Marauder SASS #13056 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 . . . But think a few words or a sentence or two should be added to make it very clear what it should be. That's what the congressman said about the IRS code. It really needs to be spelled out in detail - in about 100 different places with slightly different working and interpretation. Then we will have a really clear, specific handbook!!! :D In some cases, clarification can certainly be helpful, but if you want it totally spelled out to where everything is covered..... I think some don't realize what they are asking for. Classic example - in 2000 some wanted to charge a P + misses if you hit the wrong target. They feared that someone would cheat and shoot the rifle at big close pistol targets and only get a P. They wanted to be able to award penalties possibly totally 60 seconds for such a situation. So they added a very short phrase to do just that. Since that time, we have added a flow chart and multiple pages to the handbook to try to straighten out that "little correction" - which I always believed was a big mistake in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone SASS #36388 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Ok, I have read most of the post. I might have missed one or two. The Call is a Match Disqualification anytime and every time this happens on the Bar 3 Ranch. As the Ranch owner I find in this occurrence that the penalty is warranted and correct. If you own a range YOU can call it anyway you see fit. On the Bar 3 Ranch and Range during any event this situation will result in a MDQ.... That's all.... They quit making percussion pistols in 1872, there might of been a good reason for that... Cowboy shooters and history buffs brought them back.. Hell they are not even considered a firearm by BATF regulations... So now whats the call... Still a Match Disqualification.... Enough said,, lets move on to something that happens more than once in a Lifetime..... See Y'all in Vegas. Oh Yea, stop by the Bar 3 and shoot sometime... T-Bone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Ok, I have read most of the post. I might have missed one or two. The Call is a Match Disqualification anytime and every time this happens on the Bar 3 Ranch. As the Ranch owner I find in this occurrence that the penalty is warranted and correct. If you own a range YOU can call it anyway you see fit. On the Bar 3 Ranch and Range during any event this situation will result in a MDQ.... That's all.... They quit making percussion pistols in 1872, there might of been a good reason for that... Cowboy shooters and history buffs brought them back.. Hell they are not even considered a firearm by BATF regulations... So now whats the call... Still a Match Disqualification.... Enough said,, lets move on to something that happens more than once in a Lifetime..... See Y'all in Vegas. Oh Yea, stop by the Bar 3 and shoot sometime... T-Bone Good enuff for me!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Bob Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Thank you T-Bone. Didn't have a problem when it happened. Don't have a problem with it now, even with all that's been posted. Work willing, we will see ya in 2 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone SASS #36388 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Thanks Bob,, next chaper of another book.... T-Bone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I am sure that he is all you say, but I thought his comments required a clear response. From what he said, he was having problems with his caps going off. No. I don't have any problems with my caps going off. I read this article once, "Frontiersman for Dummies," and now my percussion pistols work wonderfully well. I was making the point that, all theories aside, in practice it's much easier to fire a modern primer than any cap on the market. Nipples are recessed in cylinders, as are the firing pins in conversion cylinders. Both would take the same sort of "lucky" sharp object at point of impact to fire either one. But it would take less force to fire the primer. Dropping either one would be as dangerous as dropping a loaded pistol, more so if the loaded pistol had a transfer bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Ok, I have read most of the post. I might have missed one or two. The Call is a Match Disqualification anytime and every time this happens on the Bar 3 Ranch. As the Ranch owner I find in this occurrence that the penalty is warranted and correct. If you own a range YOU can call it anyway you see fit. On the Bar 3 Ranch and Range during any event this situation will result in a MDQ.... That's all.... They quit making percussion pistols in 1872, there might of been a good reason for that... Cowboy shooters and history buffs brought them back.. Hell they are not even considered a firearm by BATF regulations... So now whats the call... Still a Match Disqualification.... Enough said,, lets move on to something that happens more than once in a Lifetime..... See Y'all in Vegas. Oh Yea, stop by the Bar 3 and shoot sometime... T-Bone It's SASS standards, customs and practice to allow individual ranges to moderate some rules. At CAC/ Bar 3 there is the "plant and poke" for example which requires a shooter to STOP before loading a S/G even before closing the action. Clearly this is within the purview of any club/range, much like say, "one over the berm" is a MDQ at some clubs. Most of these rules are clearly stated ahead of time. And as has been observed here in several posts this is one of those instances that may in fact be a once in a lifetime occurance not requiring a new rule of any kind nor could it possibly be stated ahead of time. Well, until now that is! This has been a great thread IMNSHO. The most revealing to me in the discussion is the disparity in the penalty awarded for the infraction. I know that if I had been RO I would NOT have called it. However, I can see that the majority agree that losing control of a loaded gun part which carries with it some manner of risk (real or imagined) is not to be taken lightly. And I find myself agreeing that a major penalty must be accessed for losing control of any part of a loaded gun that is PURPOSELY attempted to be disassembled in any way. If a shotgun falls apart because a wrist pin breaks then.... that's different.... or if your gun belt buckle breaks...etc.. is very, very different. History shows that too often gun related accidents occur when cleaning and dissassembling guns/ actions and ammuntion. Perhaps I took the incident too lightly in the beginning. That said, the rule or infraction and penalty award could certainly use a bit more finely worded clause to insure that all shooters understand the risks when making the choice between clearing a gun and fixing a gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCatcher Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Why all the controversy? The rule is very clear: a dropped loaded gun is a MDQ. A capped loaded cylinder is a pepperbox capable of dealing death and destruction. A pepperbox is a gun. MDQ. Next shooter. An apple is a fruit. A fruit is a banana. An apple is a banana. In other words - your logic is faulty. SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I think post #113 should end this discussion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 An apple is a fruit. A fruit is a banana. An apple is a banana. In other words - your logic is faulty. SC A fruit is not a banana... For those that care...which would probably total...zero...I agree with T-Bone that it should be a MDQ. Reason? 'cuz of my belief that the intent of the dropped loaded gun rule was violated. I don't believe that the whole...complete gun is necessary. If my stock on my rifle breaks off as I'm moving with my rifle and the whole gun minus the stock falls to the ground...is that not the same as if I simply dropped the whole gun WITH the stock? Which again leads to the other side of the question and the part that I find interesting is what defines a "Gun"? Since I look at this as a safety issue, I think that the dropped gun rule is there to keep us alert as to not drop something that can seriously hurt or kill someone. Therefore it must be that "part" that both carries or contains a round. Therefore, a cylinder would be a "Gun". A receiver...by itself, no. A barrel...yes. The ejector housing? nope... Interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 The controversy seems to be that there are some who don't believe the capped cylinder is as dangerous as a gun. How about a few volunteers to drop a loaded and capped cylinder? I do not want to be on the same side of the berm when they do it. CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I think post #113 should end this discussion! Only if you think this discussion was about a rule call at the Bar 3. If that was the point then it could have ended when Tbone made the call. Obviously he/ the MD/ etc. were perfectly within their rights as a club/range. It could then simply have been a local MD made a call based on local rules. But, that isn't the spirit of the game, right? At the same match a call was overturned and later discovered that it was the right call.... benefit to the shooter and any other shooter for the whole match. That's the right thing to do as well. If the RO Committee representative calls it a SDQ and a local MD calls it a MDQ based on the same rule then the discrepancy in the penalty award needs some serious consideration. The controversy seems to be that there are some who don't believe the capped cylinder is as dangerous as a gun. How about a few volunteers to drop a loaded and capped cylinder? I do not want to be on the same side of the berm when they do it. CR Yeah, but I'll stand there and watch you throw your new Colt hammer down on an empty in the dirt over and over and over and over. "AS DANGEROUS" isn't the rule.... I think this time the Phantom has it right. The rule is there so that we take dropping things very seriously. Except that, I don't believe that a '97 coming apart in three separate pieces or a SXS coming apart at the wrist pins such that the shooter is holding 2/3's of a gun is the same as dropping something or PURPOSELY taking a gun apart for any reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Hi Folks, If PWB says it is a SDQ at a SASS match, so be it, unless announced otherwise. If T-Bone says it is a MDQ at his range, so be it. However, it seems to me that dropping a capped cylinder (although technically not a gun ), is just as dangerous as dropping a loaded gun and is probably even more dangerous. IMO, safety rules should reflect how dangerous the action was, not a technicality that places it in a specific type of penalty. Regards, Allie "who hopes this does not get her elevated on 'the list'" Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Presidio Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Please see post #84. Tests have been performed to obtain data regarding velocity of bullets/balls fired from 'free standing' percussion cylinders. The deeper the bullet is set (i.e. less powder = more room = longer "barrel") the higher the velocity obtained. So far no one has volunteered to do a 'drop test' using the R&D/Kirst cartridge conversion cylinders (with removable firing pin plate) to see which way they tend to land when dropped...or whether they remain assembled until impact. Done it a number of years ago. R&D cylinder loaded with .45 blanks with shield/pin plate banded together with the cylinder and dropped about 4 feet a number of times to similiar ground found at most ranges. None went off - but in no way would, or could, this be conclusive and put the issue to rest. Did it unbanded, too. About half the time it came apart and some shells came lose or fell from the cylinder. Again, this ain't conclusive. The point I suppose is this. Murphy lives.....and the chance and opprotunity to pounce will always be there for something to go wrong. A capped and dropped C&B cylinder is just asking for all kind of things to go very wrong all at once. I firmly believe that these muddied waters need to be cleaned up and a made clear as to the potential danger so that it is fairly applied to all concerned. This is a safety rule that REALLY needs to be addressed and put in black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taquila Tab, Sass #25048 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 An apple is a fruit. A fruit is a banana. An apple is a banana. Great, now we're introducing Algebra into the mix. If A=B and B=C, then A must = C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Yeah, but I'll stand there and watch you throw your new Colt hammer down on an empty in the dirt over and over and over and over. "AS DANGEROUS" isn't the rule.... I think this time the Phantom has it right. The rule is there so that we take dropping things very seriously. I agree that "hammer down on an empty" is safer by far than a capped and loaded C&B cylinder - AND with the premise that dropping things as potentially dangerous as a loaded gun should be taken very seriously. SDQ or MDQ equates to serious. CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kougarok George Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I shoot Frontiersman and have followed this topic very closely. Was this a safety violation? As in an unsafe act that should not be done. Yes. If your loaded pistol or rifle without a round in the chamber hits the ground we agree that is a MDQ. Now which is more likely an less safer action. Dropping a loaded cartridge handgun with hammer on an empty or Dropping a loaded and capped percussion cylinder? If dropping the percussion cylinder is potentially more dangerous, then dropping a firearm do we need a written rule to forbid it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Hi George, Rules do not prevent accidents. They just attempt to ensure that folks will be more careful. I'm not sure even that works. Then, I never claimed to have all the answers, just a bunch of opinions that have been known to change. I sure do wish I was always right about things. Sigh! I wish that we would never need to ponder these things. Regards, Allie "who admires our Frontiersmen, especially after last weekend seeing them shoot in rain and snow" MO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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