Reloading 45-70 Government

[Judson T. Oakley]

I am going to start reloading 45-70 Government and would like to know the pros and cons of the various dies available. I have a Dillon 550B and see that Dillon does not make these dies but it looks like RCBS, Hornady, Lee and others make dies for the 45-70. Some of these sets are 2 die sets and some are 3 die sets. Any recommendation on which dies are best and 2 or 3 dies would be appreciated. Also, I heard that the seating die is also the crimp die. Not sure how that works so any help there would also be appreciated.

[Doc Fill 'Em 67797]

All the brands you listed are good. Some just like one brand or other, kinda like Ford vs. Chevy. I like Lee dies because they are good quality, but a little less expensive. I like RCBS too.

 

The three die set will have a seperate case flaring die, this is good because it makes it easy to seat the bullet.

 

With the seating/crimping die you can control how tight of a crimp you want by how you adjust the die. Some like a tight crimp, some like no crimp. For example, if you are loading for a magazine-fed lever action rifle, like a Marlin Cowboy, you will need a good crimp on the bullet so it doesn't get shoved back into the case by the other rounds in the mag.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I am going to start reloading 45-70 Government and would like to know the pros and cons of the various dies available. I have a Dillon 550B and see that Dillon does not make these dies but it looks like RCBS, Hornady, Lee and others make dies for the 45-70. Some of these sets are 2 die sets and some are 3 die sets. Any recommendation on which dies are best and 2 or 3 dies would be appreciated. Also, I heard that the seating die is also the crimp die. Not sure how that works so any help there would also be appreciated.

 

Well, there's no 45-70 dies which are 2 die sets. You need a 3 die set to have a sizer, an expander, and a seater/crimp combined. Separate seater and crimper would take you to a 4 die set. 45-70 is a straight wall case, so it needs a 3 or 4 die set, just like our revolver cartridges!

 

First off, have you got a loading manual? Have you read it yet? Sounds like you are starting from a weak set of knowledge that we can't hope to completely fill in on the Wire.

 

The One choice you will make is whether you use a combined seater/crimper, or a separate pair. Second choice is your press. If you are loading on the 550B (which I would not advise unless you are cranking out TONS of .45-70, and maybe not even then), then your expander die from the set is not used, and a powder-thru expander die (from Dillon, most likely) is used to mount your Dillon powder measure.

 

If you ARE going to try loading on the 550, then you are not going for high precision, you are going for volume. In that case, almost any of the dies will work well. I have a preference toward the Hornady New Dimension dies, and with volume loading, you can use their seater/crimper just fine. So, in your four-station 550, you would install 1=sizer, 2=powder-thru expander, 3=perhaps a powder cop die? 4=seater/crimper. I would shy away from Lee dies in the 550, as you sometimes do not have enough thread length on the Lee dies to set them as you need to on the 550 (speaking from trying to use Lee dies in pistol caliber loading on my two Dillons).

 

If you are loading for precision target shooting, then you probably want to load on a turret or a single-stage press. Then you might really need to ask what dies are best for precise .45-70 shooting. RCBS and Redding are highly respected, as well as Hornady. Since I've not gotten to the "precise" stage of .45-70 shooting, I'll not make a strong recommendation in that area.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Judson T. Oakley]

Well, there's no 45-70 dies which are 2 die sets. You need a 3 die set to have a sizer, an expander, and a seater/crimp combined. Separate seater and crimper would take you to a 4 die set. 45-70 is a straight wall case, so it needs a 3 or 4 die set, just like our revolver cartridges!

 

First off, have you got a loading manual? Have you read it yet? Sounds like you are starting from a weak set of knowledge that we can't hope to completely fill in on the Wire.

 

The choice you will really make is whether you use a combined seater/crimper, or a separate pair. If you are loading on the 550B (which I would not advise unless you are cranking out TONS of .45-70), then your expander die from the set is not used, and a powder-thru expander die (from Dillon, most likely) is used to mount your Dillon powder measure.

 

If you ARE going to load on the 550, then you are not going for high precision, you are going for volume. In that case, almost any of the dies will work well. I have a preference toward the Hornady New Dimension dies, and with volume loading, you can use their seater/crimper just fine. So, in your four-station 550, you would install 1=sizer, 2=powder-thru expander, 3=perhaps a powder cop die? 4=seater/crimper. I would shy away from Lee dies in the 550, as you sometimes do not have enough thread length on the Lee dies to set them as you need to on the 550 (speaking from trying to use Lee dies in pistol caliber loading on my two Dillons).

 

If you are loading for precision target shooting, then you probably want to load on a turret or a single-stage press. Then you might really need to ask what dies are best for precise .45-70 shooting. RCBS and Redding are highly respected, as well as Hornady. Since I've not gotten to the "precise" stage of .45-70 shooting, I'll not make a strong recommendation in that area.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Judson T. Oakley]

Thanks - I do have and have read through my reloading manual but was interested in the opinon of those using the various options out there. I understand the volume vs precision comment but really am not interested in purchasing another press at this time.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I inherited some RCBS dies from my father in various calibers, and none of them have never given my any trouble.

 

However, whenever I buy new dies, I always get Lee's, for the following reasons...

 

1. They cost less.

 

2. They are of good quality, and have never given me any trouble.

 

3. Depending on the caliber, they feature a "powder through the expander" die, which greatly speeds up the reloading process.

 

Other's milage may vary.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Thanks - I do have and have read through my reloading manual but was interested in the opinon of those using the various options out there. I understand the volume vs precision comment but really am not interested in purchasing another press at this time.

 

Well, it's good you have explained now what you are trying to do, at least at the minimal level. You still haven't told us if you are trying to achieve a "cowboy level" or "long-range" level of accuracy. In other words, are you loading for Plainsman with light loads, where accuracy is not very important, or long-range-side-matches, where accuracy helps a lot, or some non-SASS shooting competition, perhaps even with black powder, where the top competitors get really picky about their loading gear and winning accuracy can be MOA or smaller?

 

All that figures into the selection of rifle loading equipment. And, a 550 is NOT what you want to be using for anything but the first category, IMHO. So, before you slough off the suggestion that a non-progressive press might be better able to accomplish what you want, tell us what it is that you DO want. Don't make it tougher to get help than it needs to be.

 

Just some free advice (and worth every penny of that!), if you want to take it, fine; if not, fine by me too.

 

Good luck, and I trust some of our top "long rangers" will pipe in. GJ

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

If you get into the black powder mode a drop tube is used by a lot of people, can be as simple as an old arrow shaft with a funnel at the top, a piece of straight copper tubing or spend big bucks on the lyman drop tube. Some folks just vibrate their cases using there vibratory tumbler or even a personal groomer (those mini razor things) or anything else your imagination leads you to.

 

Some only neck size thier cases as well - another die to buy.

Some do not size at all and just push in a bullet with their thumb.

Some crimp just enough to take out the bell and others particularly those shooting lever guns us a pretty heavy crimp.

 

I am at the stage where I have learned a lot of things that do not work.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

I will second Garrison Joe's advice. He ALWAYS gives good advice. A progressive press is really not the machine to be loading 45-70 on, although I'm sure it is possible on some. I never load 45-70 on either of my Hornady progressive presses, although they are big enough to do it. I have an old used single stage Lyman press that I use for rifle cartridges like 45-70 and 303 British, and some other calibers that I am not set up to load on a progressive press. You can buy a nice single stage press cheap and you don't have to permanently bolt it onto your bench, you can mount it on a piece of plywood and clamp it on when you need it. That's what I do.

 

For what its worth, I use a set of RCBS 45-70 dies. I only load 45-70 with Black Powder, so I use a compression die to compress my powder, but that is not a concern if you are going to be loading for Smokeless.

 

You also should tell us what type of gun you want to load 45-70 for, the techniques are a bit different for single shot rifles and for lever guns.

[Judson T. Oakley]

All good comments and what I am looking for. To be clear - I am really only interested in shooting smokeless for occasional long range side matches. I am shooting a Sharps 1874 (Pedersoli) with a 32 inch barrel. Sounds like I need to look at some single stages presses. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

Sounds like I need to look at some single stages presses. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

A fellow I shoot with has a hobby business of buying reloading equipment at estate sales and flea markets and then reselling the equipment (and other gun stuff he finds) at gun shows. It is possible to find a good used, single stage press at such places. RCBS, Lyman, Lee and others make suitable presses.

[Rio Brazos Kid]

You have gotten some great advice here, specifically to NOT use the 550 for the 45-70. A single stage press for loading this caliber is far and away the better choice. One thing though, get a "O" type press, not the "C" type, which can be a bit springy. The "O" type presses are far and away the better presses for large caliber rifle loading. Probably the cheapest, yet sufficiently strong press that is available today is the LEE Challenger press, which sells for approx. $60. It is sufficiently strong for your purposes, and will accept any brand Reloading Dies and Shell Holders. I specifically recommend Hornady New Dimension Dies, as their seating die is made with an inline sliding alignment sleeve that insures the bullet is always straight as it is inserted into the case, as is used on many competition grade dies. I also recommend using a Redding Profile Crimp Die for final crimping of this cartridge. It is light years ahead of the LEE Factory crimp die.

 

The above equipment will in fact load competition grade ammo, at the most reasonable cost possible.

 

RBK

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Howdy

 

I will second Garrison Joe's advice. He ALWAYS gives good advice. A progressive press is really not the machine to be loading 45-70 on, although I'm sure it is possible on some.

 

I load both .45-70(.45 2 1/10") & .45-90(2 4/10")long range, match grade BP ammo for my Shiloh Sharps on a Dillon 550

Don't let any one tell you that you can't or shouldn't

Cheers,

LG

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I load both .45-70(.45 2 1/10") & .45-90(2 4/10")long range, match grade BP ammo for my Shiloh Sharps on a Dillon 550

Don't let any one tell you that you can't or shouldn't

Cheers,

LG

 

Well, then, don't keep the feller in suspense - tell him what you use for equipment. Figured we were all here to help these new reloader guys, not argue about what can and can't be done.

 

 

My only experience, which works well for me, is a turret press and Hornady New Dimension dies, both BP and smokeless, for side match use.

 

GJ

[Irish Tom]

Judson:

For what it's worth, I load all my 45-70 rounds on a Lee single stage press. I use RCBS dies and they work great. The only problem I have ever run into, is with Hornaday Leverevolution brass. It is too short to reach the crimp portion of the seater/crimping die. I don't shoot enough 45-70 ammo to justify setting up the Dillon 550 for it, plus I can be a little more precise when it comes to powder by weighing the charge for each round.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Both calibers are done in 3 steps on my 550. I use Lyman dies as they "work" the brass much less than the others do.

Step 1 is to "lite" neck size only and prime in pos. 1 move to pos 2, expand the case mouth to .457 and add a very light flare to help start the bullet.

Then in a seperate op. off the press, I charge the case with powder.

Step 2 using the same Lyman die body in pos. 2 that I flared the case with, and now with a compression stem installed in the Lyman die body, I compress the powder with .060" fiber wad on top of the powder. I compress abour .375" DO NOT EVER COMPRESS WITH THE BULLET!

Step 3 in pos 3 I seat the bullet to just touch the top of the compressed charge. I do cover all of the grease grooves of my Paul Jones #45001 Creedmoor bullet that is cast 30:1 alloy(lead:tin).I use DGL bullet lube. Then in pos 4 I have another neck size die set to just close the case mouth flare to allow the round to chamber in my Shiloh Sharps.

No need to crimp for single shot rifles......You just shorten brass life with neck cracks.

Cheers,

LG

[The Shoer 27979]

I compress abour .375" DO NOT EVER COMPRESS WITH THE BULLET! why is that Lumpy inquiring minds would like to know

 

Cheers,

LG

[Rio Brazos Kid]

Judson:

For what it's worth, I load all my 45-70 rounds on a Lee single stage press. I use RCBS dies and they work great. The only problem I have ever run into, is with Hornaday Leverevolution brass. It is too short to reach the crimp portion of the seater/crimping die. I don't shoot enough 45-70 ammo to justify setting up the Dillon 550 for it, plus I can be a little more precise when it comes to powder by weighing the charge for each round.

 

Judson,

This is why I much prefer the Redding Profile crimp die. You can set it to do whatever you wish for the crimp. It initially simply places on a Taper Crimp, which just cozies the case in tight on the bullet. This is all that's necessary or even wanted for ammo to be used in a single shot rifle. However if the ammo will be used in a repeater, and a little roll crimp is needed, simply setting the Profile Crimp die down a bit will cause it to place a roll crimp on. As heavy or lite as you desire... This eliminates any bulging on the loaded case as it applys the taper crimp. The roll crimp is applied only if you want it and set the die for it.

 

I have used these Profile dies on straight sided cases for years, and they do a fantastic job. For bottle neck cases, the Lee Factory crimp die is the only way to go. Lee Factory crimp dies for straight sided cases are a joke, plain and simple, when compared to the Redding die.

 

RBK

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

With that amount of compression(.375")you will damage/deform the bullet beyond use.

The bullets are very soft. 30:1(lead:tin)alloy.

I'm loading match grade ammo for these Shiloh's

BUT, when I'm loading BP for my main match SASS guns. I'm only going to compress about 1/16 of an inch so will do that as I seat the bullet in my D/550.

Cheers,

LG

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Judson,

This is why I much prefer the Redding Profile crimp die. You can set it to do whatever you wish for the crimp. It initially simply places on a Taper Crimp, which just cozies the case in tight on the bullet. This is all that's necessary or even wanted for ammo to be used in a single shot rifle. However if the ammo will be used in a repeater, and a little roll crimp is needed, simply setting the Profile Crimp die down a bit will cause it to place a roll crimp on. As heavy or lite as you desire... This eliminates any bulging on the loaded case as it applys the taper crimp. The roll crimp is applied only if you want it and set the die for it.

 

I have used these Profile dies on straight sided cases for years, and they do a fantastic job. For bottle neck cases, the Lee Factory crimp die is the only way to go. Lee Factory crimp dies for straight sided cases are a joke, plain and simple, when compared to the Redding die.

 

RBK

 

Explain why you feel they are a "joke" for straight sided cases.

I have been reloading for over 45 yrs and started using Lee FCDs when they first came out. I could not be more happy with them. They also have a second sizing ring so you can be sure the round will chamber. No other die has that and at the price Lee gets, you can't beat'em.

Respectfully,

LG

[Takoda Ray]

I have many dies for different calibers but I kinda like the Hornady new dimention dies and the Redding profile crimp die also. I have a permanent spot on my Redding T-7 turret press just for loading my 45-70.With that said,Redding,RCBS,along with the Lee factory crimp die will do a good job for you too.Buy within your means.It's all good.I still have my original single stage press after over 40 years of reloading,a RCBS Rock Chucker.I can't say enough good things about it.Even though I don't use it much,it stays right on the bench with my T-7 and my Dillon 650.I refuse to box it up for storage or to sell.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

I still have the 1967 stamped RCBS "Jr" press my folks bought me for Xmas while I was in high school

Cheers,

LG

[Rio Brazos Kid]

I still have the Rock Chucker I bought used in the early 60's. As they say, that's the (single stage), press that all others are judged by. Still works as good as it did 50 years ago. I use it on all Rifle loads and for any use where power and strength are needed. Things like swaging bullets, and forming cases etc. For short runs of pistol rounds I usually just use the little LEE C press. It's plenty good for that use.

 

Lumpy, If you have never used the Redding Profile Crimp dies, then I understand why you state what you did. I have both in several Pistol calibers. I consider the Lee dies a waste of money, as the Redding dies do a far superior job. I suppose that if the Redding dies weren't available, the LEE die would beat nothing, but the Redding dies do everything a LEE die will do, plus much more. After loading many, many thousands of rounds using them, you will not convince me that the LEE die will even come close to the same effectiveness.

 

NOW, having said that, their Factory Crimp Dies for BOTTLE NECK cases are superb. They however are not even in the same category of the dies they make for straight sided cases. Those dies have a collet inside them that press in a crimp from the side, while exerting absolutely NO vertical pressure on the case. Eliminates crushing / bulging of thin rifle cases, like most of the older early calibers like the 30-30 etc. They in fact effect a perfect Factory like crimp, and do a stellar job of it.

 

If you are happy with the LEE's, then great, but I have found a better mouse trap.

 

RBK

[Marshal Wilkins SASS #57887]

I load 45/70 on a Dillon 550B. I use RCBS 3-Die Set P/N 20951 I bought from Cabela's. You will also need to order the Dillon 45/70 Conversion. Having a complete conversion is the way to go. Since you plan on using smokeless powder it will set up just like any other caliber you have been loading on the 550B. At the powder station only flare the case mouth just enough to start the bullet. It makes ammo that looks just like factory ammo. Check out Western Bullet for smokeless bullets.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

A progressive press is really not the machine to be loading 45-70 on, although I'm sure it is possible on some. I never load 45-70 on either of my Hornady progressive presses, although they are big enough to do it.

I'm relatively new to the this game and so far only know CAS reloading. Haven't seen this topic discussed much in my manuals. Other than trickling a powder charge, why is a single stage more precise than a progressive?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Other than trickling a powder charge, why is a single stage more precise than a progressive?

Have to use measure-thrown charge (unless you want to pull case out of loader to charge)

More slop in the shell head than the shell holder of a single-stage press

Multiple actions take place at once; a shell that is really hard in, say, the sizer, can affect the stroke enough that the other 4 shell operations may be slightly different

Less feel for something strange happening, like a bullet that is seating harder or easier than normal

Can't examine powder levels in 50 cases at a time for consistency

Press itself will have more flex than especially a large O frame single-stage.

Difficult to seat primers with a hand tool, which most precision rifle shooters will do.

Jerking of the shell plate may kick out a few powder granules unnoticed.

 

So, overall, a progressive is not the choice of most high-precision shooters.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

I'm relatively new to the this game and so far only know CAS reloading. Haven't seen this topic discussed much in my manuals. Other than trickling a powder charge, why is a single stage more precise than a progressive?

 

Well, Garrison Joe beat me to it. My main reason for not loading 45-70 on a progressive is that I only load it with Black Powder. I pour the powder charge in separately using a drop tube. No way to do that on a progressive press. And I seldom make up more than 100 45-70 rounds at a time. It just takes a little over an hour to make up that many on a single stage press, and I actually enjoy running each case through the press one at a time for all the operations of loading on a single stage press.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Thanks Joe and Driftwood. Knew I could count on a great explanation.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

I'm relatively new to the this game and so far only know CAS reloading. Haven't seen this topic discussed much in my manuals. Other than trickling a powder charge, why is a single stage more precise than a progressive?

It's NOT.....

You CAN load match grade ammo(BP & smokeless)on a "progressive"!

Anydangbody who sez you CAN'T, is DEAD WRONG

I have been loading match grade ammo on my Dillon since 1987

Cheers,

LG

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

RBK,

The redding profile crimp die sounds interesting, but don't sell the lee fcd short. The fcd in straight wall rifle cases is a collet die just like the dies for bottle neck cartridges.

[TN Mongo, SASS #61450]

As Lumpy Gitts already stated, I would not crimp for your rifle. The only down-side of a 550 press is that you might not get as consistent of an OAL as you would with a single stage press. The group of guys I shoot with checks OAL often and weighs each powder charge.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

No issue with OAL ever in my 550

Cheers,

LG

[TN Mongo, SASS #61450]

Lumpy,

 

Regular main match ammo made on my Dillon 650 varies a little bit from round to round. Some of my .38 rounds come off the 650 at 1.52 OAL, some is 1.54 and so on. What I was trying to say is that if you want every round to be exactly the same OAL, every time, a single stage may be the way to go.

[Presidio]

All good comments and what I am looking for. To be clear - I am really only interested in shooting smokeless for occasional long range side matches. I am shooting a Sharps 1874 (Pedersoli) with a 32 inch barrel. Sounds like I need to look at some single stages presses. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

This will take of your needs without breaking the bank:

 

(1) http://leeprecision.com/xcart/Reloader-Press.html

[John Boy]

Judson, let's cut to the chase. You want and need a single stage press to load the few rounds that you will be shooting plus a set of dies for the 45-70 that will be loaded with nitro powder, not black.

 

If I have loaded and shot thousands of 45-70's, that chamber perfectly and shoot accurately out to 1000 yds using

* Lee Perfect Powder Measure

* Lee 3 Hole Turret Press ... http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=LEE90496

* Lee 45-70 Dies

... You can get perfect reloads too and not go broke with the price using the Lee Products.

 

Edit: You will also need the Lee Expander Die and a proper plug from Track of the Wolf to expand the case neck for 0.001 to 0.002 neck tension and create the bell

 

I only use the Dillon 550B for 45 Colts