Sources For Main Match Rifle Shooting 45 Cowboy Special

[Bart Solo]

I am pretty sold on 45 Cowboy Special in my revolvers. I understand a 73 can be set up to run them as well. What about other main match rifles? Who does the work? Is it reversable if I ever want to sell the rifle? Does anybody sell rifles already set up for the cowboy game using 45 Cowboy Special?

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

Hopefully AJ will jump in with the corrections but I have been researching similar ideas to yours. I have put the horse way ahead of the cart here since I have already purchased two of the short carriers for rifles I do not even own yet. I have seen several posts claiming that the short carrier actually makes a slicked rifle feel slicker, I think there might be a weight reduction thing going on? These come in two rifle model versions, one fits the '66 and '73, while the other fits the '60 Henry. I am sure that anyone who does regular gunsmithing on the toggle links can incorporate the short carrier into the job. The SMITH SHOP is no longer doing the work but they told me it could be swapped in and out as desired. I know of no one doing this yet but I would bet that any of several would add it into one of their purchase options if you asked ahead. In time I hope to purchase a 20" '73 in .45 and an 18" Henry in .45 to go with my carriers and from what I hear the carriers are getting much harder to obtain than the guns so you might want to check for a waiting list?

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

There are ways to make the Marlins shoot C45S, however the one smith I knew of who offered this service is retired, and the rest are amateurs not doing em commercially. Mostly this is not reversible work and frankly is touchy to get right and keep right.

 

The '66, '73, or '60 Henry are easily converted using the Cowboy Carrier by anyone capable of taking the gun apart for cleaning and doing one small bit of file work. Photo-illustrated instructions are available online. It's like a 1/2 hour job the first time through. The work is fully reversible, the small file work in no way inhibits reversal of function if the owner desires to revert to long colt. After several years with my short stroked Marlins, I'm running a '73 myself. 'Nuff said. The already "race-tuned" '73 converted to C45S is slicker than frog snot on a wet glass door knob.

[Korupt Karl]

There are ways to make the Marlins shoot C45S, however the one smith I knew of who offered this service is retired, and the rest are amateurs not doing em commercially. Mostly this is not reversible work and frankly is touchy to get right and keep right.

 

The '66, '73, or '60 Henry are easily converted using the Cowboy Carrier by anyone capable of taking the gun apart for cleaning and doing one small bit of file work. Photo-illustrated instructions are available online. It's like a 1/2 hour job the first time through. The work is fully reversible, the small file work in no way inhibits reversal of function if the owner desires to revert to long colt. After several years with my short stroked Marlins, I'm running a '73 myself. 'Nuff said. The already "race-tuned" '73 converted to C45S is slicker than frog snot on a wet glass door knob.

 

 

I am assuming you mean Widdermaker Hill when you say "retired".....let the record show AJ that Widder is the best Kitchen Table Top Butcher when it comes to tuning a Marlin....and he cuts prime meat when he does. I know that Marauder does a good job showing the way to perform this and I really do wish a gunsmith would take Widder's improvement and start doing these for others. I can tell you that they really work and there are some top shooters using the Widdermatic.

 

As far as the Cowboy Special...what a great round for pistol and for rifle.

 

KK

[Ranger Sgt. Jake McCandless #3368]

It doesn't take long to swap out carriers. I have both a 66 & 73 I usually shoot the 66 so that is where the carrier normally resides and the colt carrier in the 73. When I feel like shooting the 73 with Cowboy 45 Special it's as simple as taking down the 66 remove the carrier and put it in the 73 and now you can shoot C45S out of that rifle. Both rifles have the slight radius filed on the left hand side of the bolt. Anyone who can take apart a toggle link rifle to clean it can fit the carrier,the 73 was done first in a pards basement with AJ watching,the 66 was done by myself took approx a half an hour. Used some 200,400 and 600 grit Emory cloth to clean/fit the carrier to rifle mortice and a fine file to radius bolt head,not difficult at all.It's just as simple as swapping of the carriers to go from colt to C45S or back. Adios Sgt. Jake

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

I've been building competition Toggle Link Rifles for quite a few years. I first started modifying carriers to shoot a short .45 Schofield case but the Cowboy 45 Special is even shorter and would not cycle. I switched to Adirondack Jack's carrier, first in my own .45 Rifles and then started installing 'em for my customers. The modified Carrier Block from AJ isn't always available but it is a GREAT mod for a Toggle Link rifle. It doesn't matter if it's a Box Stock gun, Action Job only or full Short Stroke, the carrier works very well. If you can tear down for full cleaning, the swap is only about a 1/2 hour job. You will be shooting short bullets (160/180) or deep seating longer bullets. Also, AJ also offers a nifty 130Gr bullets for the handguns. The 130Gr bullet doesn't always cycle well in a rifle because of the bullet shape.

Regardless, the C45S case is a great way to go.

 

Coffinmaker

[Bart Solo]

Filing .020 off the left side of the boltface (necessary for the bolt to clear the catch) doesn't render the alteration irreversable?

[Ranger Sgt. Jake McCandless #3368]

Filing .020 off the left side of the boltface (necessary for the bolt to clear the catch) doesn't render the alteration irreversable?

It is just a slight bevel of the left side of rear edge of bolt and makes no difference with the use of 45 colt. While not reversible it will not matter with the use of either cartridge,if I had a camera to take a picture of my modified bolt so you could see just what was involved,alas I do not.The old saying of sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words,is true. Edit I found a picture,on Happy Trails web site http://www.thesmithshop.com/cbs45.html And the one I did on my 66 isn't even as deep as the one Hap has pictured. Adios Sgt. Jake

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

As posted, removing the .020 from the left side of the bolt doesn't affect function at all, for any .45 cartridge. It just serves to move the spring loaded cartridge stop out of the way. With full length .45 Colt cases or .45 Schofield cases you won't even know there is a little flat filed there. Swap the stock or light weight .45 Colt carrier back in with no problems at all.

 

Coffinmaker

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

You know, all of this talk has led me to a different Question. Since carrier weight has always seemed to be a part of the equation with light action jobs and the short stroke actions, how would this work with the short carriers added in? Is there actually any extra ounces that one of the '73 specialists might find to trim down or drill away?

[Ranger Sgt. Jake McCandless #3368]

You know, all of this talk has led me to a different Question. Since carrier weight has always seemed to be a part of the equation with light action jobs and the short stroke actions, how would this work with the short carriers added in? Is there actually any extra ounces that one of the '73 specialists might find to trim down or drill away?

Bob This is just my opinion that their isn't much left that could be lightened as Hap has already taken off quite a bit,YMMV. Adios Sgt. Jake

[Bart Solo]

As posted, removing the .020 from the left side of the bolt doesn't affect function at all, for any .45 cartridge. It just serves to move the spring loaded cartridge stop out of the way. With full length .45 Colt cases or .45 Schofield cases you won't even know there is a little flat filed there. Swap the stock or light weight .45 Colt carrier back in with no problems at all.

 

Coffinmaker

 

Then the filing is not 90 degrees to the face but instead at an angle?

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Bart, yes you are filing a flat that is parallel to the length of the bolt, on the side of the forward lug, then slightly chamfer the front edge of that flat, but that part of the bolt material ONLY contacts the rim of the case anyway, and is in no way needed to have the full strength of the gun, nor dos it interfere with refitting a stock carrier later on. IMHO it is A), a slight INTERNAL mod nobody will ever know is there (But you will of course disclose it should you ever sell the rifle) and , properly understood, does nothing to devalue the rifle.

 

So I'd correct my earlier remarks to say it is a fully FUNCTIONALLY reversible mod with no detraction in strength or value.

 

As to carrier weight, we do remove some mass from the right side, and of course our mod doees remove some heavier brass material on the left side, even though part of that is gained back in the added mechanism. It's a light-ER carrier, but we purposely went with a middle of the road end weight as we believe reliable function is best achieved under all conditions (ie dirty or when BP fouling is present) when the carrier has a little mass to aid slam down...

 

As to reliability of function, ONE of about 180 units has had a pin break, likely a bad pin from the start, replaced easily. How hard are they to keep running? I installed mine and ran it all season with ZERO cleaning of the gun, purposely wanting to see if that effects anything, and it didn't.

[Bart Solo]

I am pretty sure I will want to make the mod once I decide whether to buy a 66 or a 73 and how to have it tuned and what shortstroke kit it should have. I know I don't really need a new rifle, but boy do I want one.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

I am pretty sure I will want to make the mod once I decide whether to buy a 66 or a 73 and how to have it tuned and what shortstroke kit it should have. I know I don't really need a new rifle, but boy do I want one.

 

Funny how that works

[Ranger Sgt. Jake McCandless #3368]

I am pretty sure I will want to make the mod once I decide whether to buy a 66 or a 73 and how to have it tuned and what shortstroke kit it should have. I know I don't really need a new rifle, but boy do I want one.

Either way you will love shooting the Cowboy 45 Special out of it,I know I do. Adios Sgt. Jake

[colbutch]

I bought one about a week ago to run 44 Russians in my 44 special 73, just waiting for the postman to bring it to me.

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

Colbutch, I done the same with a '66 as the planned recipient but something told me to hold off on cutting the bolt and buying up a stock of Russian brass to make the changeover. Since I had one set of guns using .44 and all my other pistols were geared around .45 Special brass, I decided it would be a good time to eliminate one caliber. The great thing is that my, still new, short carrier will work just as well for the new plans as would have for the old.

 

Bart, money plays a big part in my decision and new will probably not be an option for me this time AND I want two rifles out of the deal to boot. I have it in my head to sell the current .44s and hide the money back while I secretly watch for good deals on just the right rifles I want. I do have a couple of weak points in the master plan though, money stashes do not tend to last long around here, I still can not believe she found that last one, and the specific guns I will be shopping for are not that common on the Classifieds. I currently have one '73 each by Cody Conager(sp) and Jimmy Spurs and must say that both guns are as smooth as any I have handled and this leads me to a thought on the toggle link smiths. I really think that the half dozen or so top names we here of on the WIRE regularly are all probably turning out pretty comparable work. I plan to test this theory by going to a different smith and a different style of short stroke on my next gun. Sure wish Hap, The Smith Shop, had stayed in the picture, his SS jobs were always bragged on highly also! Keep in touch with us and we can continue to compare notes.

[shenny]

This is not exactly the answer to your question, but. I have a "Spur" short stroked Marlin .45 that I had an ejection problem, ammo, and he tried the Cowboy Special in it and said that it worked great.

 

shenny

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

This is not exactly the answer to your question, but. I have a "Spur" short stroked Marlin .45 that I had an ejection problem, ammo, and he tried the Cowboy Special in it and said that it worked great.

 

shenny

 

Spur's short stroke rifles were designed for short cartridges. When the C45S came about, I got him to do the first two rifles in C45S. He did a dozen or so. The work was very labor intensive and eventually Spur decided not to do any more. They can run great, and are a whole lot of fun when they do. But if they aren't running great, can be extremely frustrating.

 

The other method with a marlin is the Widdermajic method, not a short stroke, but a revamp of the cartridge feeding geometry. It too works great when "dialed in" but is an advanced kitchen table gun butcher project, and until a competent professional smith steps up to offer this work I would limit my recommendation to those who are advanced in their skills.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

 

The other method with a marlin is the Widdermajic method, not a short stroke, but a revamp of the cartridge feeding geometry. It too works great when "dialed in" but is an advanced kitchen table gun butcher project, and until a competent professional smith steps up to offer this work I would limit my recommendation to those who are advanced in their skills.

 

 

 

Yep, that pretty much says it.

That's why I haven't posted something on this Thread.

 

If a person understands the concept of the Marlin timing and also understands the concept of 'advancing the timing', then its not difficult to set up the Marlin to run the C45S. The BIG difficulty would pop up if the shooter tries to make the Marlin handle the C45S AND the .45 Colt interchangably. That would require establishing a 'Timing Curve', of which AJ is very familiar.

 

IF someone wanted a Marlin to run the C45S, I would suggest having one carrier set up for that cartridge. Then, ifn they wanted to run the .45 Colt, I would recommend having a separate carrier for that cartridge.

 

I have TWO of the WiddermAJiks (duel cartridge designation) that work great using either the C45S and the .45 Colt interchangably but I don't have any intentions right now of setting up any others. Although setting up and establishing a 'Timing Curve' isn't that difficult (ifn ya know what your doing), it is time consuming and basically not worth it. Its a great gun to show off and watch other shooters in disbelief, but in our game, it really isn't necessary.

 

Alittle History:

When I first finished the original Widdermatic (single cartridge designation), I knew that I could also convert one of my .45 Colt Marlins to shooting the C45S without being a short stroked mod.

Sooooo, I did the conversion. Then I called AJ on the phone and told him of my success that it was now possible to have a Marlin to shoot the C45S without having to get it short stroked.

 

AJ made a 'challenging' comment that basically said: 'Boy, it would be nice if you could make it handle the C45S and the .45 Colt interchangably".

 

I basically replied...'hummmm, I hadn't thought about that but give me a couple days and I'll get back with ya because I think I can do it."

 

Well, about 2 days later, it was a reality. After talking with AJ again, it was decided that because it was his cartridge and my innovation to make it work in the Marlin, WE decided to call it the WiddermAJik (duel cartridge designation). The 'AJ' in mAJik is for AJ himself.

 

Anyhow, that was nearly two years ago.

The Widdermatics in operation seem to be doing great and yes, as my good pard Korupt Karl stated, there are a couple World Champs and National Champs who now own one. I don't know ifn they use it regularly but I do know that they seem to be happy with it. And I do know that a couple real nice speed times have also been acquired with them.

 

Now, as for the OP, I think you would be very happy getting a 66 or 73 and getting the right setup from AJ to shoot the C45S. Although I shoot alot of .38 specials during the year, I do use my .45's about 30% of the time and when I do, I exclusively use the C45S cartridge in them. It is a great cartridge!

 

Best regards

 

..........Widder