Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Shooter starts with rifle (Marlin) at port arms to begin course. Shooter fires the first round, second round becomes problematic and gets ejected only doesn't clear ejection port. Shooter removes round, places in mouth (lead first), then continues course with a reload (ejected rd) from his mouth at the end of the string. Second scenario: Rifle reload during course of fire. Shooter shoots first 10 rds, lays rifle safely back on prop, and reloads (may or may not have been touching rifle continuously after initial return to prop). Picks up rifle and continues course of fire. What choo say folks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Shooter starts with rifle (Marlin) at port arms to begin course. Shooter fires the first round, second round becomes problematic and gets ejected only doesn't clear ejection port. Shooter removes round, places in mouth (lead first), then continues course with a reload (ejected rd) from his mouth at the end of the string. I would have to say, technically and by the book, he gets a safety for not placing the problematic round in/on a safe place. The mouth isn't, on a table is. JMO. Edit: Where was the TO??? I would've instructed the shooter to remove the live cartridge from his mouth. If he did promptly, then I would make it a no call. Second scenario: Rifle reload during course of fire. Shooter shoots first 10 rds, lays rifle safely back on prop, and reloads (may or may not have been touching rifle continuously after initial return to prop). Picks up rifle and continues course of fire. No call. You have to allow the shooter the opportunity to safely reload his gun. In this case, he doesn't have to be continually touching the firearm. What choo say folks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 No call on both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willy Whiskers Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 1) I see no difference between jacking a round and it landing on the table, where it is dead and cannot be reloaded and the round in the mouth. They are both out of play and a safety (atleast) should be called. 2) Making sure the rifle is safe duting the reload is just good sense. There is no reason he cannot place the gun to reload. He is still in the action of engageing the rifle part of the stage. No call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Shooter starts with rifle (Marlin) at port arms to begin course. Shooter fires the first round, second round becomes problematic and gets ejected only doesn't clear ejection port. Shooter removes round, places in mouth (lead first), then continues course with a reload (ejected rd) from his mouth at the end of the string. NO CALL. Round was not completely "ejected" (i.e. clear of the firearm)...it is NOT a "dead round" at that point. The rule against CARRYING a round for a STAGE RELOAD in the mouth doesn't apply in this situation. The round was initially CARRIED to the stage in an approved manner (i.e. IN the magazine of the rifle) Second scenario: Rifle reload during course of fire. Shooter shoots first 10 rds, lays rifle safely back on prop, and reloads (may or may not have been touching rifle continuously after initial return to prop). Picks up rifle and continues course of fire. NO CALL...as long as the shooter maintains contact with the rifle once a round has been chambered (i.e. unfired round under a cocked hammer) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Shooters Handbook- Page 11 about fourth bullet "Ammunition required for reloads during the course of any stage must be carried on the shooters person in a bandoleer, cartridge/shotgun belt loop, pouch, holster or pocket or safely staged as required by stage instructions. Rifle and revolver ammunition may not be carried in a shotgun loop. No ammunition may be carried in the mouth, ears, nose, cleavage, or any other body orifice." Seems to me, this covers it. The article doesn't say anything about starting the stage with, or ending the stage with, but just says what you can and can not do as far as carrying a reload. It doesn't say what the penalty is either. Just says you can not carry a reload (which the cartridge in the OP mouth eventually was). x-plan this to all of us,,,, please.. Blastmaster Edit: it was not a staged reload per requiremnt from stage description.. It was a fubar that the shooter was working through.,, if that makes any difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Shooters Handbook- Page 11 about fourth bullet "Ammunition required for reloads during the course of any stage must be carried on the shooters person in a bandoleer, cartridge/shotgun belt loop, pouch, holster or pocket or safely staged as required by stage instructions. Rifle and revolver ammunition may not be carried in a shotgun loop. No ammunition may be carried in the mouth, ears, nose, cleavage, or any other body orifice." Seems to me, this covers it. The article doesn't say anything about starting the stage with, or ending the stage with, but just says what you can and can not do as far as carrying a reload. It doesn't say what the penalty is either. Just says you can not carry a reload (which the cartridge in the OP mouth eventually was). x-plan this to all of us,,,, please.. Blastmaster Edit: it was not a staged reload per requiremnt from stage description.. It was a fubar that the shooter was working through.,, if that makes any difference. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 He didn't carry the round to the firing point in his mouth, he was just parking it there temporarily. Apples and oranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Dun thit several times myself....no call, was not carried there originally,,,,,,same as grabbing the reload for a rifle on the way to the rifle from an approved carrier and reloading at the appropriate time.... CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 He didn't carry the round to the firing point in his mouth, he was just parking it there temporarily. Apples and oranges. #1 I'm thinkin' he staged the extra (ejected) round.. happended to be in his mouth.. but staged.. didn't leave his control.. no call.. #2 No call.. Rance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 The rules don't say anything about carried to the fireline, or carried away from firing line or, it just says ya cann't carry in mouth for his discussion. In my book he carried the bullet in his mouth during shoots 3-10 or any round after he placed it in his mouth. Now if PWB says all of this was clarified way back when, and it is OK to do so, then,,,,, so be it. BTW, not the same as pulling a reload from belt, having it in your hand and using it at a later time to reload. Carrying reload in hand is ok, not in orifice. Blastmaster,,, (who has been wrong before,, but haven't run across this one either.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 You can't carry the reload to the line in your hand either. What the OP said is that he took it, placed it and reloaded it. That's legal as long as it GOT THERE in an approved carrier (pouch, loop, bandoleer, pocket, ?). If he had carried it in a HAT BAND and originally loaded it from there then it wouldn't have mattered if he later put it in his mouth. It's a SDQ then (illegal to load from hat band). No call on both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 definintion of "Carried" Transmitted,transported, conveyed, transferred, brought, lugged, carted, moved, conducted, passed, relayed, OP sure did "conveyed", "transferred", "passed" and "relayed" the live round from the rifle to his mouth. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 definintion of "Carried" Transmitted,transported, conveyed, transferred, brought, lugged, carted, moved, conducted, passed, relayed, OP sure did "conveyed", "transferred", "passed" and "relayed" the live round from the rifle to his mouth. Just saying. The round was initially CARRIED to the stage in an approved manner (i.e. IN the magazine of the rifle) Just saying (again). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 The round was initially CARRIED to the stage in an approved manner (i.e. IN the magazine of the rifle) Just saying (again). I agree with that too. If you and the Rules Committe says that is the only time carry is used or should be considered, then so be it. I "guess" you are telling me that is how the cow is going to eat it.. fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 I agree with that too. If you and the Rules Committe says that is the only time carry is used or should be considered, then so be it. I "guess" you are telling me that is how the cow is going to eat it.. fine. That is how it is considered in regard to the situation cited in the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Mushman Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 That is how it is considered in regard to the situation cited in the OP. Thanks for the clarification on this PWB. As you would guess, this was recent, real happenstance. In fact, it was the day after I took the RO I course - object lessons, obviously - there were two (or maybe three) of us on that particular posse who took the course the day before. Glad to see that the calls were consistent with what I believe I was taught (and even apparently retained!) in the course. They still presented a challenge - lookin forward to RO II at the convention then on to the firing line! Cheers, Harvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share Posted November 9, 2011 The real issue with scenario #1 is not the reload on the stage. The stage did not call for a reload, it just became a necessity when the round got cattywhompus in the receiver. The main question was, When is the round considered dead if ejected from the magazine? PWB clarified that nicely for me as the TO. It really isn't any different than a '97 with a cocked round that needed straightened back into the receiver. The call given was in fact a No Call so we did good for the shooter. Scenario #2 became convoluted by the belief a rifle cannot leave the shooter's hands with the action closed on a empty chamber or fired round. The ROI handbook clearly speaks to this scenario in Appendix A (#11)-Range Safety Rules. "Rifle Safe to leave the shooters hands. • Empty, action open • Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed (restaged for further use)" The rifle was restaged for the reload then picked up to complete the stage. At no time was the rifle chambered with a live round while it was out of the shooter's hands. At no time was the rifle ever out of the shooter's immediate control during the reload and continuance of the stage. The same rule DOES NOT apply to the shotgun though and I believe that is where the confusion was made. A shotgun can only leave the shooter's hands open and empty. The call given was a No Call so again we did good for the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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