Once in a lifetime...You make the call

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

C&B shooter fires one round from their pistol and the spent Cap jams. Can't clear it...so shooter removes the wedge to loosen up the cylinder...oops, cylinder falls to the ground with 4 chambers still capped.

 

What the call?

 

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

I'll take a stab at it...

 

A lot of wasted time... and 4 misses... shoulda just grounded the gun.. take the 4 misses.. and go on..

 

Rance

Good meetin' and visitin' with ya at CAC Phantom

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

The call is, "OH SH**!" Followed by, "where did it go?" Then... "the clock is running".

 

Cylinder isn't a gun. The same as a S/G falling in half onto the ground. If the shooter wants to waste his stage putting it back together it's ok by me.

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

The call is, "OH SH**!" Followed by, "where did it go?" Then... "the clock is running".

 

Cylinder isn't a gun. The same as a S/G falling in half onto the ground. If the shooter wants to waste his stage putting it back together it's ok by me.

 

 

Half a shotgun won't go off. A capped cylinder dang sure can.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Half a shotgun won't go off. A capped cylinder dang sure can.

 

I'm thinkin' when the cylinder hit the ground.. they are dead rounds... same as a shotgun or rifle round..

They are also a live round.. but a dead round..

I'm still 4 misses.. lot's of time wasted..

 

Rance

[Manassas Jack]

Match DQ...A loaded and capped cylinder is the same as a loaded gun with six barrels.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Well, if for safety reasons you can't retrieve dropped rounds, then you should not be able to retrieve a dropped cylinder. Yes, it's more dangerous than a dropped round. 4 misses for shots not fired, and move on. Ground or hand off the revolver (what's left of it). Warn the shooter not to drop a capped cylinder again. Like Phanton said, probably a once in a lifetime occurrence.

 

Perhaps allowing the intentional detachment of parts of a firearm while at the firing line should be prohibited for safety reasons. But, it's not a rule at this time.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Anvil Al #59168]

Match DQ...A loaded and capped cylinder is the same as a loaded gun with six barrels.

 

 

+1

 

Someone asked me that not long after it happened. That was what I said. MDQ

[Al OVERA, SASS#26238 Life]

Well, if for safety reasons you can't retrieve dropped rounds, then you should not be able to retrieve a dropped cylinder. Yes, it's more dangerous than a dropped round. 4 misses for shots not fired, and move on. Ground or hand off the revolver (what's left of it). Warn the shooter not to drop a capped cylinder again. Like Phanton said, probably a once in a lifetime occurrence.

 

Perhaps allowing the intentional detachment of parts of a firearm while at the firing line should be prohibited for safety reasons. But, it's not a rule at this time.

 

Good luck, GJ

C&Bs, especially the Colt style, are wierd ducks at best. We recently had a C&B shooter shoot the barrel down range. Seems the wedge had come out somehow and the next shot took the barrel assy off. He did ground the remains and went on. But, another not too often occurence. MY CALL for this post. 4 misses. move on.

Al

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

I suppose that begs an interesting question since the rules don't treat it: If a shooter PLACES a round on the table and it then ROLLS off the table onto the ground, is it a dropped round?

 

For one, I don't think it is. And of course, we'll argue the safety merits until the internet becomes an implant.

 

However, FOR NOW... there is no rule. Therefore, (for me) benefit goes to the shooter.

Match DQ...A loaded and capped cylinder is the same as a loaded gun with six barrels.

And the call....unless Mannassas Jack can point out the rule IN THE RULEBOOK that says that a cylinder is the same as a gun. (It's not the same or they wouldn't give them different names. They may be just as dangerous, but it would require a specific rule to make them the same.)

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Consider this:

 

Rounds in the Cylinder have a mini barrel...not quite the same as a "Bare" round...

 

[Rancho Roy]

Match DQ...A loaded and capped cylinder is the same as a loaded gun with six barrels.

 

agreed!

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

I guess the question is, what makes a firearm? Its not the barrel, the frame is what holds it together, and has the mechanism to make it fire. And the frame is generally what ATF retricts in buying, one needs to buy through a FFL holder. Yet, dropping a C&B capped cylinder would make the cylinder subject to being cappable of firing from just striking the caps, with the surface as it landed. Far-fetched, but its why Colt SA, weren't fully loaded to all 6 cylinders, if dropped could e by dropping.

So it could be called, "Dropping a loaded gun". Since it could fire by striking the caps. (a pistol doesn't need a barrel, as the pepperbox, and James Reid Knuckle Busters proved). The frame holds everything together, including firing mechanism, but dropping would now make the surface the firing mechanism and means.

Forgot to add. A MDQ, in my opinion. MT

[Prof. Fuller Bullspit]

This is a good one Phantom!

 

Two ways to look at it:

 

1. Is it a gun? The rules say a dropped gun is a MDQ. That is the letter of the law. The answer, no, a cylinder is not a gun. Proceed on to decide if the cylinder is the same as dropped rounds.

 

2. Is it a safety problem? This is the spirit of the rule. As you pointed out, (and Old Scout and others have proved through testing) a ball shot out of just a cylinder can be dangerous. (Old Scout got 400+ FPS out of a deeply seated ball. The answer is yes, this is a safety problem. Given that, I would say treat the capped cylinder like the gun and assign a MDQ.

[Doc Shapiro]

This is a good one Phantom!

 

Two ways to look at it:

 

1. Is it a gun? The rules say a dropped gun is a MDQ. That is the letter of the law. The answer, no, a cylinder is not a gun. Proceed on to decide if the cylinder is the same as dropped rounds.

 

2. Is it a safety problem? This is the spirit of the rule. As you pointed out, (and Old Scout and others have proved through testing) a ball shot out of just a cylinder can be dangerous. (Old Scout got 400+ FPS out of a deeply seated ball. The answer is yes, this is a safety problem. Given that, I would say treat the capped cylinder like the gun and assign a MDQ.

 

That's my thought as well.

[Stump Water]

Half a shotgun won't go off. A capped cylinder dang sure can.

 

Let's suppose the shooter gets two shells in the barrel assembly before it unlimbers itself from the rest of the gun and falls to the ground.

 

Now what?

[Manassas Jack]

There is no "Rule" addressing this directly. But just because a cartridge and a C&B pistol serve the same purpose doesn't mean that they can be treated the same. A loaded and capped cylinder is not the same as a cartridge. Otherwise, you would be able to carry a loaded and capped cylinder in a belt pouch same as cartridges in loops.

A "live" C&B cylinder IS a gun and should be treated as such.

 

Lets hear from PWB. I will bow to his remarks.

[McCandless]

(Hmmm, call would have to be the same as if a shooter pulled the base bin of his ca'tridge gun, dropped his cylinder full of live cases on the ground. ((assuming the ca'tridges stayed in the chambers)). What then?

 

<tongue in cheek mode on> Could be, an SDQ for "unsafe gun handling", a bonus for sheer gritty determination to git 'er done, and a new RO for allowing him to stick his fingers out there in front of capped chambers to git the wedge out, and then disassemble the thing. <tongue in cheek mode off>

 

We ain't allowed to shoot cap n' ball carbines with our forward hand in front of the cylinder. So, pretty much the same thing.

I've found that it's easier to detonate a cap than it is a primer. A cap protrudes up from the cylinder, instead of being inset into the back of a case. You have to consider, what would have been the call if a cap had ignited?

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

This is a good one Phantom!

 

Two ways to look at it:

 

1. Is it a gun? The rules say a dropped gun is a MDQ. That is the letter of the law. The answer, no, a cylinder is not a gun. Proceed on to decide if the cylinder is the same as dropped rounds.

 

2. Is it a safety problem? This is the spirit of the rule. As you pointed out, (and Old Scout and others have proved through testing) a ball shot out of just a cylinder can be dangerous. (Old Scout got 400+ FPS out of a deeply seated ball. The answer is yes, this is a safety problem. Given that, I would say treat the capped cylinder like the gun and assign a MDQ.

You can SAY that, but if you can't find me a RULE then you can't make that call. How many times do you hear B**SH** made up 'rules' that aren't in the rule book?

 

Too often for my taste; therefore, when I have the timer, "Show me the rule."

 

For what it's worth, I agree that a capped round in a cylinder is darn dangerous. But, it's not a rule, and Stump Water hit the primer on the head: treat them the same or make another rule to handle the situation.

 

Calling on "spirit of the rule" under the guise of safety to make a call against the shooter instead of "benefit of the doubt" IS NOT in the SASS RO guidelines.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Let's suppose the shooter gets two shells in the barrel assembly before it unlimbers itself from the rest of the gun and falls to the ground.

 

Now what?

That was gonna be my question, what about a shotgun doing the same thing

 

 

Jefro

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

IMHO the shotgun shells are free floating objects and probably would not even still be in the barrel when it hit the ground. If they were, you are still looking at the highly unlikely possibility of the primer landing on a small pointed object to acieve ignition.

 

The caps on a C&B cylinder are locked into a very exposed condition and pose much greater risk.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

You can SAY that, but if you can't find me a RULE then you can't make that call. How many times do you hear B**SH** made up 'rules' that aren't in the rule book?

 

Too often for my taste; therefore, when I have the timer, "Show me the rule."

 

For what it's worth, I agree that a capped round in a cylinder is darn dangerous. But, it's not a rule, and Stump Water hit the primer on the head: treat them the same or make another rule to handle the situation.

 

Calling on "spirit of the rule" under the guise of safety to make a call against the shooter instead of "benefit of the doubt" IS NOT in the SASS RO guidelines.

 

Bro King, your post was my thinkin and reasoning also.

 

Phantom will wake up our brain cells on this one for good discussions.

 

 

..........Widder

[Grizzly Dave]

I would say MDQ and take it to the match director.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

First you fire the timer operator. He is letting someone work on a loaded gun on the firing line. The gun should have been grounded..

The cylinder with 4 capped chambers has the potential of going off. In tthe gun or falling to the ground. And unlike a cartridge the caps are sticking out beyond the surface of the cylinder. They have a greater risk of discharging because of a rock or hard surface than a cartridge hitting the ground. There is also the weight of the cylinder adding to the potential..

 

I shoot cap and ball. This should have been a MDQ. We aren't allowed to bring loaded and capped cylinders to the line for reloads for this very reason. A dropped cylinder is a safety risk.

 

And whether it's in the rules or not, common sense and safety would demand that working on a loaded gun on the line should never be allowed.

 

Ike

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

First you fire the timer operator. He is letting someone work on a loaded gun on the firing line. The gun should have been grounded..Shooters work on loaded guns on the line all the time. Clearing a high primer or a stovepiped 1911 is normal. So is clearing a '97.

The cylinder with 4 capped chambers has the potential of going off. In tthe gun or falling to the ground. And unlike a cartridge the caps are sticking out beyond the surface of the cylinder. They have a greater risk of discharging because of a rock or hard surface than a cartridge hitting the ground. There is also the weight of the cylinder adding to the potential..

I shoot cap and ball. This should have been a MDQ. We aren't allowed to bring loaded and capped cylinders to the line for reloads for this very reason. A dropped cylinder is a safety risk.Bring up the NEW rule to the RO Committee for the reasons stated.

 

And whether it's in the rules or not, common sense and safety would demand that working on a loaded gun on the line should never be allowed.So as soon as a high primer jams a SAA the gun should be grounded? How about a 1911? Ever had a S/S jam a firing pin through a primer? The list goes on.... KEEP THE DARN THING DOWNRANGE.

 

Ike

[J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE]

First of all, I claim no authority on this subject, but here is my take.

 

A cap and ball firearm is not classified as a firearm by the federal government, so to say a cylinder is not a gun, is about the same as saying I can drop my cap and ball revolver, cause technically, it is not defined as a gun.

 

I see the very real risk to dropping a loaded cylinder, if it fires it is a negligent discharge, if the bullet hits you, it may not have full energy, but it can still cause real damage.

 

I hate adding rules because we won't use common sense. A cap and ball cylinder, loaded and capped is as dangerous as a gun and if we treat it otherwise, then we will eventually have to add another rule.

[Jacknife]

Sounds like a broken gun to me, no call.

[Old Scatterbrain]

Shooters work on loaded guns on the line all the time. Clearing a high primer or a stovepiped 1911 is normal. So is clearing a '97.

 

Is clearing a misfeed the same as "working on" a gun? If not, then what constitutes "working on"? I know what it means to me, but is there a clear written definition?

 

As far as the original question, I think this illustrates the problem when one forsakes common sense and attempts to blindly follow written rules verbatim, regardless of the results. You end up with judges and/or juries making insane decisions, and you also end up with tens of thousands of rules and regulations trying to address every conceivable circumstance.

 

EDIT I agree that a percussion cylinder is not the same as an actual gun, but it also is not the same as an ejector housing screw, for example. It is not just a random part that fell off.

 

Not that anyone asked my opinion about any of this...

[Anvil Al #59168]

Consider this:

 

Rounds in the Cylinder have a mini barrel...not quite the same as a "Bare" round...

 

 

 

That would be my thoughts.

 

 

And when I said MDQ at the time when asked. (which was after being ruled on, and ruled correctly to me.) It was a guess from something that happend about 7 years ago that I remembered.

 

But this is a good one. That made many not sure.

 

 

And one that might make them add some more wording in the book.

[Presidio]

I too shoot Frontiersman. I'm in full agreement with Manassass Jack of the potential danger of a dropped C&B capped cylinder going off. Just the chance of one chamber discharging an uncontrolled round gives me the willies. Just no telling which direction that ball is going to go.

 

If'n I wasn't MDQ by someone...I'd MDQ meownself....then kick back into doing posse duties for the rest of the shoot.

 

As for needing another rule to cover this type of situation...I believe just plain common sense should be enough rule for anyone. Not handing off or grounding the dispairing gun was a big no-no in my book. Timer should have handled that like they would have say a squib or jammed-up gun.

 

Just 2 cents from someone who's been shooting C&B long before CAS even came about.

[Prof. Fuller Bullspit]

You can SAY that, but if you can't find me a RULE then you can't make that call. How many times do you hear B**SH** made up 'rules' that aren't in the rule book?

 

Too often for my taste; therefore, when I have the timer, "Show me the rule."

 

For what it's worth, I agree that a capped round in a cylinder is darn dangerous. But, it's not a rule, and Stump Water hit the primer on the head: treat them the same or make another rule to handle the situation.

 

Calling on "spirit of the rule" under the guise of safety to make a call against the shooter instead of "benefit of the doubt" IS NOT in the SASS RO guidelines.

 

 

This is a tough one. In one respect you are absolutely correct. For a call to be made, you should be able to point to a clear rule. On the other hand, it is impossible to have rules for every possible event. When such an event occurs you attempt to apply the rules that seem to pertain the best you can. The guide for this is the spirit of the rule.

 

What we have in this hypothetical situation is a case where there is no rule that is specifically written to answer the salient question: Is a loaded and capped cylinder considered a gun in the event it is dropped when outside of the gun.

 

Do we really need to make a rule about that or can we use common sense and accept that a capped loaded cylinder should be construed as "a gun" if dropped?

 

When it comes to a non-safety situation I am all for giving the shooter the benefit of the doubt. When it comes to safety I think that the benefit of the doubt gets reduced a bit.

 

Here is how I see it.

 

1. You can't carry capped cylinders around in your belt. Here is the rule:

 

Shooter's Handbook Page 25 item 29:

 

Percussion revolvers may only be capped at the loading area or on the firing

line.

 

 

This is the only rule I can point to that tells me that the charged and capped cylinder should be treated as a "gun" in the event the loaded cylinder is dropped.

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

RO's/TO's shouldn't allow disassembly of arms on the line! If ya gotta pull the wedge take your 20 seconds and move on. The caps probably shouldn't be removed at the unload table either but at the designated test/malfunction bay

 

I had a shooter clear a cap one time and in the process of getting the cylinder clear and rotated, he lost control of the hammer/trigger and kinda AD'ed into the window frame! Didn't help his match one bit!!!

 

Now what if the shooter caught the capped cylinder but dropped the rest of the gun, it's on half cock, and it's pointed uprange, hmmmmm....

[Doc Coles SASS 1188]

If the question is safety (which I think is the basis for the dropped gun rule), in my opinion, this would be a major issue. A dropped, capped and loaded cylinder is quite capable of discharging if it lands the right way (which coincidentally would place it "muzzle" up). Caps are much easier to set off than a primer since they don't heed to be struck in a specific place by a firing pin, a strike pretty much anywhere on the end of the cap will do it. We should be thinking about what is safe and unsafe when looking at these things and in my opinion, a dropped, capped and loaded cylinder is quite dangerous.

[Seldom Seen #16162]

The only difference between a cartridge round and C&B round is the cartridge round is preassembled in a brass case. All of the other components are the same; bullet, powder and primer. Once they are placed in the chamber they both serve the same exact purpose.

 

It should also be acknowledged that there is the possibility that were a dropped cartridge round land just right on something hard on the ground it might discharge. However SASS has decided that possibility is so small as to not create a risk of injury and has ruled that a dropped round is a dead one. Since they don't mention about being in cylinder when dropped so I presume there is not greater risk.

 

So now you have the same situation with the only difference being no brass cartridge case.

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

Scary stuff. If the capped cylinder were to hit the ground with enough force to discharge the bullet... it would be pointing up and at a slight angle... maybe 10 to 15 degrees. Most likely to be injured are the Shooter, Timer Operator or Spotters. I would expect the bullet to have enough energy to seriously damage a knee cap, groin, gut, rib cage or even the jaw and head.

 

I don't TO very often, and I have never seen anyone try to disassemble their gun on the clock. I imagine, as TO, I would tell the shooter to hand it off or call a cease fire going forward from here. Until the rules are changed to address this.