Shooting "Military" style

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

First of all, I am in NO WAY suggesting any kind of a new category.

 

This is merely an idea that crossed my mind, that, if a pard wanted to shoot in a way similar to the way a Trooper in the US Cavalry might have done, what would he use?

 

For pistols, it's pretty obvious, either a 7.5" Colt or a Schofield revolver, but after that, it gets a little more subjective.

 

If you go from the assumption that you don't have to lock yourself into a specific year, than the only main match rifles that saw any significant use by US soldiers were the Henry and the Spencer, albeit only they were both pretty much sold off as surplus soon after the Civil War. On the other hand, it has been reported that many soldiers out on the frontier would spend their own money sometimes to buy a Winchester or other rifle for personal use. What would seem to be, if not the most historically accurate, the most likely candidate from a popular imagination point of view? My gut reaction is a Winchester 73, but as soon as I say it, it seems wrong to me somehow.

 

As far as a shotgun goes, even though I am parital to other things, I have a feeling that a SxS would have been the shotgun of choice. The 97 came out too late in the period, I feel, to be of any significant use by soldiers out west. The 87... Well... Again, a latecomer to the scene, relatively speaking, and I again don't think it would have been all that popular. With all that mind mind, WHICH shotgun would have been the most likely choice back in the day? Hammered or hammerless? Which makes/models had a reputation back then for rugged reliability? What would a soldier who really wanted a shotgun, be most likely to spend his hard earned pay on? Something relatively inexpensive, or would he save up for something of higher quality?

 

Now, sure, probably in reality, once it was available, the Winchester 86 would have been highly coveted, shooting the same ammo as the Trapdoors and all, but they are not an option for a main match rifle, so that rules them out.

 

All highly speculative, of course. Anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

[Steel-eye Steve SASS #40674]

First of all, I am in NO WAY suggesting any kind of a new category.

 

This is merely an idea that crossed my mind, that, if a pard wanted to shoot in a way similar to the way a Trooper in the US Cavalry might have done, what would he use?

 

For pistols, it's pretty obvious, either a 7.5" Colt or a Schofield revolver, but after that, it gets a little more subjective.

 

If you go from the assumption that you don't have to lock yourself into a specific year, than the only main match rifles that saw any significant use by US soldiers were the Henry and the Spencer, albeit only they were both pretty much sold off as surplus soon after the Civil War. On the other hand, it has been reported that many soldiers out on the frontier would spend their own money sometimes to buy a Winchester or other rifle for personal use. What would seem to be, if not the most historically accurate, the most likely candidate from a popular imagination point of view? My gut reaction is a Winchester 73, but as soon as I say it, it seems wrong to me somehow.

 

As far as a shotgun goes, even though I am parital to other things, I have a feeling that a SxS would have been the shotgun of choice. The 97 came out too late in the period, I feel, to be of any significant use by soldiers out west. The 87... Well... Again, a latecomer to the scene, relatively speaking, and I again don't think it would have been all that popular. With all that mind mind, WHICH shotgun would have been the most likely choice back in the day? Hammered or hammerless? Which makes/models had a reputation back then for rugged reliability? What would a soldier who really wanted a shotgun, be most likely to spend his hard earned pay on? Something relatively inexpensive, or would he save up for something of higher quality?

 

Now, sure, probably in reality, once it was available, the Winchester 86 would have been highly coveted, shooting the same ammo as the Trapdoors and all, but they are not an option for a main match rifle, so that rules them out.

 

All highly speculative, of course. Anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

 

Spencers were issued as Cavalry weapons until replaced by the 1873 trapdoor carbine. I have seen one photo of a officer with a Henry in the mid to late 1860s but have never found any references to 73 Winchesters. I have read that Terry looked into getting repeaters right after the Little Big Horn but was told only Spencer rifles were available and he declined. By the time the 73 would have been available, most private purchase of long arms was done by officers as the enlisted had little money. Most of the weapons purchased were more likely Sharps and Rolling Blocks. One of Reno's officers at the Little Big Horn had a scope sighted Sharps and is credited for firing the first and last shots of the Battle as well silencing at least one Indian sharpshooter during siege of the Reno-Benteen area. Custer of course carried his 50-70 Rolling Block sporting rifle.

 

As far as shotguns were concerned, there was a 20 gauge conversion of the trapdoor that was issued to troops for hunting. Occasionally you can run into them. I know of one cowboy shooter who restored one and occasionally used it in matches.

[Phiren Smoke GUNFIGHTER]

Many of the Illinois volunteers commanded by General John A. Logan went to war with personally purchased Henry repeaters. It would be conceivable a young man that bought a Henry to go to war could buy a internal hammered sxs. They were available just not common. As you say the only repeating shotguns allowed in our game did not exist until 20 years after the war.

 

If I were to gear up for this I would go with the Henry and either Colt 1860 Armies or Remington 1858 Armies with conversion cylinders. For a shotgun If I could find one of the color case hardened TTN's or maybe an engraved hammered double simulating a high end gun of the time.

 

Interesting concept.

 

Smoke

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

And this is exactly the way "Theme" or "Costume" ideas should be handled.

Find a theme that YOU enjoy and have at it.

 

Dress the way you wish, equip yourself as you wish and play the game without clamoring for another or a protected category.

My hat is off to you.

 

 

[Utah Bob #35998]

I can't imagine a soldier purchasing a shotgun except perhaps some of the more wealthy officers who might have a fowling piece for sport.

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

You could certainly shoot the artillery model pistol common to the era with the 5 or 5.5 inch barrel. The early levers Henry's, 66s and 73 are representative of the period. John Wayne certainly used early preproduction prototypes of the 92 sarting at the end of the Civil war. I agree with your assessment of the shotgun SxS.

Flap holsters are probably the hot tip. If you use a cap box or one of the Pistol Pouches one can carry rifle reload rounds. I think wearing the holsters backwards and executing a straight draw would be a lot simpler than learing how to properly execute a draw from butt forward.

 

LTC Scratch actually has holsters with removable flaps he takes off for the actual shooting and has in place while running around in his Rough Rider Capacity.

 

There are pretty good uniform options out there as well. Frontiersman screams for 1858 (Dark blue)or 1861 pants (light blue) and Remington NMA or 1860 Colt Pistols. Conversion cyllinders for these pistols would allow for frontier cartridge and cover the period before the 1873 pistol aka peacemaker was issued. Crossed Cannon and Sabers were good for the entire period. If you want to be an infantryman the hunting horn is correct prior to 1876 and Crossed Rifles correct from 76 on. If you are a civil war period officer the Captain and 1LT bars were gold. They changed to silver with the 1872 reg. The yellow of the Cav changed to a dark yellow in 1887 till 1898. The grand army of the frontier website has the 1875 clothing reg. Trousers changed in 1872 with officers wearing the wide stripe vs the essentially piping of the Civil War Era. In 1885 the infantry branch color changed from light blue to white and then back to blue again in 1902.

 

You can certainly have fun coming up with a proper uniform for what ever period. Contrary to what is in the movies, shoulderboards were really never worn on the blue shirt. This is not to say that I do not wear them on my shirt as it passes the John Wayne Test. I also conveniently forget about the branch color change to white for my shoulder boards during the Spanish American and Philipine Insurection periods just to wear my actual infantry captain shoulder boards. Figure I earned em.

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

I can't imagine a soldier purchasing a shotgun except perhaps some of the more wealthy officers who might have a fowling piece for sport.

Hey Bob

 

Ya think they may have actually had shotguns for guard duty? Not trying to be a wiseass, just asking a legitimate question.

[Curley Cole, SASS #56849]

SheBang

 

You might check with the folks at 5Dogs. They have put on a couple of fine "military" or "victorian" matches. They shoot regular stages, but those shooting military do it with one pistol and a long gun (Old Top shot a trapdoor and Cole Harbour shot a 92 in 32/20) and a shotgun.

 

The military shooters had to shoot at longer range targets. They all enjoyed Tops trapdoor so much that they stayed around after the match to shoot it.

 

The link above is pix of that match.

 

if any questions just holler

 

curley

[Utah Bob #35998]

Hey Bob

 

Ya think they may have actually had shotguns for guard duty? Not trying to be a wiseass, just asking a legitimate question.

 

Indian Scouts were sometimes armed with reamed out rifles converted to shotguns but as far as I know there weren't any shotguns in the military inventory until the 97 came along.

[Six-Shot]

 

 

This is merely an idea that crossed my mind, that, if a pard wanted to shoot in a way similar to the way a Trooper in the US Cavalry might have done, what would he use?

 

For pistols, it's pretty obvious, either a 7.5" Colt or a Schofield revolver, but after that, it gets a little more subjective.

 

If you go from the assumption that you don't have to lock yourself into a specific year, than the only main match rifles that saw any significant use by US soldiers were the Henry and the Spencer, albeit only they were both pretty much sold off as surplus soon after the Civil War. On the other hand, it has been reported that many soldiers out on the frontier would spend their own money sometimes to buy a Winchester or other rifle for personal use. What would seem to be, if not the most historically accurate, the most likely candidate from a popular imagination point of view? My gut reaction is a Winchester 73, but as soon as I say it, it seems wrong to me somehow.

 

As far as a shotgun goes, even though I am parital to other things, I have a feeling that a SxS would have been the shotgun of choice. The 97 came out too late in the period, I feel, to be of any significant use by soldiers out west. The 87... Well... Again, a latecomer to the scene, relatively speaking, and I again don't think it would have been all that popular. With all that mind mind, WHICH shotgun would have been the most likely choice back in the day? Hammered or hammerless?

All highly speculative, of course. Anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

 

H.K. I've been thinking about this very topic all week because I'm going to shoot a six stage match this Saturday at Sig Academy in Epping. I'm going to wear 1870's cavalry wool because its going to be COOOOOOLD with possible snow showers. I'm considering shooting a pair of S&W .45 Schofields but I've been wrestling with what rifle and shotgun to shoot with them. I agree a '73 does not seem right because they were never issued to the military. Neither was a '66. There were some Henry's and Spencer's still in use in the '70's. A '66 or '73 musket would be ideal but not many were produced and I don't have either anyway (no clones were ever made by Uberti, etc. that I'm aware of). I have a Henry and a Spencer but as you must be aware a Spencer only holds 7 cartridges so I'll have to do a reload on-the-clock. As for a shotgun the earliest centerfire SXS was the Colt 1878 which had external hammers. I have a 12g Baikal "clone".

 

Are you goin'? If so, I'll see you there.

 

Six-Shot

[Tom Bullweed]

You could look for one of them Hollywierd Trapdoors that never need loading. They seem to have a magazine of bottomless proportions.

 

Northwest Royal Canadians (Mounties) carried 1876 that looked very, very similar to the '73. Shotguns were provided for outposts for hunting and general vermin purposes, probably SxS's with external hammers. Longer barrels would have been more period correct.

 

The other options, as others have stated, is military scout. Pick the guns that you want wand wear some portion of military outfit.

 

I have often thought of doing a mustered-out Confederate soldier in partial uniform, Henry, 1860 Army's, and a single-barrel scattergun. Think Josie Wales.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Indian Scouts were sometimes armed with reamed out rifles converted to shotguns but as far as I know there weren't any shotguns in the military inventory until the 97 came along.

 

Maybe in the Federal inventory. Confederate cavalry did bloody work with short double barrel percussion shotguns and 2-6 revolvers, eschewing the saber favored by the bluebellies.

 

If there were no shotguns used by troopers in the Indian Wars what did the "foragers" harvest birds for the pot with?

 

Six Shot there were numerous 2row break open shotguns before the 1878 Colt. The Colt was just the most successful and common found but oh at least about 12 years behind the first.

[Curley Cole, SASS #56849]

Soldier and Scout

 

Here is how me and Old Top geared up for the match.

 

and the weapons used were:

 

Old Top:

1875 Remington or Schofield

24" Liberty 2 double

Original Trapdoor

 

Curley:

Pair o 1875 Remingtons

1873 EMF 73 (second day was an EMF 66)

20" LIberty 2 double

 

We had a blast thanks to the folks at 5Dogs.and look foward to going again

 

curley

[Shakey Merlot]

Howdy,

 

I occasionally shoot 1872 Open Tops and a Spencer carbine in military uniform. Many cavalry units were armed with the Spencer until at least 1874 as the 1873 trapdoors were issued as they became available. As to shotguns, many units would probably have one or two in their armory for bird and small game hunting for the company cookpot. These could have been privately purchased by the officers or, more likely, with the company "slush fund". They would have been used primarily by the best marksmen to gather as much food as possible to feed the company. I would imagine anything was better than beans, salt pork and hardtack.

 

After 1874 or 1875, only trapdoors were used, except for officers who may have purchased a rifle privately. Perhaps some long-service First Sergeants or Sergeants Major may also have carried personal arms, although the regulations of the time and the personal opinions of the officers may have precluded this.

 

Shakey

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Although never issued by the goverment as a "issued weapon", shotguns were prevalent in the hands of military men. Called "buck and ball" loads, the shotgun weapons were used extensively during the War of 1812 by US Military members, privately purchased, or "brought from home". Confederate soldiers used shotguns brought along from the family farms, etc when they enlisted, and used during battle. General Custer had several privately purchased shotguns he used to hunt with while stationed. The first issued extensively to troop was to the Marines, during the Philippine Uprising, and General Pershing's pursuit of Pancho Villa. MT

[Utah Bob #35998]

Although never issued by the goverment as a "issued weapon", shotguns were prevalent in the hands of military men. Called "buck and ball" loads, the shotgun weapons were used extensively during the War of 1812 by US Military members, privately purchased, or "brought from home". Confederate soldiers used shotguns brought along from the family farms, etc when they enlisted, and used during battle. General Custer had several privately purchased shotguns he used to hunt with while stationed. The first issued extensively to troop was to the Marines, during the Philippine Uprising, and General Pershing's pursuit of Pancho Villa. MT

Actually, Buck & Ball loads were fired from smoothbore muskets, not shotguns. Usually 69 caliber.

Shotguns were used by Rebs, but the common load was just buckshot.

I do not believe that a common soldier on the western frontier would have had access to a shotgun.

The shotgun is a special purpose weapon when it comes to combat and not utilized in any numbers by the military until the 20th century.

[Steel-eye Steve SASS #40674]

Maybe in the Federal inventory. Confederate cavalry did bloody work with short double barrel percussion shotguns and 2-6 revolvers, eschewing the saber favored by the bluebellies.

 

If there were no shotguns used by troopers in the Indian Wars what did the "foragers" harvest birds for the pot with?

 

Six Shot there were numerous 2row break open shotguns before the 1878 Colt. The Colt was just the most successful and common found but oh at least about 12 years behind the first.

While the Confederate shotguns look cool and menacing by today's standards, but they were mainly carried because they were available (often used more as sidearms), most often brought from home. They were generally abandoned as better carbines and pistols became available, however decent carbines and even pistols were in short supply in the south. Much has been made of the numbers of revolvers carried by Confederate Cavalry but for every trooper carrying more then two, you had men carrying old single shot horse pistols or the above mentioned shotguns as side arms. The saber wasn't really favored by the "bluebellies." The breech-loading carbine was. It would not be until second half of the war that Union cavalry was good enough with their horses to become effective with the saber. The earliest signs of this transformation was Brandy Station and Custer's engagement on the third day of Gettysburg.

 

As for shotguns issued to the post Civil War army on the plains, which I think is the time frame intended in the original post, 20 gauge conversions of the trapdoor rifle were issued for use by "foragers." As I mentioned in an earlier post, a friend of mine had restored one and occasionally used it in CAS matches. It's a neat gun but not something I would use as service weapon, even for something like guard duty. As for buying their own shotguns, officers yes, but enlisted pay was extremely low and affording even cheap shotguns would have been difficult.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

H.K. I've been thinking about this very topic all week because I'm going to shoot a six stage match this Saturday at Sig Academy in Epping. I'm going to wear 1870's cavalry wool because its going to be COOOOOOLD with possible snow showers. I'm considering shooting a pair of S&W .45 Schofields but I've been wrestling with what rifle and shotgun to shoot with them. I agree a '73 does not seem right because they were never issued to the military. Neither was a '66. There were some Henry's and Spencer's still in use in the '70's. A '66 or '73 musket would be ideal but not many were produced and I don't have either anyway (no clones were ever made by Uberti, etc. that I'm aware of). I have a Henry and a Spencer but as you must be aware a Spencer only holds 7 cartridges so I'll have to do a reload on-the-clock. As for a shotgun the earliest centerfire SXS was the Colt 1878 which had external hammers. I have a 12g Baikal "clone".

 

Are you goin'? If so, I'll see you there.

 

Six-Shot

 

Ah! The 73 musket would work well in this concept. I had not thought of that. I've seen some pics of them and have always thought it would be cool own one. An interesting idea to be sure.

 

As far as Epping goes, the jury is still out. I've never been, but it's not to far and I hear it's a good place. We'll see what the weather does and how a few other factors fall into place.

[Seamus McGillicuddy]

Shoot it like Plainsman; a .45/70 Trapdoor firing 5 rounds instead of ten.

Mule ear SxS

1858 Remi, Schofield or Colt up to the SAA.

 

Seamus

[Noz]

Actually, Buck & Ball loads were fired from smoothbore muskets, not shotguns. Usually 69 caliber.

Shotguns were used by Rebs, but the common load was just buckshot.

I do not believe that a common soldier on the western frontier would have had access to a shotgun.

The shotgun is a special purpose weapon when it comes to combat and not utilized in any numbers by the military until the 20th century.

I have a 69 cal. smoothbore with 1836 on the lock plate. I has been converted from flint to percussion by breaking the frizzen and pan off of the lock and turning the barrel so that a nipple could be threaded into the flash hole. A bent percussion hammer was added.

I found it in my Grandfathers closet when I was about 9 yrs old and was allowed to purchase power and caps because it "wasn't a real gun". It was my humting gun until I was about 12 and go my first 22.

[Six-Shot]

Shoot it like Plainsman; a .45/70 Trapdoor firing 5 rounds instead of ten.

Mule ear SxS

1858 Remi, Schofield or Colt up to the SAA.

 

Seamus

 

Seamus, I have an 1873 "trapdoor" rifle and an 1876 "trapdoor" carbine but SASS rules do NOT allow single shot rifles without lever actions as "main match" guns.

 

I think H.K.'s original post was about "what military guns can you use in a SASS main match without creating a whole new category" but . . . if we could get a "rule change" to allow single-shot rifles in .45-70 (or smaller) allowed as main match rifles and only shoot 5 rifle shots instead of 10 (as you suggested) it would be do-able and still be competitive with other blackpowder categories without taking a great deal of time. If H.K. or you or others want to contact SASS and get something started perhaps by next year's TG meeting a rule change could be brought up for consideration. If so, you can count on my support.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Actually, Buck & Ball loads were fired from smoothbore muskets, not shotguns. Usually 69 caliber.

Shotguns were used by Rebs, but the common load was just buckshot.

I do not believe that a common soldier on the western frontier would have had access to a shotgun.

You are correct in that smoothbore muskets were used, the shotgun goes back to its ancestry, "fowling piece". Which were arefinement of the large caliber smoothbores. The combat shotgun is more kinship to the blunderbuss. But the definition of a shotgun, basically, of a smoothbore, and firing pellets, or slugs, would encompass the muskets use at the War of 1812, definition of early "shotgun" use. Under weapons of War, they also give credit of the use of smoothbore muskets, as "shotgun like loads".

Many who travelled west to seek a new home or gold in California, had as their main firearm a front loading shotgun for food and protection. Teens, and youngsters, or those dishardened in not finding gold, joined the military, along with their horse(s), sidearms, and long guns, sometimes shotguns. Same as in clothing and uniforms, especially those cheaply made footwear. A recruit, or soldier used equipment he brought along. Some individuals not issued pistols, would buy them also. Not much different from 20th century soldiers.

Some of these things I got out of a long out of print book. Out West Outposts, and Buffalo Soldier book. MT

[Seamus McGillicuddy]

Six Shot,

 

My suggestion was not to create a new SASS approved catagory but just for a fun option at a monthly club match (maybe a special posse) or even a special Military Match someone might want to create. Some clubs do allow use of single shot rifles, I've used my own Trapdoor carbine as well as my .577 Snider Carbine & its a hoot even if I come in last. A SASS reule to permit this would be fine with me but I'm not holding my breath to see it happen...

 

Seaums

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

Howdy,

 

I occasionally shoot 1872 Open Tops and a Spencer carbine in military uniform. Many cavalry units were armed with the Spencer until at least 1874 as the 1873 trapdoors were issued as they became available. As to shotguns, many units would probably have one or two in their armory for bird and small game hunting for the company cookpot. These could have been privately purchased by the officers or, more likely, with the company "slush fund". They would have been used primarily by the best marksmen to gather as much food as possible to feed the company. I would imagine anything was better than beans, salt pork and hardtack.

 

After 1874 or 1875, only trapdoors were used, except for officers who may have purchased a rifle privately. Perhaps some long-service First Sergeants or Sergeants Major may also have carried personal arms, although the regulations of the time and the personal opinions of the officers may have precluded this.

 

Shakey

There was a first sergeant in Reno position at Little Bighorn with a sharps rifle

[Utah Bob #35998]

You are correct in that smoothbore muskets were used, the shotgun goes back to its ancestry, "fowling piece". Which were arefinement of the large caliber smoothbores. The combat shotgun is more kinship to the blunderbuss. But the definition of a shotgun, basically, of a smoothbore, and firing pellets, or slugs, would encompass the muskets use at the War of 1812, definition of early "shotgun" use. Under weapons of War, they also give credit of the use of smoothbore muskets, as "shotgun like loads".

Many who travelled west to seek a new home or gold in California, had as their main firearm a front loading shotgun for food and protection. Teens, and youngsters, or those dishardened in not finding gold, joined the military, along with their horse(s), sidearms, and long guns, sometimes shotguns. Same as in clothing and uniforms, especially those cheaply made footwear. A recruit, or soldier used equipment he brought along. Some individuals not issued pistols, would buy them also. Not much different from 20th century soldiers.

Some of these things I got out of a long out of print book. Out West Outposts, and Buffalo Soldier book. MT

 

I'll keep my eye out for that book. In m y research, I've not run across any accounts of soldiers enlisting with their own horses and arms outside of the volunteers of the CW period. The Army would certainly have balked at the logistics problems created by personnel equipped with a wide variety of civilian weapons. The military was also generally well equipped with uniforms although a certain amount of variation from regs was sometimes tacitly permitted for practical reasons. Of course that goes for any far flung outposts in almost any conflict.

I just haven't come across anything that would indicate that was a normal practice. The frontier army was pretty well organized despite the remote areas in which they were tasked with campaigning. Other than the already noted use of shotguns for foraging and officer's recreation I just haven't found any evidence that scatterguns were at all common among the ranks during the Indian War period.

[Cornbread lawman]

While not strictly a military unit the Texas Rangers prior to say the mid 70's was pretty much a come as you are affair. From what I've read they were expected to provide there basic equipment themselves. Ie a horse and arms