Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 With SASS announcing that there will not be a Convention in 2012, is it time to rethink the TG summit process and rules discussions? With internet technology, it should be possible to perform many if not most of the TG summit process on line. For those TGs not able to support an on line process, they could go to a location in their state, a lot closer than Vegas to sit in on an on line TG summit process. In the past it has been pretty hard for some clubs to get TGs due to the costs associated with going to the Convention. Looks like an on line alternative could increase TG participation over the Convention meeting process. Certainly on line meeting software could be used. Any good ideas on how to execute this without undue costs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assassin Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 With SASS announcing that there will not be a Convention in 2012, is it time to rethink the TG summit process and rules discussions? With internet technology, it should be possible to perform many if not most of the TG summit process on line. For those TGs not able to support an on line process, they could go to a location in their state, a lot closer than Vegas to sit in on an on line TG summit process. In the past it has been pretty hard for some clubs to get TGs due to the costs associated with going to the Convention. Looks like an on line alternative could increase TG participation over the Convention meeting process. Certainly on line meeting software could be used. Any good ideas on how to execute this without undue costs? Meet at WR or EOT. LL' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted November 3, 2011 Author Share Posted November 3, 2011 Meet at WR or EOT. LL' That still requires a ton of travel. A small percentage of TGs have attended WR and EOT in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack, SASS #20451 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 While it is a requirement that you have internet access to be a TG a VERY small number actually frequent the wire. I think an online TG meeting is a bad idea at this time. I will reserve my opinions of the entire TG process for another time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Let's see... Let them use the TG forum to discuss ideas and possible revisions. Open up a line of communication from the membership at large to the TG community (not just thru our "own" TG's) Monitor the ideas/ revisions that incite the most enthusiasm. Allow the TG's to create "Official" agendas consisting of the items. Present these ideas to the membership community and then vote on them online by the TG's or (my preference) by the membership as a whole. Could all be done with zero additional cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 While it is a requirement that you have internet access to be a TG a VERY small number actually frequent the wire. I think an online TG meeting is a bad idea at this time. I will reserve my opinions of the entire TG process for another time. Then maybe they need to get on board. The Internet makes the most sense to me. It requires very little effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Set up monthly Conference calls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 As stated there are free Internet meeting sites as well as free Internet vidieo meeting software. Voting can be conducted through survey monkey. I use it for our club to vote on the summit agenda. I would sugjest the TG business be conducted over the Internet via Sass wire. We already have the TG room. As far as a TG not having Internet, well there Internet cafe's all over the place. These days you don't even need a PC, just a smart phone or device like an IPad, which is what I use for web surfing these days. The big expensive Dell XPS gets used for important tasks like gaming, movie editing and as a storage device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wily Yankee Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 As stated there are free Internet meeting sites as well as free Internet vidieo meeting software. Voting can be conducted through survey monkey. I use it for our club to vote on the summit agenda. I would sugjest the TG business be conducted over the Internet via Sass wire. We already have the TG room. As far as a TG not having Internet, well there Internet cafe's all over the place. These days you don't even need a PC, just a smart phone or device like an IPad, which is what I use for web surfing these days. The big expensive Dell XPS gets used for important tasks like gaming, movie editing and as a storage device. Marshal is absolutely right on. It's easier than ever to access the internet. The TG wire already has the discussions and more going year round. If a club owns a computer for scoring, web site ect.. then there's another use for it. Another idea would be to do them at State Championships, the only issue I can see with that would be the time of year the match is held. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 I believe the convention is a worthwhile venture. I have made all of them. But, it is wise to step back and re-evaluate the event. The economy, time of year, location and freshness of the event all need to be looked at. With some changes I am sure it can once again be a popular and fun thing for most of us. Arguments on where and when will be the two most difficult items to resolve. At this point they have a full year to make those decisions. Pleasing everyone will not happen so the next best thing is to please as many as possible. We all have our own ideas of what would work best for us, as an individual, but not necessarily for the masses. I have confidence in the Wild Bunch and believe there will be another convention in our future. Roo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 I don't believe WR or EOT is a viable solution, they have been poorly attended by the TG's in the past for various reasons. The internet makes the most sense and we all ready have the TG Wire to do it on. It's a whole lot cheaper and easier to get to a computer than to get to Las Vegas or other cities. I've attended every TG meeting at the SASS Convention since becoming a TG, but a lot of that is because of the SASS Convention, it's a good excuse to get out of MN in the winter and my wife gets a chance to shop, plus the seminars. It will be sorely missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Annie SASS #37063 Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 How did they meet before there was a SASS Convention? We've had TG's longer than 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 How did they meet before there was a SASS Convention? We've had TG's longer than 10 years. The first Territorial Governors' Summit was held in Las Vegas in 1999. Up until then, the only "official" gathering was at End of Trail, where the TG's were considered as "advisors" to the Wild Bunch regarding any rule and/or equipment issues. IIRC, two of the requirements to be a TG were SASS Life membership and attendance at EoT. (at least that's what "they" told me when I accepted the position for the OOWSS). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Pleasing everyone will not happen so the next best thing is to please as many as possible. We all have our own ideas of what would work best for us, as an individual, but not necessarily for the masses. I have confidence in the Wild Bunch and believe there will be another convention in our future. Roo I have my own idea, bring to the east coast for a change. The SE Regional is next weekend in Summerville SC, only about 20 miles from Charleston SC. The Charleston-Summerville area is a great spot for tourism and conventions, and the SE Regional ia great match. Wishfull thinkin Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 With SASS announcing that there will not be a Convention in 2012, is it time to rethink the TG summit process and rules discussions? With internet technology, it should be possible to perform many if not most of the TG summit process on line.[ For those TGs not able to support an on line process, they could go to a location in their state, a lot closer than Vegas to sit in on an on line TG summit process. In the past it has been pretty hard for some clubs to get TGs due to the costs associated with going to the Convention. Looks like an on line alternative could increase TG participation over the Convention meeting process. Certainly on line meeting software could be used. Any good ideas on how to execute this without undue costs? I need to quote a little Dubious history to make my point; Once upon a time, in a land far, far away I had this boss; when we got them brand-spanking new 286 computers with a whole megabyte of RAM he said we all better learn to use them because in ten years, everything would be on computer. Dubious of course, resisted and was summarily punished with graveyard desk work until he admitted the error of his ways. A few years later I had reason to thank this boss because I found myself in an administrative position that required me to learn MORE about computers because I was responsible for record keeping for a couple thousand employees among other things. To have done that job even at that time, by hand, on paper would have been silly. I eventually put all sorts of things on lesson plans, learned powerpoint and such, something that "back in the day" was inovative and progressive. Now it is the norm. Everything is done on computers. I for one could no do my job or do many of the things I do at home without computer. Heck, I even got one of the dang thing on my belt! (It's a phone, too) In this day and age if someone can't use a computer to do Email at the very least.....shouldn't VOLUNTEER to be a TG. Simple as that. No earthly reason why there needs to be a "convention", held one time of the year in an inconvienent place to "decide the issues". Things that TG's do, discuss and decide the issues can be dome easily, simply and expediciously by using email, video-conferencing, etcetera. Why should mainstream SASS wait a year for something important to be decided? The convention is failing? Wouldn't know about that, never been to one. Not in my budget and I'm not that far away from Las Vegas. Sounds like a lot of fun, but I'd rather shoot. Perhaps the ecomony is part of the problem. Perhaps those that have been for the most part maybe, see no need to go to another one since they've been to one. Maybe it's too far away. Maybe the stuff they do isn't interesting enough. Maybe there's more to the story. True fact about "progress", it's gonna happen weather you want it to or not. If you don't adapt, you get left behind..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wily Yankee Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 I need to quote a little Dubious history to make my point; Once upon a time, in a land far, far away I had this boss; when we got them brand-spanking new 286 computers with a whole megabyte of RAM he said we all better learn to use them because in ten years, everything would be on computer. Dubious of course, resisted and was summarily punished with graveyard desk work until he admitted the error of his ways. A few years later I had reason to thank this boss because I found myself in an administrative position that required me to learn MORE about computers because I was responsible for record keeping for a couple thousand employees among other things. To have done that job even at that time, by hand, on paper would have been silly. I eventually put all sorts of things on lesson plans, learned powerpoint and such, something that "back in the day" was inovative and progressive. Now it is the norm. Everything is done on computers. I for one could no do my job or do many of the things I do at home without computer. Heck, I even got one of the dang thing on my belt! (It's a phone, too) In this day and age if someone can't use a computer to do Email at the very least.....shouldn't VOLUNTEER to be a TG. Simple as that. No earthly reason why there needs to be a "convention", held one time of the year in an inconvienent place to "decide the issues". Things that TG's do, discuss and decide the issues can be dome easily, simply and expediciously by using email, video-conferencing, etcetera. Why should mainstream SASS wait a year for something important to be decided? The convention is failing? Wouldn't know about that, never been to one. Not in my budget and I'm not that far away from Las Vegas. Sounds like a lot of fun, but I'd rather shoot. Perhaps the ecomony is part of the problem. Perhaps those that have been for the most part maybe, see no need to go to another one since they've been to one. Maybe it's too far away. Maybe the stuff they do isn't interesting enough. Maybe there's more to the story. True fact about "progress", it's gonna happen weather you want it to or not. If you don't adapt, you get left behind..... Boy you're a smart guy, no wonder you made Chief Metermaid... I guess I'm not the only one that can't make to Vegas... Wily Hey give a hug to the boss form Lola and me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 Boy you're a smart guy, no wonder you made Chief Metermaid... I guess I'm not the only one that can't make to Vegas... Wily Hey give a hug to the boss form Lola and me... And Bottle-Washer and Dog-Poop-Picker-Upper...... You're sure up early Wily..... Say hey back to Lola! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOUTH-PACIFIC,SASS #59402 Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 i'm not the smartest duck when it comes to this puter crap but it is a good way to keep up on things.when you accept the t.g. job you obligate yourself to the system and the shooters. you repersent the shooters in your club when you vote that is a majority club wish. use the t.g. wire. that way you don't all the b.s. that is generated on the wire and in the saloon.that way we can hopefully stick to the subj. and not be going off on crazy crap . ifeel that more tg's should get involved in the system and not just sit back with the good olb boys and agree with then all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice B. Dunn, SASS #3516 Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 I, for one, am glad to learn that the Convention is going away. There are things I like about it...Las Vegas is not one them. I believe the greater majority of TG's are interested in improvement of our sport....but some of the changes that have been proposed are silly and take up valuable time and for some at great expense. I do think the internet is the most efficent way to negotiate any "needed" changes to the sport. You can see how efficent our "Congress" is now...so perhaps there is a better way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof. Fuller Bullspit Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 The Internet makes it possible for the TG's to meet online. But is it wise? There is something to be said for slowing down the pace of communication and change in a game like ours. Keep the TG meeting annual and face-to-face! Even if it isn't the convention, there are other venues. If the Internet is to be used, don't use a discussion forum. There are desktop video conferencing systems, use these to bring TG's who can't make it to the meeting into the environment. Just like congress, making new rules should be hard and less frequent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Annie SASS #37063 Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 I think the problem with doing the TG Summit on a chat board is that many times folks tend to click "send" before their minds kick into gear. Haven't you ever noticed any of this on the wire or perhaps on Facebook? I think they need to meet face to face but it should be in the center of the country. Problem is it is a HUGE financial burden to make the TG's travel that far. Would be OK if you lived in the Midwest but not so OK if you lived in Nevada and weren't having to travel far in the past. All in your point of view. Of course you have to be a Life Member to be a TG and that is also a HUGE financial burden but that is another issue. There are lots of questions here but ultimately the Wild Bunch will make the changes needed. It is their job. Just my view from this side of the fence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 All one has to do is look at how many threads on the Wire and the Saloon(ACS) spin out of control to see that, even with the best intentions, trying to hold the TG Summit meeting on the internet could end up as a disaster. Body language, intonation of voice, or the crinkle of a smile, make the difference between a friendly poke in the ribs and a personal attack. Very little of that comes through during digitized communication, hence the invention of Emoticons ! There is no doubt that much of the upfront work could be done via computer, but there is no substitue for direct, face to face, communucation. While I love the shooting aspect of this game, in my opinion at least, SASS benifits from having an event like the Convention. Sometimes it's just nice to have an opportunity to hang out with people of like minds without the wind, rain, dust, mud, sleet, snow, or blazing heat, (My wife and I have shot in all of them, this year!) and the Convention provides that opportunity. At each of the Conventions my wife and I have attended, not as a TG but as a conventioneers, we found something new and interesting in the seminars, enjoyed time with friends, both new and old, and in a place like Las Vegas, there are plenty of other things to do if you need a break. Personally, other than for the occasional meal offsite, we never left the host hotel. We also got to sit down and talk to some really nice folks from overseas that flew in for the Convention. That just doesn't happen at a big shooting event, the people might be there, but the focus of activity is on the shooting competition, much more than on the socializing. Could changing the timing of the event make a difference? Possibly, but if you start to look at the schedule of major shooting events, i.e. Regionals, Winter Range, EOT, and the international equivalents, the December - February time period is probably the least impacted. Moving the Convention to after the Holiday Season, possibly the end of January or early February might help attendence, but that too is anyones guess. I know if they move it to coincide with EOT I won't be back simply because that is the same week that the Maryland State Championship, Thunder Valley Days, is held at my home club. Could changing the location of the event make a difference? Possibly, but no matter where you put it, there will be people who will think it is too far to go, or that the cost of the travel is too high. Las Vegas is one of those hub cities that offers lots of flights, lots of hotels, and lots of entertainment opportunities, and that will have to be matched elsewhere. I know that Branson, MO has been mentioned, but when I checked into it last, the cost of my airfare from the Washington, DC area was 50% more than my flights to Las Vegas. In addition the overall length of travel was almost twice as long as there were no direct flights, and there was driving on the Branson side. Orlando, FL might be an alternative, but that will put the majority of the travel on the pards from west side of the Rockies. And, assuming that the date for the Convention stays during the winter months, you have a much better chance of getting attendance if the destination is warm and sunny instead of cold and snowy. Somehow, Branson, MO, in December-February time frame, doesn't seem to fit that bill. Does the TG Summit need to be held at the Convention? No, but if there is going to be a Convention, then it certainly makes sense to hold it there. The TGs I know who attend the Convention work pretty hard while there. Trying to conduct the business of SASS, while attending a major match, would probably result in less than optimum performance in one or the other or both. Is there enough interest in having a Convention? While there is a significant portion of the SASS membership that is only interested in the shooting aspect of the sport, there are enough people interested in the social aspects that, at least in my opinion, there is room for the Convention and I believe that SASS benefits from providing that altenate way to enjoy our sport. The Convention also provides an additional venue to expose our sport to people who would otherwise never know about SASS. SASS has a big job ahead of them as they work to determine the path ahead. SASS has consistently asked for comments and suggestions on how to improve the Convention, and they have acted on many of them. I know that I personally received an email from Coyote Calhoun (RIP), who is and will continue to be greatly missed, thanking me for my comments and suggestions and he didn't know me from the side of a barn. I hope that SASS can find the right combination of location and time of year so that the Convention, after a short respite, will be back and better than ever. Dogmeat Dad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I wish they would change the time of year it's held. I can never go, it's my busy time for work and family. Just my 2 cents, Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go West Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I see no reason to travel to have a TG meeting. The Internet makes it possible to conduct all their business without undue expense. Sometimes not being FTF brings out rudeness, but I would expect reasonable behavior of our club leaders. Something to be said about making changes more difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 A TG was appointed by his/her club to represent the club, not themselves. As long as that consideration is followed, shouldn't have any problems, being all grown-ups, to set up something on the wire. Actually, it might be a better venue for ideas, and revisions. Since it would be fresh and could be discussed during the year with the club, instead of last minute. It would also clarify, for all to see, how the vote was coming. I'm for it. MT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 No matter where you hold a "national/world" TG Summit, the largest majority of TG's will be unable to attend. I think mini-meetings at the regional matches are the logical place to attempt to gather as many TG's as possible together and discuss the various items. Even then many will not attend because the unfortunate reality is there are a bunch of TG's (and match directors too) that never go anywhere except their home club. It would be a good thing to have a SASS representative present at all regionals so they could in turn pass along thought processes from one region to another. After that has been done, then finish it up on the internet. There are problems with anything you do. After all, we're not a big company with executives we pay to attend the stockholder's meeting. Until we are (and we'll of course never be), the best method to involve as many as possible is using the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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