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"UNDER THE DIRECT SUPERVISION"


PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

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another point, this weekend I had a super fast shooter get his pistol(first gun ) caught in hammer strap when he drew first pistol(no shots down range yet), I stopped him but he had it cocked, I was TO, so took pistol and decocked, checked to make sure empty chamber was under hammer and returned his pistol to him, he then started over but either I AS TO DID NOT GET EMPTY CHAMBER UNDER HAMMER, or he did not fully cock hammer on one clyinder( I gave him the choice of reshooting because it could have been my fault, but he told me I had already gave him a reshoot, and he was not sure it was my fault, so he would take the score as was) if you are TO and do uncock a pistol . MAKE SURE THE HAMMER IS DOWN ON A EMPTY CHAMBER BEFORE YOU HAND PISTOL BACK TO SHOOTER.....I know some TO's will send shooter to unloading table, but in this case I just restarted him.....I think I did everything right, just wish I had checked empty chamber under the hammer closer, will next time if it ever happens again, was a first for me

 

 

Ummmmm, you should've NEVER taken a cocked loaded gun from the shooters hands, unless there is some extreme emergency type reason... like a heart attack or a malfunctioned cocked loading gun would qualify too.

 

Either let HIM de-cock the gun (ummm no!!!) or instruct him to just shoot the round down range,,, off the clock,, no score... and let him reload the one round,,, check for hammer down on empty and then go for the reshoot.

 

I have absolutely no problem with what you were attempting to do,,,, give the guy a reshoot.

 

JMHO....

 

 

Blastmaster

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+1... wow..How about I deal with my own gun downrange in a safe manner?

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+1... wow..How about I deal with my own gun downrange in a safe manner?

 

+2.

 

The ONLY time the T/O should be handling any firearm on the line MIGHT be if the shooter is unfamiliar with the operation of the gun (or in a "hand off" situation).

If a shooter does NOT know how to DE-COCK or otherwise make a firearm safe, further training would be advisable in a NON-match setting.

 

IMO

 

PWB

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Copied from Pale Wolf's post:

*************************************************

7. De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or location once a round has gone down range.

...

8. Once a revolver is cocked, the round under the hammer must be expended in order for it to be returned to a safe condition.

...

9. If a firearm is shot out of sequence or from the wrong position or location, the shooter will be awarded a single procedural penalty.

*******************************************

 

I get all that and believe I understand it. My problem is with what seems to be the definition of decocking. If the "..except by pointing the gun down range and pulling the trigger..." part of the section on "Decocking" means you can fire the gun and does not mean decock without firing consider this scenario:

 

TO calls "cease fire" in the middle of a shooter's stage. He stops immediately but has a loaded and cocked firearm in his hand(s). The TO is "directly supervising" the shooter with every fiber of his being and tells the shooter to "decock". The shooter then pulls the trigger with the gun pointed down range FIRING the gun. Is ANYONE ok with that? It fits the rule, as defined, doesn't it? When does "decock" mean "fire" and when does "decock" mean "lower the hammer safely without firing"?

 

In my world "decock" means to lower the hammer safely and does not include firing the gun.

 

I still maintain the section of the rule I mentioned is poorly written and needs a rewrite.

 

Angus

I'm done now, so I'm sure a bunch of you will be happy. :D

I will also do my best to avoid any future "What's your call" threads which should make Pale Wolf ecstatic. B)

 

p.s. Pale Wolf thanks for your patience. I'm sure this would have been much quicker and simpler in real life.

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Ummmmm, you should've NEVER taken a cocked loaded gun from the shooters hands, unless there is some extreme emergency type reason... like a heart attack or a malfunctioned cocked loading gun would qualify too.

 

Either let HIM de-cock the gun (ummm no!!!) or instruct him to just shoot the round down range,,, off the clock,, no score... and let him reload the one round,,, check for hammer down on empty and then go for the reshoot.

 

I have absolutely no problem with what you were attempting to do,,,, give the guy a reshoot.

 

JMHO....

 

 

Blastmaster

 

Glad you pointed that out, will do the right thing next time......

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+2.

 

The ONLY time the T/O should be handling any firearm on the line MIGHT be if the shooter is unfamiliar with the operation of the gun (or in a "hand off" situation).

If a shooter does NOT know how to DE-COCK or otherwise make a firearm safe, further training would be advisable in a NON-match setting.

 

IMO

 

PWB

 

He did know, that's for sure, it was my mistake....will learn from it, Thanks PW

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Copied from Pale Wolf's post:

*************************************************

7. De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or location once a round has gone down range.

...

8. Once a revolver is cocked, the round under the hammer must be expended in order for it to be returned to a safe condition.

...

9. If a firearm is shot out of sequence or from the wrong position or location, the shooter will be awarded a single procedural penalty.

*******************************************

 

I get all that and believe I understand it. My problem is with what seems to be the definition of decocking. If the "..except by pointing the gun down range and pulling the trigger..." part of the section on "Decocking" means you can fire the gun and does not mean decock without firing consider this scenario:

 

TO calls "cease fire" in the middle of a shooter's stage. He stops immediately but has a loaded and cocked firearm in his hand(s). The TO is "directly supervising" the shooter with every fiber of his being and tells the shooter to "decock". The shooter then pulls the trigger with the gun pointed down range FIRING the gun. Is ANYONE ok with that? It fits the rule, as defined, doesn't it? When does "decock" mean "fire" and when does "decock" mean "lower the hammer safely without firing"?

 

In my world "decock" means to lower the hammer safely and does not include firing the gun.

 

I still maintain the section of the rule I mentioned is poorly written and needs a rewrite.

 

Angus

I'm done now, so I'm sure a bunch of you will be happy. :D

I will also do my best to avoid any future "What's your call" threads which should make Pale Wolf ecstatic. B)

 

p.s. Pale Wolf thanks for your patience. I'm sure this would have been much quicker and simpler in real life.

 

I could be a bit foggy on this but as I recall the discussion leading up to this rules section is as follows:

 

The only method of decocking and making safe a revolver is to discharge it down range. Discussion then followed that there were times that the revolver could not be fired down range due to a malfunction or similar and an additional method of making the revolver safe was needed. To accomodate the, unable to discharge downrange situation, the "under direct supervision" part was added. This allowed the TO to oversee as the shooter used whatever method was appropriate to make the revolver safe.

Maybe this will help but if not I'm sure someone will let me know.

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Black Angus,

 

I am happy!! :)

 

 

About the only time (I can think of) a person can de-cock a revolver as you are thinking is "if" there is a reload on the clock and the shooter is shooting a colt clone style of revolver and he needs to open gate, cock hammer and whatever else is needed to get the sixth round loaded and get back to business.

 

I believe Rowdy gave another in the process of getting a malfunctioned revolver back to a safe mode.

 

Blastmaster

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Black Angus,

 

I am happy!! :)

 

 

About the only time (I can think of) a person can de-cock a revolver as you are thinking is "if" there is a reload on the clock and the shooter is shooting a colt clone style of revolver and he needs to open gate, cock hammer and whatever else is needed to get the sixth round loaded and get back to business.

 

I believe Rowdy gave another in the process of getting a malfunctioned revolver back to a safe mode.

 

Blastmaster

 

Actually, in that situation, there would be no need to de-cock the revolver after the reload...simply bring the hammer to full-cock and commence to shootin'. ;)

 

Rowdy pretty much covered the "WHY" of allowing de-cocking under supervision.

Examples of those situations where DE-COCKING (i.e. lowering the hammer SAFELY on an unfired round) might be the safest option are:

 

1) Shooter cocks revolver 'out of sequence' BEFORE a round has gone downrange.

Shooter could DE-COCK to reindex the cylinder for a RESTART.

(usually happens when the start position is "hands on revolver(s)" and the first firearm is a long gun) :rolleyes:

 

2) While handling a SQUIB situation. De-cocking in order to make the firearm safe to leave the shooter's hands (either grounded or 'handed off')...or before removing the firearm to the ULT/safe area to address the malfunction.

Obviously, the round under the hammer should NOT be fired downrange if there is the possibility of a barrel obstruction.

 

3) After a "CEASE FIRE"/Red Flag situation in order to get the firearm SAFELY to the ULT to prepare for a reshoot.

Depending on the reason for the CEASE FIRE, discharging the round downrange might NOT be an option.

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another point, this weekend I had a super fast shooter get his pistol(first gun ) caught in hammer strap when he drew first pistol(no shots down range yet), I stopped him but he had it cocked, I was TO, so took pistol and decocked, checked to make sure empty chamber was under hammer and returned his pistol to him, he then started over but either I AS TO DID NOT GET EMPTY CHAMBER UNDER HAMMER, or he did not fully cock hammer on one clyinder( I gave him the choice of reshooting because it could have been my fault, but he told me I had already gave him a reshoot, and he was not sure it was my fault, so he would take the score as was) if you are TO and do uncock a pistol . MAKE SURE THE HAMMER IS DOWN ON A EMPTY CHAMBER BEFORE YOU HAND PISTOL BACK TO SHOOTER.....I know some TO's will send shooter to unloading table, but in this case I just restarted him.....I think I did everything right, just wish I had checked empty chamber under the hammer closer, will next time if it ever happens again, was a first for me

 

I might be reading your post wrong....but...

 

Why was his gun cocked before leaving the holster??

 

Rules dictate:

 

A shooter shall not cock any revolver until the firearm is pointed safely down range. While

 

on the firing line, any discharge of any firearm impacting within ten-feet of the shooter is

 

unsafe and will result in disqualification from the stage or, if less than five feet, from the

 

match.

 

 

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

 

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I might be reading your post wrong....but...

 

Why was his gun cocked before leaving the holster??

 

...

 

I kinda wondered about the exact circumstances in the incident as well...

Minor Safety Penalties

...

• Cocking a revolver before it reaches 45 degrees downrange.

RO1 p.25
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I might be reading your post wrong....but...

 

Why was his gun cocked before leaving the holster??

 

Rules dictate:

 

A shooter shall not cock any revolver until the firearm is pointed safely down range. While

 

on the firing line, any discharge of any firearm impacting within ten-feet of the shooter is

 

unsafe and will result in disqualification from the stage or, if less than five feet, from the

 

match.

 

 

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

 

 

He did not cock until it was pointed down range, he is a fast shooter, but since he had not fired the first shot I was stopping him to allow him to start again......the barrel caught on his strap, and it took some time(maybe a few 10ths of a second) for him to clear it and get it ponited down range, so I hollered for him to stop so he could start fresh, but he is so fast he had already cocked the pistol before he heard me, at that point in time I told him to start over, but he showed me that he had already cocked, in reading the responses here, it seems I should have let him put the hammer down(by shooting down range) and then sent him to the unloading table to unload, then back to loading table to reload so he could reshoot?

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he did nothing wrong, but seems I handled it wrong, from you guys I am learning the correct way in case it ever happens again

 

Glad to hear that...thanks for the clarification! ;)

 

There are a number of options available in that situation.

Examples:

1) Allow the shooter to safely DE-COCK in order to RESTART.

2) Have the shooter FIRE the round safely downrange off the clock...

then either:

2a) replace the fired round, reindex and RESTART.

OR

2b) direct the shooter to either the LT or the ULT to prepare for a RESTART

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Thanks Carolina Cowboy...the post kinda confused me. Appreciate the clarification....and YES, I am learning alot on this thread too.

 

GG

GG

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He did not cock until it was pointed down range, he is a fast shooter, but since he had not fired the first shot I was stopping him to allow him to start again......the barrel caught on his strap, and it took some time(maybe a few 10ths of a second) for him to clear it and get it ponited down range, so I hollered for him to stop so he could start fresh, but he is so fast he had already cocked the pistol before he heard me, at that point in time I told him to start over, but he showed me that he had already cocked, in reading the responses here, it seems I should have let him put the hammer down(by shooting down range) and then sent him to the unloading table to unload, then back to loading table to reload so he could reshoot?

Assuming he didn't sweep anyone or commit some other crime, what entitles him to a reshoot? From the information posted, he fumbled his draw. That's a YP, not a MP, right?

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Assuming he didn't sweep anyone or commit some other crime, what entitles him to a reshoot? From the information posted, he fumbled his draw. That's a YP, not a MP, right?

RESTART, not a RESHOOT, First shot hadn't gone downrange had it?

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Assuming he didn't sweep anyone or commit some other crime, what entitles him to a reshoot? From the information posted, he fumbled his draw. That's a YP, not a MP, right?

 

Same as fumbling rounds if a SG is first gun...or trying to shoot a rifle with the safety engaged...or revolver hammers secured.

Timer Operator "made the call" in the cited situation.

 

Restarts shall be allowed for a competitor to achieve a “clean” start up to the point at which the first round goes down range.

Multiple restarts by the same shooter, that in the judgment of the R.O. are seen to be taking advantage, will not be entertained as they are not in the spirit of the game.

SHB p.21
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Glad to hear that...thanks for the clarification! ;)

 

There are a number of options available in that situation.

Examples:

1) Allow the shooter to safely DE-COCK in order to RESTART.

2) Have the shooter FIRE the round safely downrange off the clock...

then either:

2a) replace the fired round, reindex and RESTART.

OR

2b) direct the shooter to either the LT or the ULT to prepare for a RESTART

 

Thanks PW, I am still learning, and your help is most appreciated......I will handle this(if it comes up again) a lot different and better next time....THANKS

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Thanks Carolina Cowboy...the post kinda confused me. Appreciate the clarification....and YES, I am learning alot on this thread too.

 

GG

GG

 

Hi GG, I hope to meet you sometime as soon as I can get up to Rockford and shoot, and congrats on your RW win, way to go

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