PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 As it refers to the following rules re: DE-COCKING: 7. De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or location once a round has gone down range. NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision of a stage officer/Timer Operator.The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage Disqualification. SHB p.23 / RO1 p.16 "Under the direct supervision" requires the TOs acknowledgement in an instructive or affirmative manner. In other words there must be a positive indication to the shooter that the TO is giving his approval for the shooters action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Thanks PWB and the rest of the rules committee. Grizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Thats a very clear and understandable clarification PWB. Thanks for posting this info. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Thank you very much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Easy to understand! I like it! Stan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Clear as day... GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Thanks PWB for running that up the flag pole. Like it. Blastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Angus McPherson Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger... It still reads like it is OK to decock WITHOUT "direct supervision" as long as the gun is being pointed down range and the trigger is pulled. Is that correct? If it means decocking by firing or attempting to fire the gun it should say that. Angus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost, SASS #50125 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 PaleWolf, this happened. Shooter cocked revolver at wrong position. Shooter then rotated cylinder backward and let hammer down on empty cylinder, then moved. Shooter was under direct supervision of the T/O as shooter showed T/O hammer down on empty chamber.Penalty was called, but over ruled by T/O. No call. No Call? Ghost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger... It still reads like it is OK to decock WITHOUT "direct supervision" as long as the gun is being pointed down range and the trigger is pulled. Is that correct? If it means decocking by firing or attempting to fire the gun it should say that. Angus Good gravy!!! Yes you can fire the gun, w/o intensionally (sp) impeeding the hammer fall with foreign object (thumb/finger for example) on hammer, which in the process de-cocks the firing mechanism (hammer being part of it) and makes the firearm safe (hammer down on empty case).......without "direct" supervision. You do it every time you discharge (fire, shoot, whatever) a firearm. PWB and the Rules Committe has spoken, let it rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 26, 2011 Author Share Posted October 26, 2011 PaleWolf, this happened. Shooter cocked revolver at wrong position. Shooter then rotated cylinder backward and let hammer down on empty cylinder, then moved. Shooter was under direct supervision of the T/O as shooter showed T/O hammer down on empty chamber.Penalty was called, but over ruled by T/O. No call. No Call? Ghost In the middle of the stage or before a round had gone downrange?? (ref #'s 8 & 9 following #7 in the same section of the SHB & RO1) IF a round had been fired already, there is NO OPTION to DE-COCK a revolver. The round MUST be fired (= P for firing from the wrong position) IF no rounds have gone downrange, that would have been an acceptable method of making the revolver safe for a RESTART. That would be a NO CALL situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 26, 2011 Author Share Posted October 26, 2011 NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger... It still reads like it is OK to decock WITHOUT "direct supervision" as long as the gun is being pointed down range and the trigger is pulled. Is that correct? If it means decocking by firing or attempting to fire the gun it should say that. Angus as already noted...that is an unqualified statement... i.e. it does NOT say "...while easing the hammer down..." or impeding the hammer fall in any manner... it simply states: "POINTING IT DOWNRANGE an PULLING THE TRIGGER". If there is an unfired round under the hammer at that point, it will likely FIRE. If there is an empty chamber under the hammer, it will DRY FIRE. (see definition in the "Glossary of Terms" - RO1 p.30) That is NOT the same as DE-COCKING in the context of letting the hammer down WITHOUT firing/dry firing the firearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Nice Job PW... you have the patience of a saint.. Yeah.. I know yer not.. but... But thanks for your patience.. Rance Thinkin' maybe your a saint on the ol' SASS wire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Scatterbrain Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 SHB p.23 / RO1 p.16 "Under the direct supervision" requires the TOs acknowledgement in an instructive or affirmative manner. In other words there must be a positive indication to the shooter that the TO is giving his approval for the shooters action. What exactly constitutes "giving his approval"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 What exactly constitutes "giving his approval"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TN Mongo, SASS #61450 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Thanks Pale Wolf. This new definition of "under the supervision of the TO" would have helped solve this debate when it occured last week at our shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowdy Yates, SASS #141 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 PaleWolf, this happened. Shooter cocked revolver at wrong position. Shooter then rotated cylinder backward and let hammer down on empty cylinder, then moved. Shooter was under direct supervision of the T/O as shooter showed T/O hammer down on empty chamber.Penalty was called, but over ruled by T/O. No call. No Call? Ghost What kind of revolver was that? I can't think of any single action that would allow the cylinder to rotate backward while the hammer was being lowered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowdy Yates, SASS #141 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 What exactly constitutes "giving his approval"? I'd suggest it might be whatever positive indication the TO might choose to give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Too Tall, SASS #36690 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Even though this ruling went against me, I want to thank PaleWolf for clarifying the rules as this pertained to me directly. I also want to especially thank all the people who went to bat for me and for all the cowboys who emailed me from across the nation and to those who called me to say they were behind me 100%. I can't thank you enough for your support for a game I love to play. ...Too Tall.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Too Tall, rest easy my good friend. From some of the info I picked up on during this topic, I think EVERYONE was curious as to the correct call and wanted to ensure the right call was made. I don't think anyone is eager to ever give these calls and always wants to do the right thing. Your PROUD team member, ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Palewolf,,,,yu to any hair left on yur hed ur iz et awl en yur hans????????????? all I can say is goodness! cc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost, SASS #50125 Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 What kind of revolver was that? I can't think of any single action that would allow the cylinder to rotate backward while the hammer was being lowered. Rowdy, don't remember the kind of revolver, but it was shown to the three counters. The cylinder could be rotated backward while de-cocking. It was the 1st pistol after the rifle. Ghost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 Rowdy, don't remember the kind of revolver, but it was shown to the three counters. The cylinder could be rotated backward while de-cocking. It was the 1st pistol after the rifle. In that case, the shooter did NOT have the option to de-cock and reindex the revolver in order to move to the proper firing position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titus A. Gnatsass, SASS #71705 Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 As many have already said...THANK YOU for your patience, diligence and all your efforts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Thanks PWB.!! There should not be any doubt at this point what the rule is. Even though it seems that we do have those who do not know what the meaning of "is" is, it's clear to most, exactly what the meaning is. Again, Thank You for clearing this up. RBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Angus McPherson Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 In the middle of the stage or before a round had gone downrange?? (ref #'s 8 & 9 following #7 in the same section of the SHB & RO1) IF a round had been fired already, there is NO OPTION to DE-COCK a revolver. The round MUST be fired (= P for firing from the wrong position) IF no rounds have gone downrange, that would have been an acceptable method of making the revolver safe for a RESTART. That would be a NO CALL situation. Sorry, but you already gave the ok for a shooter to decock rather than fire the last loaded round "under the direct supervision of the TO" so there IS at least one option to decock after a round has been fired. edit: Just noticed you said "decock a revolver" [on loaded chamber]. But you could decock an empty revolver(?) or a loaded rifle or shotgun? (As in the example given) Not sure I understand why the difference. Further, as I already mentioned "firing" a gun is not what a person would normally call "decocking" and the rule is talking specifically about "decocking" the gun. I suggest the rule still needs to be re-written. Either just eliminate the "by pointing the firearm down range and pulling the trigger" entirely or change it to "...by pulling the trigger to fire the gun..." If you are talking about "decocking" a gun it would normally be understood that the hammer is lowered safely when the trigger is pulled. Unless there is a decocking lever of some kind on the firearm that's the only way I know how to "decock" the gun. Otherwise it's "firing" or "dryfiring". Sorry, I still say it's a poorly written rule. I didn't say it was a bad rule, just poorly written. Angus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pleasant , SASS #25245 L Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Thanks PBW for clarification made by you and the others on the committee. Pleasant --------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 Sorry, but you already gave the ok for a shooter to decock rather than fire the last loaded round "under the direct supervision of the TO" so there IS at least one option to decock after a round has been fired. ... I was addressing the SPECIFIC circumstance mentioned by Ghost in post #9 (and clarified in post #23). Please refer to the FIRST line of rule #7 (as well as the applicable sections of rule #'s 8 & 9) 7. De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or location once a round has gone down range.... 8. Once a revolver is cocked, the round under the hammer must be expended in order for it to be returned to a safe condition. ... 9. If a firearm is shot out of sequence or from the wrong position or location, the shooter will be awarded a single procedural penalty. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 PaleWolf - I think part of your tongue fell off when you hit your head on the wall CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 To quote a former commander in chief, "It depends on your definition of "Is". Pale Wolf has spoken. The question has been answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassalong Hopidy Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 PWB As someone always trying to understand and properly apply the rules, let me add my thanks for the many hours you and the Rules Committee spend working through such questions and giving us clarifications, especially when grounded in the language of the rule in question. Cassalong Hopidy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Well said Rowdy.. think that will put it to rest Rance Oops.. Rowdy's post is gone.. but it was well said anyhow.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 I'd suggest it might be whatever positive indication the TO might choose to give. Hi Rowdy, So, if the shooter misunderstood and thought he/she was given a nod and the TO says, "I didn't give my approval," Benefit of the Doubt will go to the shooter, right? Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 Hi Rowdy, So, if the shooter misunderstood and thought he/she was given a nod and the TO says, "I didn't give my approval," Benefit of the Doubt will go to the shooter, right? ... It would be the T/O's call to make. Shooter SHOULD verify the T/O's acknowledgement. From that point on it would go through the "Appeals, Challenges and Protests" process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolina Cowboy Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 It would be the T/O's call to make. Shooter SHOULD verify the T/O's acknowledgement. From that point on it would go through the "Appeals, Challenges and Protests" process. another point, this weekend I had a super fast shooter get his pistol(first gun ) caught in hammer strap when he drew first pistol(no shots down range yet), I stopped him but he had it cocked, I was TO, so took pistol and decocked, checked to make sure empty chamber was under hammer and returned his pistol to him, he then started over but either I AS TO DID NOT GET EMPTY CHAMBER UNDER HAMMER, or he did not fully cock hammer on one clyinder( I gave him the choice of reshooting because it could have been my fault, but he told me I had already gave him a reshoot, and he was not sure it was my fault, so he would take the score as was) if you are TO and do uncock a pistol . MAKE SURE THE HAMMER IS DOWN ON A EMPTY CHAMBER BEFORE YOU HAND PISTOL BACK TO SHOOTER.....I know some TO's will send shooter to unloading table, but in this case I just restarted him.....I think I did everything right, just wish I had checked empty chamber under the hammer closer, will next time if it ever happens again, was a first for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.