Once in a lifetime...You make the call

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Ok, lets be specific about what I mean when I say that a cap is easier to set off than a primer.

 

A primer has an "anvil" inside a cup. Between the anvil and the cup is the priming material. In order to set it off, you have to hit the primer with a firing pin in such a manner that the priming material is pinched between the the cup and the anvil. If you hit it off to the side, it will not fire. If you hit the primer with a flat object, it will not fire. If you drop a loaded round, unless you drop it exactly on a pointed object that acts like a firing pin, it will not fire. As such, dropping a loaded round is very unlikely to set it off.

 

A cap does have an anvil, this function is served by the nipple. The copper cap is soft and the priming material fills the entire end. The cap is set off by being forced down on the nipple. There is nothing that prevents the cap from sliding on the nipple and, unlike a primer, it does not have to be hit in a specific spot by a pointy firing pin. While on the nipple, a strike anywhere on the end of the cap will pinch the priming material and set it off. As such, it is much easier for a dropped capped cylinder to go off than a dropped cartridge (or even a dropped loaded cartridge cylinder).

 

In addition, if a cartridge did go off, the force involved in minimal since the case simply ruptures. A cylinder from a cap and ball gun contains the force and gives the projectile velocity. If you disagree, you need look no further than a pepper-box revolver, which has no barrel, only a cylinder.

 

As for why you have problems getting you caps to go off? There are plenty of reasons why that could be, often including poorly set up guns, incorrect caps etc. A properly loaded C&B revolver is no less reliable (and certainly no slower) than an SAA.

 

Just my thoughts.

Knowing Capt George Baylor as I do, I expect he has the best cap and ball guns, set up in the best manner possible by the best gunsmiths and loaded properly. I would believe any thing he has to say on the subject of cap and ball revolvers, he is very credible. Haven't you read any of his articles in the CC or seen his web site? Get to shoot with him a lot in Az in the winter, including last weekend.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Howdy BK,

How about this for a non-specific & subjective rule:

 

RO1 p.26

 

...not that the act of disassembling the firearm itself is inherently unsafe...but losing control of LOADED & CAPPED cylinder could be considered as such.

You bet, now I got some reasonably cautious RO who wets his pants because I've got my screwknife out digging out a split case with another jammin' the carrier and trying to shove that back into the mag tube holding the carrier down with my thumb while he screams STOP STOP STOP becuase he's only got a Marlin and thinks if the POS is jammed then he has to unscrew the lever assembly so just as I get it all unjammed attempting to not leave 8 or 9 in the gun he wets his pants and starts adding up SOG/MS/MISSES/MDQ for "disassembling" (all under his new interpretation of badgepower) at the World Championships so I miss the only chance forever of beating TBONE who happened to forget to load both pistols and his rifle and fainted from food poisoning on stage 2.

 

Oh well... coulda been a contenda....

[J-BAR #18287]

Fun thread!!

 

The only reason I can see for a shooter attempting to clear a jam by disassembling the gun is trying to shoot a clean match, because it sure is going to take more time than just eating the misses.

 

So I think this kind of situation can be avoided if we place less emphasis on clean matches and put more emphasis on speed and winning...right??

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

You bet, now I got some reasonably cautious RO who wets his pants because I've got my screwknife out digging out a split case with another jammin' the carrier and trying to shove that back into the mag tube holding the carrier down with my thumb while he screams STOP STOP STOP becuase he's only got a Marlin and thinks if the POS is jammed then he has to unscrew the lever assembly so just as I get it all unjammed attempting to not leave 8 or 9 in the gun he wets his pants and starts adding up SOG/MS/MISSES/MDQ for "disassembling" (all under his new interpretation of badgepower) at the World Championships so I miss the only chance forever of beating TBONE who happened to forget to load both pistols and his rifle and fainted from food poisoning on stage 2.

 

Oh well... coulda been a contenda....

 

IIRC...(and you quoted what I'd posted...did you READ it??)

...I neither said nor implied that disassembling a malfunctioning firearm on the clock is unsafe.

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

I neither said nor implied that disassembling a malfunctioning firearm on the clock is unsafe.

 

Exactly!! If you hold a rifle between your knees, upside down, butt on the ground, pointed kinda downrange, you can remove the mag tube plug. When the compressed spring launches the plug/cap and the spring beyond the pistol targets you may grasp the rifle by the barrel, drag the butt over to where the shotgun is staged, grab the shotgun, and take both downrange to retrieve the plug/cap. Then do all the same in reverse and complete the stage...

 

Now for the pistol repair scenario...

 

All of that has to be easier than grounding the gun, completing the stage, and then getting with the Match Director who can give a re-shoot or penalty if needed.

[Doc Coles SASS 1188]

Doc, can ya point out where this was stated, as I'm unable to find my mention of getting someone shot. Still looking tho.

 

 

I was the one who mentioned a sucking chest wound, which is a pretty common symptom of gun shot. You said that there was no rule against it, which sounded a lot like a pretty offhand response to a safety issue.

 

Anyway, arguing about this is pointless.

[Doc Coles SASS 1188]

Knowing Capt George Baylor as I do, I expect he has the best cap and ball guns, set up in the best manner possible by the best gunsmiths and loaded properly. I would believe any thing he has to say on the subject of cap and ball revolvers, he is very credible. Haven't you read any of his articles in the CC or seen his web site? Get to shoot with him a lot in Az in the winter, including last weekend.

 

 

I am sure that he is all you say, but I thought his comments required a clear response. From what he said, he was having problems with his caps going off.

[Dubious Don #56333]

C&B shooter fires one round from their pistol and the spent Cap jams. Can't clear it...so shooter removes the wedge to loosen up the cylinder...oops, cylinder falls to the ground with 4 chambers still capped.

 

What the call?

 

 

Well, a cylinder ain't a gun so it ain't a "dropped gun MDQ". But wait, there's more.....

 

TO's should be familiar with the firearms used; if you pull the cylinder pin on a 58 Remmie, the cylinder's gonna fall out. If you take out the wedge on a '51, '60 and the like, which then allows the barrel to slide foreward, the cylinder would have been able to go forward enough WITHOUT THE BARREL COMING OFF to clear the jam. Sounds like in this case the barrel came all the way off which would allow the LOADED cylinder to slide completely off. This isn't something that take a second. The TO would have had PLENTY of time to see what the shooter was doing, SHOULD have recognized the HAZARD and stopped the shooter. TO should be awarded a rap on the bean fer not paying better attention.

 

Pieces/parts like barrels that fly off AND ARE NOT CAPABLE OF FIRING A ROUND are a no call IMO. A shooter should, in certain instances be able to SAFELY (that there is a key word) disassemble a firearm on the firing line to clear a jam and should be able to do it SAFELY. Safely means without hazard.

 

A LOADED CAPPED cylinder is very much capable of firing if the thing lands on the cap side and is AN EXTREME HAZARD. I'd award a MDQ to the shooter because he certainly should have known better.

[Dubious Don #56333]

Hmm, now that I read all the responses.....I'll amend my previous post;

 

Should a SAS-style shooter do the same thing, disassemble a LOADED cylinder and drop it on the ground, I do believe I would award the same penalty (MDQ) That action was just as stupid, (yes I said STUPID) and had just as much risk of injury as a dropped capped C&B cylinder. I would expect that the rounds would have slid out on the way to the ground but.....there ya go. I would also advise said shooter that he would be advised to protest my MDQ call in the hopes that the other match officials higher up would take pity on sich a poor soul and grant him perhaps, a SDQ. (I thought long and hard about MDQ v SDQ.....naw, MDQ.)

 

Caps and primers can and DO go bang when struck with sufficient force. Seen enough rounds go off when dropped on rocks. (By golly gosh and gee-whiz, don'tcha know every range I been on so far gots ROCKS on the floor.....)

[Jacknife]

Hmm, now that I read all the responses.....I'll amend my previous post;

 

 

 

 

Ya don't do the same thing when ya are a counter, do ya? Poll the others spotters response and amend yours to match theirs?

[Jacknife]

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Yes, I read it... the rule that you quoted compared flagrantly fanning a revolver to the shooter's attempt to mitigate his loss of 4 misses left in the cylinder. It doesn't apply in this case. The clear intent of that rule is to prevent show- boating not to prevent unclearing a jam or returning a gun to service.

 

My point is that lacking definition, (for example, A shooter may work to alleviate a jam, but any loaded part from firing line to unloading table that leaves the shooter's immediate control will result in an immeditate CEASE FIRE and MDQ.)

 

Otherwise, you have tacitly given the RO power to interpret the shooter's attempt to recover as 'unsafe gun handling' in one case and 'hope you didn't scratch your Remmies' in another.

 

IMHO that could be a slippery slope as all manner of intrepation will result such that 'benefit to the shooter' is replaced by 'gotcha' in the form of a MDQ or SDQ or whatever happens to feel right at the time.

 

EDIT: DD, so it feels like a MDQ today but the next shooter is your good buddy and MDQ now seems a little harsh since he ALWAYS knows what's going on and you are ALWAYS payin' total, focused attention, right?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Yes, I read it... the rule that you quoted compared flagrantly fanning a revolver to the shooter's attempt to mitigate his loss of 4 misses left in the cylinder. It doesn't apply in this case. The clear intent of that rule is to prevent show- boating not to prevent unclearing a jam or returning a gun to service.

 

The reference to "fanning" in that rule is simply ONE example of "unsafe gun handling"...it is the act of DROPPING the cylinder that was determined to be UNSAFE and subject to a SDQ under that rule.

 

My point is that lacking definition, (for example, A shooter may work to alleviate a jam, but any loaded part from firing line to unloading table that leaves the shooter's immediate control will result in an immeditate CEASE FIRE and MDQ.)

 

Otherwise, you have tacitly given the RO power to interpret the shooter's attempt to recover as 'unsafe gun handling' in one case and 'hope you didn't scratch your Remmies' in another.

 

IMHO that could be a slippery slope as all manner of intrepation will result such that 'benefit to the shooter' is replaced by 'gotcha' in the form of a MDQ or SDQ or whatever happens to feel right at the time.

 

EDIT: DD, so it feels like a MDQ today but the next shooter is your good buddy and MDQ now seems a little harsh since he ALWAYS knows what's going on and you are ALWAYS payin' total, focused attention, right?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

In reference to the "unintended consequences" mentioned in post #42:

 

What about a shooter using a cartridge conversion cylinder (in either a Remington or Colt-style percussion revolver) without the loading gate modification ?

 

...the use of which REQUIRES the disassembly of the revolver and a LOADED cylinder complete with the firing pin plate (one or more firing pins, depending on manufacturer) OUTSIDE of the frame of the firearm.

 

The point being, having a LOADED cylinder (percussion, conversion, or cartridge) free of the revolver is not the issue...

LOSING CONTROL and DROPPING the cylinder IS...and there is a penalty to cover THAT action (without redefining "firearm")

...but NOT for taking a firearm apart for the purposes of either fixing a malfunction or loading/reloading.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

In reference to the "unintended consequences" mentioned in post #42:

 

What about a shooter using a cartridge conversion cylinder (in either a Remington or Colt-style percussion revolver) without the loading gate modification ?

 

...the use of which REQUIRES the disassembly of the revolver and a LOADED cylinder complete with the firing pin plate (one or more firing pins, depending on manufacturer) OUTSIDE of the frame of the firearm.

 

The point being, having a LOADED cylinder (percussion, conversion, or cartridge) free of the revolver is not the issue...

LOSING CONTROL and DROPPING the cylinder IS...and there is a penalty to cover THAT action (without redefining "firearm")

...but NOT for taking a firearm apart for the purposes of either fixing a malfunction or loading/reloading.

My memory is that the penalty for LOSING CONTROL and Dropping the cylinder is an SDQ NOT a MDQ. The penalty sited for UNSAFE HANDLING is a SDQ not a MDQ.

 

The penalty for dropping a loaded gun is a MDQ.

 

I understand that there is NO PENALTY for taking apart a firearm in a safe manner.

 

So which penalty properly applies to the OP? Some here have called for a MDQ. Neither of the sites you've given are MDQ awards.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

My memory is that the penalty for LOSING CONTROL and Dropping the cylinder is an SDQ NOT a MDQ.

 

The penalty cited for UNSAFE HANDLING is a SDQ not a MDQ.

 

The penalty for dropping a loaded gun is a MDQ.

 

I understand that there is NO PENALTY for taking apart a firearm in a safe manner.

 

So which penalty properly applies to the OP? Some here have called for a MDQ. Neither of the cites you've given are MDQ awards.

 

It is my understanding that the call made at the match was a SDQ.

(EDIT: Apparently I was misinformed...see post #113)

 

Yep.

Think the right call was made in the end.

(post #59)

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Therefore, it seems like what you're saying is that the penalty is totally up to the interpretation of the MD at the event.

 

If he's a hardass it's a MDQ and if it's his best ever buddy that he knows is always safe no matter what but just had a bad bounce then it's a SDQ.

 

Ok.. that's clear... and totally fair to all.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Therefore, it seems like what you're saying is that the penalty is totally up to the interpretation of the MD at the event.

 

If he's a hardass it's a MDQ and if it's his best ever buddy that he knows is always safe no matter what but just had a bad bounce then it's a SDQ.

 

Ok.. that's clear... and totally fair to all.

 

What is clear is that I've NEVER stated the applicable penalty as anything OTHER THAN a STAGE DQ.

Is that not the call that was made re: the OP?

 

(guess not...see post #113)

[Griff]

Before PWB fires off that answer Brother King, let me state that IF I understand the rule, unsafe gun-handling could net either a SDQ or MDQ. Though, I too, say one could safely take a C&B apart on the line; dropping parts, especially a loaded cylinder, wouldn't qualify.

 

With THAT said, I've had many a jammed cap, one of the specific reasons I don't shoot FGF. Only once to the point that I grounded/handed off the revolver. Every other time, I've been able to force it cleared using my off-hand. My ONLY question is... how the devil did he get the wedge out? I have to use a hammer of some sort to drive mine out!

 

Goody, I both agree and disagree with ya, In theory, yes, detailed, defined rules do let everyone have solid backing for their calls. But, in practice, the rule book would be so big you'd need a wheelbarrow to carry it. And calls would still get misapplied. And, you'd still have need of non-specific, subjective rules to cover any over-sights.

 

Ediited to add: PWB, obviously not all that clear.

4. Major safety infractions will result in the shooter’s Disqualification from the Stage or Match. “Major” infractions include: a dropped gun, a discharge that is unsafe or a discharge that impacts less than ten feet from the shooter, violation of the 170° safety rule, “sweeping” any person with the muzzle of a firearm, and similar acts that have high potential for personal injury. There are circumstances where a single Major Safety violation will result in a Match Disqualification. (See Addendum for listing of penalties.)

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Goody, I both agree and disagree with ya, In theory, yes, detailed, defined rules do let everyone have solid backing for their calls. But, in practice, the rule book would be so big you'd need a wheelbarrow to carry it. And calls would still get misapplied. And, you'd still have need of non-specific, subjective rules to cover any over-sights.

 

Ediited to add: PWB, obviously not all that clear.

 

Well, I would agree that it would indeed take a Funk and Wagnalls size book to spell everything out clearly. I was rebutting a previous post that seemed to say the main reason for the rules for the safety of all.

 

(info redacted)

[Noz]

This has turned into a bitter pissing match with no possible outcome other than PWB's statements.

Isn't it time it was closed?

[Capt Jeb Forrest]

This DID happen to me a couple years ago at a State BP match.

 

Hammer cocked, trigger pulled, cylinder discharged, cap fragment wedged between cylinder and frame/recoil shield.

 

Hammer would not cock or cylinder rotate, which essentially left me with hammer down on empty chamber. There was no hang fire, or cap poof, which might cause a cylinder to go off at a undetermined time. The cylinder was discharged.

 

I don't know why AJ thinks c&b cylinders are greasy, mine certainly are not. Keeping the '60 Colt pointed down range, and keeping my hand under the gun to minimize exposure, I pulled the wedge. On a properly set up Colt, it should not fall out or have to be completely removed to pull the barrel. The barrel with wedge was removed, pointing down range and placed on table/hay bale. Pulled cylinder with left hand, keeping it pointed down range and never set it down, so it was in my control. Turned frame upside down, cycled hammer to make sure it was clear and reassembled.

 

Completed stage. Yes, God forbid I spent more than the alloted 20 some seconds and "blew" the stage with a 60 something time.

 

There was nothing unsafe about, I had a sane and sensible TO who watched the whole time.

 

I agree with PWB, the penalty came about from the dropped cylinder, not the disassembly of the revolver.

[McCandless]

This DID happen to me a couple years ago at a State BP match.

 

Hammer cocked, trigger pulled, cylinder discharged, cap fragment wedged between cylinder and frame/recoil shield.

 

Hammer would not cock or cylinder rotate, which essentially left me with hammer down on empty chamber. There was no hang fire, or cap poof, which might cause a cylinder to go off at a undetermined time. The cylinder was discharged.

 

I don't know why AJ thinks c&b cylinders are greasy, mine certainly are not. Keeping the '60 Colt pointed down range, and keeping my hand under the gun to minimize exposure, I pulled the wedge. On a properly set up Colt, it should not fall out or have to be completely removed to pull the barrel. The barrel with wedge was removed, pointing down range and placed on table/hay bale. Pulled cylinder with left hand, keeping it pointed down range and never set it down, so it was in my control. Turned frame upside down, cycled hammer to make sure it was clear and reassembled.

 

Completed stage. Yes, God forbid I spent more than the alloted 20 some seconds and "blew" the stage with a 60 something time.

 

There was nothing unsafe about, I had a sane and sensible TO who watched the whole time.

 

I agree with PWB, the penalty came about from the dropped cylinder, not the disassembly of the revolver.

 

Way to stay with it JEB! Fortunately you had a table/hay bale. Seems like in this scenario the shooter didn't, and lacking a third hand, dropped the capped cylinder. If it hadn't been for that, woulda, coulda been clean. Nope, no problem until the "oops"! Then the call would have t' be "unsafe gun handling".

[Kid Ziggy SASS 76870]

We discussed this at length during CaC and I think this particular situation should be an MDQ. Charlie also brought up dropping a smokeless cylinder claiming that could be a problem too. I am not an expert on the matter and not sure I agree about the smokeless situation, but I do shoot C&B and would be just as uncomfortable with a dropped & capped cylinder as with a dropped loaded gun from a spectator or posse member perspective. IMHO, it ain't a NO CALL because of the safety issues.

 

I am not a fan of more & more rules, but this one should be addressed by defining that a charged & capped cylinder is the same as a loaded gun if dropped.

[Presidio]

Thanks, Johnny fer making a spin on things. Keeps the noogin' clear of cobwebs and such.

 

But, I don't believe the cylinder would fall free in your senario. The barrel, possible. It'd have to be pretty worn to do it, but it's possible. Reason being the cylinder won't come free like you suggested, is that the hammer is still down on an empty chamber. This effectively "locks" the cylinder in place. Remember, the hammer has to be in half-cock position for the cylinder to "spin" free of the arbor threading to be removed from the frame. That's for Colt style open tops, of course. For Remington types, the loading "ram" handle has to drop, cylinder pin slide all the forward, handgun in half-cock position to unlock the cylinder, and then the cylinder kinda has to "roll" out to the right.

 

So. Alot of little things have to happen for a cylinder drop to happen for either style of percussion pistol while drawing from a holster.

 

If'n it does manage to do this on its' own, tho...I'd be a bit hesistant in even shooting the durn thing cause sumptin' is already wrong or broke with the handgun from the very beginning. Or it's just so plum worn out and needs to be a wall hanger or a desk conversation piece anyway.

 

Just my two cents fer a short bus ride someday.

[Jack Houston # 35508]

I agree that the final interpretation rest on the Match Director, because 'firearm' is not defined in SASS rules. The ATF example is not the same.

 

Now make it complicated:

 

What if the shooter was drawing the C&B from the holster and the barrel and cylinder fell off? The wedge had come out and it was not the shooters doing.

 

Would the opinion be the same?

YES!!! It Would the shooters doing, he wasn't keeping his equipment in good working order!! Should check pistols at loading table!

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

YES!!! It Would the shooters doing, he wasn't keeping his equipment in good working order!! Should check pistols at loading table!

Thanks for putting a fine point on my point, Jack and Zigmeister.

 

Jack, if a S/G comes apart (SXS or '97) it's a no call. But a C&G coming apart is a MDQ? BS.

 

ZIG... if you award a MDQ and Ace awards a SDQ and PWB a SDQ and all the others a MDQ then.....to quote my old mentor and CPO:

 

THIS WHOLE THING IS AS F****D up as a SOUP SANDWICH!

 

I'm not disagreeing with anyone... I'm disagreeing with everyone that has a call for this situation based on a total lack of a rule that can possibly be fairly applied and a penalty that is consistently awarded.

[Jacknife]

------------ based on a total lack of a rule that can possibly be fairly applied and a penalty that is consistently awarded.

 

 

Ya will never have the rules fairly applied in this game. Lot of it depends on who the shooter is, as to how the rules are applied. Not all of em are applied consistently, as we can see here.

[Presidio]

Presidio,

 

The point is not about can the cylinder fall to the ground. It can. As cocking, it would spin freely and if it were being raised at the time, gravity could take over.

 

 

My redirect is just eliminating the handling of the gun by the shooter and making it less of an overt act.

 

 

I think the final outcome is the same. Just as if your belt breaks and the guns bounce out of the holster when the rig hits the ground. It is not a careless act, but still a dropped gun.

 

 

Not every situation can be spelled out in the rule book.

 

 

Ahhhh. I think I see where you're coming from. I agree on all points ya' made, Johnny.

But, like I explained on the mechanics and nature of these guns...alot of things have to happen, in order, for this to happen while on the draw.

 

I'd more likely see the gunbelt come lose senario than I would the other. As far as rules, you get no arguement or debate from me there. Cause I still miss the old 12 page backpocket paperback we got from SASS when we first signed up.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

While SASS and ATF may not define what a gun is Meriam Webster says a gun is; a device that throws a projectile. With that definition the cylinder was a dropped, loaded gun. Of course we should form a committe to accept this definition.

Ike

[Presidio]

Johnny, I'd have to defer on that to the powers that be.

 

But, a little investigating into the overall condition of the despairing gun would be the first thing to do in my book. Then maybe a determination could be made from there.

 

Now if'n that ain't a crab-walk...I don't know what is!

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Why all the controversy?

 

The rule is very clear: a dropped loaded gun is a MDQ.

 

A capped loaded cylinder is a pepperbox capable of dealing death and destruction.

 

A pepperbox is a gun.

 

MDQ.

 

Next shooter.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Why all the controversy?

 

The rule is very clear: a dropped loaded gun is a MDQ.

 

A capped loaded cylinder is a pepperbox capable of dealing death and destruction.

 

A pepperbox is a gun.

 

MDQ.

 

Next shooter.

Great! Another MDQ when the call according to PWB is a SDQ. No idea why there would be a controversy. Not much difference between a MDQ and a SDQ really is there?

[Anvil Al #59168]

If Palewolf says SDQ. That is what I would call from here on out.

 

Even if personally I thing it SHOULD be a MDQ.

 

But think a few words or a sentence or two should be added to make it very clear what it should be.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I do not consider thinking about the possibilities as controversy. Everyone is permitted an opinion.

 

The rule is clear that a dropped loaded gun is a MDQ. But the term 'gun' is open to interpretation and subject to many thoughts. By definition under law, a cap and ball gun is not a firearm, but in SASS it is. We should not ignore all sides of the issue.

 

I am interested in all thoughts on this. What if it were a cartridge cylinder and the shells stay in? Is the probability of a discharge what decides the definition of a gun?

JM

 

Please see post #84.

 

Tests have been performed to obtain data regarding velocity of bullets/balls fired from 'free standing' percussion cylinders.

The deeper the bullet is set (i.e. less powder = more room = longer "barrel") the higher the velocity obtained.

 

So far no one has volunteered to do a 'drop test' using the R&D/Kirst cartridge conversion cylinders (with removable firing pin plate) to see which way they tend to land when dropped...or whether they remain assembled until impact.