Army to revert to older grooming standards

[Doc Windshadow]

I though this would interest some of you I know most of my friends in the service or with kids in the service did not like the neck and finger tattoos

 

The Army’s Sergeant Major, Raymond Chandler, is sick and tired of military bases just teeming with thugs and hoodrats. So along with several other Army leaders, he’s looking to institute a major overhaul of the branch’s grooming standards, including rules for attire, hair, accessories and body modification.

 

“I believe we can better visualize to the American people and the Army what it means to be an American soldier than we’re doing now,” Chandler, the senior enlisted adviser to the Army chief of staff and the designated spokesman for enlisted soldiers, told Army Times. “Through personal grooming standards and standards of appearance … the uniforms and how we choose to wear them. I think we can do better.”

 

Soldiers typically don’t have much sartorial leeway. But after decades of strict restrictions, the Army in 2006 loosened up. They permitted neck and hand tattoos — just in time for soldiers to score some of those ubiquitous finger letterings that’ve been all the rage lately. Women can style their hair with braids and cornrows, are allowed discreet makeup and can even opt — if combat sometimes interferes with all that “putting their faces on” business — for permanent, tattooed eye and lip-liner. And men’s hair, once restricted to a buzz-cut, can now grow wild — provided it doesn’t graze the collar and “conforms to the shape of the [soldier's head].”

 

Now, Chandler wants to tighten things up — revisiting all kinds of fashion, beauty, and body-mod trends. He’s drawing up a list of grooming recommendations for the Army’s secretary general. Possible items on that list: limitations on French manicures, curbs on racy body ink and justifications — or lack thereof — for creatively sculpting one’s facial hair.

 

 

Even Danger Room’s preferred means of self-ornamentation, the tattoo, is being threatened with tighter constraints. Many Army leaders want to tighten up tattoo regulations to again nix ink on bodily extremities — a change that would mean disciplining unlawfully tatted troops by asking them to seek “medical advice about removal or alteration.”

 

Above all, Chandler is looking to return to a more literal interpretation of the Army’s intricately-detailed grooming policies. On paper, soldiers are forbidden “extreme, eccentric and trendy” hairstyles, including dreadlocks (aptly described by the Army as “unkempt, twisted, matted, individual parts of hair”) and hair colored with exotic hues like “fire engine red, fluorescent and neon.” Goatees and beards are big no-nos, and even mustaches should be carefully measured so as to never “extend sideways beyond a vertical line drawn upward from the corners of the mouth.” And that Prince Albert [NSFW] you love showing off in the chow hall? Think again, champ: All body piercings, including those on “surfaces of the body not readily visible” are out of bounds.

 

Chandler’s put out a call for commentary on his Facebook page, and has already elicited nearly 500 comments — many of them supportive — from soldiers. And with hundreds of troops already heading home and 41,000 slated to return from Iraq by Christmas, they’re likely embracing the chance to — finally! — debate such frivolous fodder as the do’s and don’ts of fingernail polish and tramp stamps.

 

“It is about dang time. I am so sick of seeing guys with neck and hand tattoos,” wrote Capt. Richard Telesco at Fort Lewis. “Every time I take my soldiers out for PT it looks like a biker gang is running with me.”

 

Others, however, are asking the Army to embrace the aesthetic whims of the 21st-century’s free-thinking troops — clit piercings and all.

 

“People go through phases,” noted an unnamed commenter. “What’s the big deal?”

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

Sure would be nice if people would stop trying to use our military for social engineering experiments. Go back to the stricter standards...and stay there.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Forty Rod,

 

Do you also advocate the restoration of the role (or lack there ) of women in uniform?

 

After all that is also a piece of the social engineering experiments.

[Utah Bob #35998]

The tattoo issue has been discussed now for quite some time. Unfortunately, the prohibition on them would limit recruiting due to the amazing preponderance of such body art in society. It's jarring to us old geezers but time marches on. When I was in, we were prohibited from any tatoos that might identify us as Americans due to the sometimes shadowy nature of missions. That should still be a consideration for special ops types.

As far as the hair standards go...... keep it short, keep it neat, keep it military.

Just one geezer's opinion.

[Shakey Merlot]

I'm not trying to sound like a martinet, although many of you will probably believe I am, but discipline is in both the little things and the big things. The Marine Coprs had fairly strict grooming standards and Marines bitched about it all the time, but they understood - for the most part - that there were military and political reasons for a Marine to LOOK like a Marine. Grooming is a part of that. My son and daughter are both in the Air Force and I've heard them say more than once that they wished commanders were tighter on the grooming standards ( they are both enlisted).

I remeber an outstanding Marine being turned down for Embassy Duty because he had tattoos on his forearms, which were not allowed on Embassy Marines.

Times DO change but not always for the better.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Sure would be nice if people would stop trying to use our military for social engineering experiments. Go back to the stricter standards...and stay there.

 

.....my niece graduated West Point this year and feels the same way

 

GG ~

[Iron Pony]

Was told by older and wiser NCOs never to get ink art unless you wanted it to possibly end up as a souvineir on some rat bastards wall who go lucky enough to kill you or take it as a trophy while you were still alive.

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

Forty Rod,

 

Do you also advocate the restoration of the role (or lack there ) of women in uniform?

 

After all that is also a piece of the social engineering experiments.

 

In many ways, yes I do. I know a young man with a spotless record and many commendations who is leaving the Navy after 16 years because of women aboard his ship. Anything he does or doesn't do involving them is looked at from a gender position. If they aren't treated equally or if they get special treatment he takes flak. He ignored one young lady's advances and she accused him of harassment. He has been asked to explain almost every decision he's made that involves women, especially if discipline or assignments of unpleasant duties are involved, and has finally decided the stress and the inability to do the job assigned to him isn't worth it any longer. He is not going to re-enlist at the end of this hitch.

 

I worked with, for, and in a supervisory situation with women in both the Army and the Marine Corps. The vast majority are worthy of all my respect, but there are some who made life more difficult for everyone around them. Some males did, too, but if I documented a male soldier or Marine and disciplined them or recommended discipline, NO ONE second guessed my decision. They almost always did when a woman was involved.

 

I have no grief with racial or ethnic minorities in the military, but a lot with women and homosexuals, and with some religious groups.

 

Go ahead and call me a bigot if you want to, but be prepared to use something besides these comments to support your position. I can provide evidence to the contrary in every instance.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Forty Rod,

Please don't take me wrong. I agree with you. I am dead set against the use of the military as a playground for social engineering experiments and play sessions.

I see no reason for women in the miliary and I see no reason to tolerate homosexuality either.

Let alone the inherent danger in having muslims in a military that is involved in two contests with muslim dominated countries.

[Seldom Seen #16162]

Forty Rod

 

I think your friend is very short sighted by quiting his job with only four years to go to retirement with benefits. And in todays job market. And he thinks his problems with women will go away in the civilian world.

 

My only commment about your feelings about women in the military is they would not be needed if the Armed Forces could recuit enough qualified males. And I'll bite my tongue about what I consider your trash talk in deference to my daughter who is medically retired from the Army due to her service related disabilities.

[Old Scatterbrain]

The vast majority are worthy of all my respect, but there are some who made life more difficult for everyone around them.

Especially the other females, who are then viewed through that prism.

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

Forty Rod

 

I think your friend is very short sighted by quiting his job with only four years to go to retirement with benefits. And in todays job market. And he thinks his problems with women will go away in the civilian world.

 

My only commment about your feelings about women in the military is they would not be needed if the Armed Forces could recuit enough qualified males. And I'll bite my tongue about what I consider your trash talk in deference to my daughter who is medically retired from the Army due to her service related disabilities.

 

 

Especially the other females, who are then viewed through that prism.

 

The guy's a Corpsman who has job offers up the ying-yang already. I wouldn't recommend it if he were a mechanic, dishwasher, or a floor sweeper. In the civilian world I didn't find myself in line for Captain's mast or court martial if I refused to play the game...but I also had 43 paid jobs in my working career. I walked away from a lot of BS.

 

I don't see recruitment suffering much from anything except the fact that the government runs it like they do everything else...slip shod.

 

Go back and read my tirade again. I didn't bash all women, not even most...actually not even a large percentage, just enough to make life miserable sometimes.

 

 

I worked with a lady (and I use that term with reverence) Army Major in Vietnam. She was tough, efficient, understanding, everything that made an excellent officer and her gender never was a issue.

 

I worked with a lady ( ditto the above) Marine Major at Iwakuni. (Again ditto the above.)

 

I worked for a lady (ditto again) supervisor at McDonnell Douglas and another at Western Gear Corp. They were all the equal of, and in some cases superior to some men that I have worked for.

 

I have been pretty well satisfied with most women I have worked around in almost every capacity, but there are some who made life hell, generally at a time when it was not only inconvenient, but down right disastrous.

 

I actually like women under many (most!) circumstances better than I like men. There are some places I simply don't believe they belong

 

My thanks to your daughter for her service, and to all the others who did a good job. I didn't mean to besmirch them in any way, BUT I still stand by my comments as a generality.

[Old Scatterbrain]

I wasn't disagreeing with you: in a sense I was agreeing. I was lamenting the fact that a small number of females (or Guardsmen, or cops, or blacks, or...) make it much harder for the rest.

 

I actually like women under many (most!) circumstances better than I like men.

Right here. I have had very few close friends in my life, and they have all been females. I actually interact with males more here than in real life.

[Seldom Seen #16162]

Forty Rod,

 

Both of my kids, one still active, have told me that I would not believe the trouble women get into in the service so I do not disagree with your comments. Just your brush seems a little broad.

[S. Quentin Quale, Esq. SASS 9953]

Forty Rod

 

I think your friend is very short sighted by quiting his job with only four years to go to retirement with benefits. And in todays job market. And he thinks his problems with women will go away in the civilian world.

 

My only commment about your feelings about women in the military is they would not be needed if the Armed Forces could recuit enough qualified males. And I'll bite my tongue about what I consider your trash talk in deference to my daughter who is medically retired from the Army due to her service related disabilities.

 

In my time I commanded many women, worked with many more, and find that there are good ones and bad ones. The difference appears to be that when a female soldier/sailor/etc. goes astray they cause considerably more difficulty than similarly situated males. This has been my experence, at any rate. I'm not sure others have had similar experiences.

 

As to recruiting, an honest recuiter will tell you that they work under a byzantine system of "quotas." These quotas are set by race, gender, ethnicity, educational achievment, civilian skill set, etc. This is dictated by the "needs of the service" and by requirments of "diversity" set by the national command authority.

 

In the past I've worked with a couple of NRDACs (Naval Recruiting District Advisory Councils). I don't know if they still exist or not. They were committees of retired, Reserve, and former Navy folks who made referrals to recuiters. They also did Sea Power presentations at high schools and generally "showed the flag" where possible. In our meetings we were often told to concentrate our efforts on the the "recruit flavor of the month." That would be, of course, the quota they were having the biggest difficulty in filling.

 

More than one recruiter I know was damn near driven to drink when they got a good candidate ready to "sign up" and then were told that the candidate would either not "pass muster" or be put on a waiting list (as long as 18 months) 'cause their "quota" was full.

 

IMO a sharp appearance is a mark of professionalism. It may not be THE mark, but it's something that is part of the Public Face of the Armed Forces and, as such, is important.

 

SQQ

[Utah Bob #35998]

I just wish the Army would revert back to class A uniforms for travel instead of combat uniforms.

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

I just wish the Army would revert back to class A uniforms for travel instead of combat uniforms.

 

 

Amen Brother....

[sash]

I just wish the Army would revert back to class A uniforms for travel instead of combat uniforms.

 

I sort of agree, although it is impossible when coming home from deployment for leave or otherwise. Of course, the Army now has a wear out date on the green Class A uniform in favor of the new Blues, too. When traveling to and from schools, TCS, TDY, etc., I would much prefer at least a Class B level uniform. Even the Pentagon has gone back to B's as the duty uniform.

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

I sort of agree, although it is impossible when coming home from deployment for leave or otherwise. Of course, the Army now has a wear out date on the green Class A uniform in favor of the new Blues, too. When traveling to and from schools, TCS, TDY, etc., I would much prefer at least a Class B level uniform. Even the Pentagon has gone back to B's as the duty uniform.

 

 

The Corps travels the same as the Army but does so in Class A's or Charlies.... Why would it be more difficult for Soldiers than Marines?

[Utah Bob #35998]

The Corps travels the same as the Army but does so in Class A's or Charlies.... Why would it be more difficult for Soldiers than Marines?

Exactly. I traveled to and from Europe and Asia in class A's. I can see it on a mass deployment but for individual travel you should look your best.

Of course I remember when people used to dress up for air travel and casinos.

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

Exactly. I traveled to and from Europe and Asia in class A's. I can see it on a mass deployment but for individual travel you should look your best.

Of course I remember when people used to dress up for air travel and casinos.

 

 

When I returned from RVN, I debarked the plane at Chicago's O'Hare Airport in my Dress Blues..... On crutches......

[Major Pain]

I've served in Hawaii, Belgium, Germany and Italy, and a number of stateside posts, first as an enlisted man in the Navy and later as a commissioned officer in the Army. Certainly is was long enough ago that I confess to being "old school."

 

Maybe because I'm the age of many of you, but I've always thought it better when soldiers, and the other service members as well, traveled in their class A uniforms. I really don't mind going to and coming from a "combat zone" in BDU's. But when traveling otherwise, TAD, TDY etc military personnel represent the United States of America and should look their very best. I have always appreciated and been respectful of the Marines when it comes to this subject. There is no question they draw the eyes of people around them when they are traveling in their class A uniforms. For that reason, among others, I would not try to dissuade anyone going into the Marines because they still "get it" in many respects.

 

I've always subscribed to the notion that you "tend" to act like you dress. I believe when you are in your class A uniform you walk a little taller, with a little more spring in your step and a proud look on your face. I'd even extend this to off base clothing, particularly overseas. Somewhat off topic, but I can't tell you how many times, in the countries listed above and others when I saw military personnel in cut-off jeans, raggedy shorts, etc that were an embarrassment to their individual service and the USA. It's likely still going on today. It certainly is "stateside" today, but then slovenly dress seems to be the norm for many people today. Just check any "occupy" video in the news.

 

Just my thoughts.

Major Payne

[Anonymous SASS Shooter]

Forty, here's a thought for your friend thinking about getting out. No matter where he goes or what he does, any professional interaction he has with a female will be viewed through a gender bias. If he is in supervision, it will take more paperwork to discipline a female on his team than it will a male. I wish it were different, but it is not.

 

If that is his reason for leaving, then he will be sadly disappointed four years from now when he realizes a few things...

 

1) He's facing the same situation on the outside as far as gender bias.

2) He will not find the same camaraderie as on board ship. Not no where and not no how, not outside the military, does that culture exist.

3) If he'd stayed in, he'd be retiring with benefits instead of just being four years older with nothing but good memories of life as a sailor.

 

 

 

As for UB's observations about traveling in Class A's, I am in agreement for the same reasons. 'Nuff said.

[Old Scatterbrain]

The only time I ever am in uniform in public is when I am on duty and part of a group. I enlisted in 1988 and for most of my career, travelling in ANY uniform has been discouraged, and prohibited outright at various times. Servicemembers are discouraged from having bumper-stickers, license plates, or clothing with logos that may draw attention to their military service. Of course, many if not most ignore these precautions. I don't, and I've never been hassled by peaceniks, oppportunists or nutjobs. YMMV.

[Chief Rick]

The only time I ever am in uniform in public is when I am on duty and part of a group. I enlisted in 1988 and for most of my career, travelling in ANY uniform has been discouraged, and prohibited outright at various times. Servicemembers are discouraged from having bumper-stickers, license plates, or clothing with logos that may draw attention to their military service. Of course, many if not most ignore these precautions. I don't, and I've never been hassled by peaceniks, oppportunists or nutjobs. YMMV.

I came in a year after you.

 

The only time I've been prohibited from travelling in uniform is when travelling overseas.

 

I have flown as recently as Valentine's day 2010, from Norfolk, VA to Jackson, MS - through Atlanta, in full dress blues.

 

I also can attest to never having been hassled by anyone - unless you count the number of people that kept stopping me and thanking me for my service.

 

Why are people scared to stand up for what they believe in or admit that they are a part of a great organization?

 

Too much PC-crap in the US...

[Old Scatterbrain]

Too much PC-crap in the US...

What does "PC" have to do with it? It's basic risk management. Throwing around the "PC" label whenever someone disagrees with you is no more valid or constructive than throwing up the fascist/nazi/Hitler flag.

 

I also never fly, unless ordered to do so. I flew to basic training, and I flew to Iraq and back 3 times. Other than that I have never flown anywhere for any reason, especially since 9/11. Why? I don't like being treated like a perp. how's that for PC?

 

I've been out of the navy since September of 2000, so I have no idea what their current or recent policies, but before then we were routinely advised to take the same precautions I listed earlier. We also were advised to do things like vary our routine, take different routes to & from work, and a laundry list of other things to make yourself a less-easy target. I was an east-coast sailor; perhaps it was different elsewhere. I see that you were recently in NorVa, but were you a west-coaster before that?

 

Besides, it is nobody's business what I do for a living any more than who my friends are, or anything else about my life. I share that information when I wish for the reasons I wish.

[Utah Bob #35998]

I'm glad I'm not in the military today.

I don't know if I could handle the smiles and backslappin in the airports.

A bit different than in my day.

Thank goodness.

[Old Scatterbrain]

I'm glad I'm not in the military today.

I don't know if I could handle the smiles and backslappin in the airports.

A bit different than in my day.

Thank goodness.

It has been my experience that you should never let a Vietnam vet know you are a recent veteran. They seem determined to make you feel more welcome and appreciated than they were; they can be extroaordinarily persistent.

[Utah Bob #35998]

It has been my experience that you should never let a Vietnam vet know you are a recent veteran. They seem determined to make you feel more welcome and appreciated than they were; they can be extroaordinarily persistent.

 

Quite true.

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

It has been my experience that you should never let a Vietnam vet know you are a recent veteran. They seem determined to make you feel more welcome and appreciated than they were; they can be extroaordinarily persistent.

 

 

You get the welcome that we never had.

[Chief Rick]

What does "PC" have to do with it? It's basic risk management. Throwing around the "PC" label whenever someone disagrees with you is no more valid or constructive than throwing up the fascist/nazi/Hitler flag.

 

I also never fly, unless ordered to do so. I flew to basic training, and I flew to Iraq and back 3 times. Other than that I have never flown anywhere for any reason, especially since 9/11. Why? I don't like being treated like a perp. how's that for PC?

 

I've been out of the navy since September of 2000, so I have no idea what their current or recent policies, but before then we were routinely advised to take the same precautions I listed earlier. We also were advised to do things like vary our routine, take different routes to & from work, and a laundry list of other things to make yourself a less-easy target. I was an east-coast sailor; perhaps it was different elsewhere. I see that you were recently in NorVa, but were you a west-coaster before that?

 

Besides, it is nobody's business what I do for a living any more than who my friends are, or anything else about my life. I share that information when I wish for the reasons I wish.

Spent about six weeks in San Diego going to school - didn't lose anything while there - didn't see a need to go back.

 

Spent about eight weeks in/around San Francisco - didn't lose anything there either (except brain cells ).

 

All of my ships have been out of Norfolk. I was in Norfolk prior to the first Gulf War, when businesses and non-military did not want Sailors around.

 

If a person doesn't want to share personal info on a web forum, I have no problem with that.

 

And I am not going to intentionally put myself in a situation to invite trouble.

 

But I refuse to walk around in America like I'm living in a third world country because bad people might want to hurt me for being patriotic, in my country. I will wear my cowboy clothes as proudly as I wear my uniform, which is also how I wear my military pride t-shirts.

 

What is wrong with America today? Lack of pride.

People need to have pride in the United States, pride that they are Americans (not African Americans, Asian-Americans, or Irish-Americans = but AMERICANS).

People need to have pride in the military and the law enforcement/fire departments/EMS that serve them.

And people need to have pride in themselves.

 

I also used to teach the anti-terrorism training class for deploying Sailors & Marines. The biggest thing that still sticks out to me - the only way to stop a terrorist is to lock down an area, and then all a terrorist has to do is wait - they know you can't stay in that condition indefinitely.

[Old Scatterbrain]

But I refuse to walk around in America like I'm living in a third world country...

Not even sure what you're getting at here.

 

 

What is wrong with America today? Lack of pride.

People need to have pride in the United States, pride that they are Americans (not African Americans, Asian-Americans, or Irish-Americans = but AMERICANS).

People need to have pride in the military and the law enforcement/fire departments/EMS that serve them.

And people need to have pride in themselves.

You seem to be reading an awful lot into my words and actions. I can be proud of who I am, where I'm from and what I do, without having to announce it to every random soul that crosses my path. My life is my business, nobody else's. One of the bigger reasons I joined in the first place was to defend that concept. Never said anything about being hyphenated, either.

 

At least we seem to be in agreement about the PacFlt: no thank you

[Chief Rick]

Not even sure what you're getting at here.

 

 

 

You seem to be reading an awful lot into my words and actions. I can be proud of who I am, where I'm from and what I do, without having to announce it to every random soul that crosses my path. My life is my business, nobody else's. One of the bigger reasons I joined in the first place was to defend that concept. Never said anything about being hyphenated, either.

 

At least we seem to be in agreement about the PacFlt: no thank you

 

Nothing that I've written is directed towards you personally.

 

What I am getting at is that many of the precautions you listed; vary routine, take different routes to & from work, make yourself a less-easy target, are things we put out during anti-terrorist training for Sailors & Marines travelling abroad. When travelling to places you are pretty sure you are not welcome and could possibly be a target. Not necessarily at home. I am not saying that some or all of the those things are not good ideas. Depending on the job a person has, even stateside, several of the topics probably should be followed. But the average Joe who does these things is more likely to draw attention to themselves and create problems instead of avoid them.

 

And for the pride thing - just my general feeling on the state of affairs in this great country. How many American flags do people see in/on vehicles (be it stickers or window flags or the kind that hangs from the rear-view mirror)? How many Puerto Rico flags, Brazil flags, mexican flags do people see?

[Old Scatterbrain]

Nothing that I've written is directed towards you personally.

 

What I am getting at is that many of the precautions you listed; vary routine, take different routes to & from work, make yourself a less-easy target, are things we put out during anti-terrorist training for Sailors & Marines travelling abroad. When travelling to places you are pretty sure you are not welcome and could possibly be a target. Not necessarily at home. I am not saying that some or all of the those things are not good ideas. Depending on the job a person has, even stateside, several of the topics probably should be followed. But the average Joe who does these things is more likely to draw attention to themselves and create problems instead of avoid them.

 

And for the pride thing - just my general feeling on the state of affairs in this great country. How many American flags do people see in/on vehicles (be it stickers or window flags or the kind that hangs from the rear-view mirror)? How many Puerto Rico flags, Brazil flags, mexican flags do people see?

Word. I feel ya, dawg

[Shooting Bull]

All of my ships have been out of Norfolk. I was in Norfolk prior to the first Gulf War, when businesses and non-military did not want Sailors around.

 

 

 

Did you notice that attidude change after the war? I was stationed up at Langley AFB twice; once before and once after the war. Attitudes towards service memebers sure were better the second time around.