Instructions to Spotters/Counters

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

As Spotters/Counters are allowed to coach under the Rules, if a shooter instructs the Spotters/Counters NOT to coach and the Spotters/Counters still Yell their opinion, observations, instructions to the Shooter during the course of fire - is that RO interference? or is the Shooter just stuck with having to deal with the distraction of the Yelling?

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

As Spotters/Counters are allowed to coach under the Rules, if a shooter instructs the Spotters/Counters NOT to coach and the Spotters/Counters still Yell their opinion, observations, instructions to the Shooter during the course of fire - is that RO interference? or is the Shooter just stuck with having to deal with the distraction of the Yelling?

In my opinion, if you a shooter asks to not be coached and is, other than safety coaching, that is bad coaching and can be grounds for a re-shoot.

 

Fillmore

[Blastmaster]

Never had that problem as an RO.

 

If shooter says no coaching, I will let them hang them selfs and just smile.

 

But ya know, no one in recent memory ( which is short ) has ever told me they want no coaching. More likely, they want coaching and advise from me... I guess I can read the shooter and just know when to open or close my mouth during the course of fire.

 

Blastmaster

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Never had that problem as an RO.

 

If shooter says no coaching, I will let them hang them selfs and just smile.

 

But ya know, no one in recent memory ( which is short ) has ever told me they want no coaching. More likely, they want coaching and advise from me... I guess I can read the shooter and just know when to open or close my mouth during the course of fire.

 

Blastmaster

 

 

Ya know, I'm trying to think if I have ever had a shooter tell me "No coaching".

 

I am usually the one walking from the loading table to the stage and telling the timer AND the spotters AND anyone else within earshot "Ok, make sure you yell Outside - Outside when I am going to the shotgun"

[twelve mile REB]

BAD coaching is NOT grounds for a reshoot sorry.

12

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

BAD coaching is NOT grounds for a reshoot sorry.

12

Since when?

 

I go for my rifle (the next gun) and the TO says, "Shotgun!". I stop, look a him with a "Huh?" look on my face. I don't get a re-shoot?

 

Fillmore

[DOCBRAZOS, SASS#18033L]

BAD coaching is NOT grounds for a reshoot sorry.

Page 5 RO1 under assist

6. Coaching. This is the most direct way to assist the shooter after the course of fire begins.

The Chief Range Officer should coach only when someone looks momentarily confused or

lost, if they attempt to put down a long-gun with the action closed, or address the wrong

target. However, it’s not your job to “shoot the stage” for the competitor, coaching him in

every action and some shooters don’t like to be coached at all. It is prudent to determine if

there is anyone on the posse who doesn’t want to be coached. Coaching is not considered

RO interference and, therefore, will never be grounds for a re-shoot.

[Shooting Bull]

Page 5 RO1 under assist

6. Coaching. This is the most direct way to assist the shooter after the course of fire begins.

The Chief Range Officer should coach only when someone looks momentarily confused or

lost, if they attempt to put down a long-gun with the action closed, or address the wrong

target. However, it’s not your job to “shoot the stage” for the competitor, coaching him in

every action and some shooters don’t like to be coached at all. It is prudent to determine if

there is anyone on the posse who doesn’t want to be coached. Coaching is not considered

RO interference and, therefore, will never be grounds for a re-shoot.

 

 

The question was about spotters.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

As Spotters/Counters are allowed to coach under the Rules, if a shooter instructs the Spotters/Counters NOT to coach and the Spotters/Counters still Yell their opinion, observations, instructions to the Shooter during the course of fire - is that RO interference? or is the Shooter just stuck with having to deal with the distraction of the Yelling?

First, spotters should stay out of coaching, unless the RO misses something like the shooter shooting four rounds from the pistol and starts to holster. If the RO misses it the spotters should holler "ONE MORE". For BP shooters it's nice to have the spotters holler "UP" when you miss a SG knockdown. Ohter than the obvious the spotters are there to assist the RO by counting misses, counting shots fired, and target engagment. If the shooter wants no coaching they should request it before shooting the stage. Giving correct instructions is not grounds for a re-shoot. However, if they are hollerin "RIFLE, RIFLE" when it should be the shotgun, then that is interference. Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

BAD coaching is NOT grounds for a reshoot sorry.

12

 

Sorry, that is just "cherry picking" words out of the RO I manual where the manual is very weak. Better to read ALL the RO I manual's discussion of coaching.

 

Check page 22, which explains this situation more fully.

 

At all SASS annual club, state, Regional, National, and

World Championship matches, no reshoots/restarts will be given after the first shot goes down

range as determined by the Chief Range Officer and the Match Director, except for:

• Prop or match equipment failure

• A Range Officer impeding the progress of the shooter

• Timer failure or unrecorded time

For example, if the Range Officer stops a shooter from completing a shooting sequence because

of a suspected squib load, and the gun turns out to be "clear," the Range Officer has impeded the

progress of the shooter, and a restart is in order. In this case, the shooter starts over with no

misses or penalties (except safeties).

Proper coaching or no coaching at all is not considered RO Interference and therefore will

never be grounds for a reshoot/restart.

(bolding added to highlight the parts applying to this discussion)

 

As almost all readers will understand, improper coaching IS an interference. As the example shows, if the TO or a spotter yells "Squib", stopping the shooter from finishing with that gun, and it is found that there was no squib, a reshoot is certainly in order. Thus, improper instruction from the RO/TO, directing the shooter to the wrong target, shooting position, or even to transition to the wrong gun, has to have the same impact - if the progress of the shooter was impeded, it's grounds for a reshoot.

 

When the RO/TO cannot give correct coaching, they should not give any coaching. It is ultimately the responsibility of the shooter to understand and execute the stage properly, after all.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

"Proper coaching or no coaching at all is not considered RO Interference and therefore will never be grounds for a reshoot." Key word is, of course, proper. Improper coaching is grounds for a reshoot as it is RO interference. However, improper coaching based on directions from posse members or bystanders is not grounds for a reshoot.

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Where do we draw the line,are the TO and spotters the only RO's that can interfer? I have been involved in a few incidents where someone yelled out incorrect instructions and impedded the shooter. It's not easy to stop under the stress of the timer and find out who said what while still giving the shooter a fair shake. I would like to see some more clarification to this. I know the last thing we need is more rules but it's becoming a big enough issue that we need something hard and fast. Shooter has to take responsibility eventually.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Since when?

 

I go for my rifle (the next gun) and the TO says, "Shotgun!". I stop, look a him with a "Huh?" look on my face. I don't get a re-shoot?

 

Fillmore

 

 

Don't stop. Keep going. Finish the stage best you can. Get a time recorded. And THEN sort it out.

And if a reshoot is in order. It will be given. If not. You just wasted a bunch of time. Because. What

if you did get it mixed up and the TO was right. Then there would be no reshoot and you just cost yourself

a lot of time.

Unless they say STOP. Just keep going and finish the stage. Then sort it out.

[Blastmaster]

Since when?

 

I go for my rifle (the next gun) and the TO says, "Shotgun!". I stop, look a him with a "Huh?" look on my face. I don't get a re-shoot?

 

Fillmore

Anvil Al gave good advice, finish up and then sort it out.

 

For what it is worth and using just what you said, I would offer a reshoot to you if I told you to use the wrong firearm next and that caused you to hesitate.

 

Blastmaster

[Flying W Ramrod]

However, if the RO tells the shooter to move and the shooter has a cocked revolver, the error of moving with said cocked revolver is the shooter not the RO. The shooter should be well versed in the Safety rules that you may NOT move with a cocked gun with a round under the hammer.

In this case, improper coaching is not grounds for a restart/reshoot.

[Noz]

I have had experience with an RO that insisted on naming each target on the stage as it was to be shot. ie: Shoot pistol 1 shoot pistol two etc.

I now will emphatically state to him I do not wish to be coached.

That said, my butt has been saved several times by good coaching by good ROs. I thank them for their help.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

However, if the RO tells the shooter to move and the shooter has a cocked revolver, the error of moving with said cocked revolver is the shooter not the RO. The shooter should be well versed in the Safety rules that you may NOT move with a cocked gun with a round under the hammer.

In this case, improper coaching is not grounds for a restart/reshoot.

 

I'm trying to teach myself to make my RO command to the shooter be: "Wrong Shooting Position!", rather than "Move!". This hopefully lets the shooter know that he may have some options - fire one round and take a P, or see if he can stretch one foot far enough to get to the next position, or jack out round under the hammer, etc.

 

Yes, it is longer. Perhaps it is more useful to the shooter.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Blastmaster]

I'm trying to teach myself to make my RO command to the shooter be: "Wrong Shooting Position!", rather than "Move!". This hopefully lets the shooter know that he may have some options - fire one round and take a P, or see if he can stretch one foot far enough to get to the next position, or jack out round under the hammer, etc.

 

Yes, it is longer. Perhaps it is more useful to the shooter.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

How about just saying "Window", "Door", "fence", "horse" or where ever they are suppose to be?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

How about just saying "Window", "Door", "fence", "horse" or where ever they are suppose to be?

 

Sounds good to me. Otherwise, rather than searching my brain in the next 20 milliseconds for the right position name, I can just say Wrong Position. It all is better instruction for the shooter than just Move.

 

Good luck, GJ

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

What do you do when, as a shooter, you cannot discern what is being Yelled?

 

One, two or even three Spotters are yelling at you - words are overlapping - it is gibberish.

 

Do you just continue with the premise you will sort it out later? Taking the Risk that they were not Yelling "Squib" or "Stop"?

 

If I cannot understand what is being Yelled, I Stop. I rather have a DNF that a gun blow up in my face.

 

I can usually pay attention to one voice, the TO. He/She is the one charged with observing the Shooter.

And the only one close enough to the Shooter to actually be clearly understood.

 

I want Spotters to Yell only one word "Stop" - otherwise stay quiet and count misses.

 

But the current Rules allow Spotters to Yell anything - calling it coaching. Regardless of the impact on the Shooter.

Or the Shooters request that they stay quiet.

 

This, in my experience, is becoming an ever increasing problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

What do you do when, as a shooter, you cannot discern what is being Yelled?

 

I want Spotters to Yell only one word "Stop" - otherwise stay quiet and count misses.

 

As a BP shooter, I want spotters to tell me about KD targets still up. You probably don't want it.

 

So, I think you need to state to the TO what your desires are. As I state to my entire posse at the start of the match that I want them to yell out "Still Up" or "Again".

 

It would be hard to put one rule in place, and then have all the spotters always carefully follow it. Think you should just remind the range officers what you want them to yell about or to be quiet.

 

As a spotter, I have saved a couple of blown-out barrels by yelling Squib or Cease Fire, when the RO was not fast enough.

 

Again, don't try to make a rule - try to educate your posse to help you the way you want to be helped.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Blastmaster]

What do you do when, as a shooter, you cannot discern what is being Yelled?

 

One, two or even three Spotters are yelling at you - words are overlapping - it is gibberish.

 

Do you just continue with the premise you will sort it out later? Taking the Risk that they were not Yelling "Squib" or "Stop"?

 

If I cannot understand what is being Yelled, I Stop. I rather have a DNF that a gun blow up in my face.

 

I can usually pay attention to one voice, the TO. He/She is the one charged with observing the Shooter.

And the only one close enough to the Shooter to actually be clearly understood.

 

I want Spotters to Yell only one word "Stop" - otherwise stay quiet and count misses.

 

But the current Rules allow Spotters to Yell anything - calling it coaching. Regardless of the impact on the Shooter.

Or the Shooters request that they stay quiet.

 

This, in my experience, is becoming an ever increasing problem.

 

As you are staging your firearms, kindly ask the posse and the RO to please be quiet (no instructions, advise, whatever) because of your lose of hearing. That you can only hear or concentrate on just one voice from one person and you wish that to be the RO. Bet the posse would honor your request.

 

 

Edit: If I was ROing, I would make sure your request was honored.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Part of the problem is with nomenclature. People tend to mix the terms RO and TO. If you read the rules carefully the portions relating to coaching are more directed toward the TO. It seems that whenever this issue is discussed at TG meetings the focus is on the TO to be the one giving the shooter coaching instructions. It is difficult sometimes for a shooter to hear who is yelling, but reshoots are generally not given unless it is the TO that incorrectly coached the shooter.

[Jack Houston # 35508]

Something like this cost me winning a Very Important Match last year!! Lever had closed against a prop, I had already shot the next guns (pistols) and was starting towards shotgun when EVERYBODY including the RO was hollerin' something! I wasn't sure what they were Hollerin' about and stopped.The RO got closer to me and said Lever Closed!! In the heat of the moment I didn't realize that it was too damn late to fix it and turned back to close it with the second pistol,(empty) in hand because they stopped me before I had holstered it. Now, I was about 6' in front of the line where the loading table was but someone said I swept the table! I don't think so but was SDQ'ed! I should have done what Al said and kept going but when EVERYBODY's hollering at you you have a tendency to think something's really Wrong or Dangerous! Next time I'll just keep going!!!!

[Ace_of_Hearts]

I recently had a shooter stop shooting because he claimed, as a spotter, I entered into his peripheral vision, thereby distracting him.

The TO gave him a reshoot. I just handed over my spotting stick to someone else.

[Cowboy Junky]

IMHO there are so many variables and every shooter, RO and spotters are different. What you might do that saves one guys butt my cause another to crash and burn. I usually know the shooter and spotters and that helps but if you go to a big match and have a lot of folks you never shot with it’s a crap shoot.

 

I was at a big match once and a real fast / focused shooter left the lever closed….by the time I saw it he had the SG in hand and was way down range (I was the spotter). Nobody else saw it and IMO it was probably better to stay quiet but since the RO was near and knew the shooter well I kinda’ pointed it out to him hoping he would know weather to turn him back or not……well let’s just say I caught hell for that so in the .5 seconds I had to make a decision and tried my best it still didn’t make everyone happy.

 

My point is time is going by fast everyone’s different and making the right choice every time for every shooter will never happen no matter how hard you try. Just remember 99% of the folks are trying their best to help you……if you don’t like it….try to not make any mistakes then you won’t have to worry. But if you do make a mistake a people are trying their best to help you try not to bite the hand that feeds you.

[Jacknife]

 

 

I was at a big match once and a real fast / focused shooter left the lever closed….by the time I saw it he had the SG in hand and was way down range (I was the spotter). Nobody else saw it and IMO it was probably better to stay quiet but since the RO was near and knew the shooter well I kinda’ pointed it out to him hoping he would know weather to turn him back or not……well let’s just say I caught hell for that so in the .5 seconds I had to make a decision and tried my best it still didn’t make everyone happy.

 

 

 

Shoooter and timer operator were buddies.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Junky, In hindsight, it is much easier to know what to do. Sitting here calmly in my seat, I think the TO could weigh the difference between the shooter running back to open it before firing the SG and the 10-second MSV. However, it's sometimes very hard to make the best call in all situations, especially with a super-fast shooter.

 

Ace, I can see that happening. At my first match, I remember the TO hovering. He was wearing a red shirt. It made me even more nervous. I think brass pickers should also use caution and stay back. The only matches where I will start picking brass before the shooter is done are monthly WBAS matches. Even there, I attempt to stay back and out of sight unless the shooter has moved a good distance away. We have very wide berms at our WBAS matches and shoot 20-30 pistol on a stage. As it is, these matches last 1-1 1/2 hours longer than our CAS matches. So, I try to get a head start. I would use even more caution about this at an annual match.

 

Jack, That stinks. You already earned the penalty, as you shot the next gun. Yep, you should have just kept going.

 

C0ckr0ach, your question about not knowing what is being said due to all of the voices reminds me of a big match my first year shooting. One person (woman with a very loud, high-pitched voice) was arguing loudly about a call with the rest of the posse. When the shooter finished the stage, he asked for a reshoot due to the destraction. I equate this with the situation of multiple indistinguishable calls. VERY DISTRACTING. That shooter got a reshoot and I think that is "the right thing to do" in your case too.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo