanship, find some other sport or shoot long range side matches.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

If gun dunt go BOOM, then it's a miss......unless reloaded of course...

 

CC

[Guest Winchester Jack, SASS #70195]

Scenario 2 is why I don't like to shoot some matches. Small targets (many knockdowns are plate racks or small shotgun knockdowns) at longer distances. These match directors are trying to penalize faster shooters, but all they do is provide less fun for the rest. It is not our job as match directors to make marksman out of our customers. If you want targets needing marksmanship, find some other sport or shoot long range side matches.

+1

[Olen Rugged]

Scenario #1

 

Rifle=10 rounds.

Shoot down falling targets (5 targets) using up to 10 rounds. Once all falling targets are down, place any remaining rounds on the "Dump" target.

Any falling targets that are not down are counted as a miss, and any misses on the dump target are counted as a miss...

 

 

At recent benefit match we did something similar:

Shoot down 5 falling targets using up to 10 rounds rifle. Any remaining rounds to go on the dump with each hit counting as a 1 second bonus. So misses had a cost, albeit low.

 

The stage was well received. Fastest time was 8.14 (with 4 hits on the dump).

 

Olen

[twelve mile REB]

First of all misses that can be made up are NOT free. It takes time to reengage a target. Many times I seen shooters take more than 5 sec. to avoid the miss. So should we also score an ejected round or one that failed to fire as a miss? I dont think so, but were would the majority of the misses fall. Not at the top but at the middle and lower end of the finishers for my money keep the makeups they help a lot of people have fun

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