Charlie Whiskers Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Good grief....guess I not only stirred up a hornet's nest but let the whole dam batch out.It was me in a different post that had said we mixed it in with our shoot this month.We have a few people that like to shoot WB and several that are semi curious about it.I'm not that into it,but if others are then why not do it on occassion.Our club is 99.999999% CAS shooters.We did say it was OK to use any semi if they didn't have a 1911 as long as they used lead bullets and any pump if they didn't have a 97.This was for this month ONLY.IT was a TRIAL shoot to see how it'd go over and if more people would be interested into getting into WB.NO more...NO less.We may end up doing it at more shoots...who knows.If we get asked by MEMBERS we may do it again.But I have an idea if that happens,then SASS approved WB equipment will be necessary and if enough show interest then there will be WB only stages and senerios.Like I also said in the other post;the flow of the shoot wasn't interupted in the least other than more brass to pick up.You couldn't tell what was being shot unless you were watching every shooter.It was just another catagory added to a posse list.The winners of each class gets a certficate.NOT a new Buick.It's a GAME,so why not do different things occassionly to add some interest to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted October 25, 2011 Author Share Posted October 25, 2011 I don't know, Creeker. I don't think I would draw that line in the sand at the same place in every case. There are too many variables, and they are all sandwiched in between "we have rules" and "let's get people shooting." I can't make it as black and white as you would like. Newt and believe it or not... I agree. And sandwiched between "We have rules" and "Let's get people shooting" is perhaps the best way I have ever heard it phrased. But to continue the metaphor, how much sandwich filling is too much? Obviously my examples above seem extreme, but everyone of them HAVE been used at various cowboy action shoots. And maybe I "stress" over something that doesn't affect me. Maybe It is just a freaking game. But it's not Calvinball - it seems the rulebook should mean something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crooked jake,4371 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Because that's the line I've drawn in the sand. P.S. Trust me, mine stinks too. Just ask Sour Kraut. \ EEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawd Awful Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 It seams to me alot of people are seeing Wild Bunch as 1 thing and 1 thing only. Has anyone thought that it might be 2 different things? 1) Its own separate sport that needs its own matches separate from any SASS matches ans Also 2)A separate category at your monthly SASS match I don't really have any clubs within 100 miles that shoot WBAS matches. I understand that the local clubs allowing me to shoot the CATEGORY are not holding a true WBAS Match, however it allows me the option to occasionaly enjoy a change from my normal. Perhaps instead of "Drawing a line in the sand" maybe it would help to look at the 2 situations as just that, 2 different circumstances. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtwater Doc 17941 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I believe that WB should be another CAS category open to all and fully integrated into the matches. A typical posse at any SASS match is already "mixed"; e.g. various classes and styles of shooter. The firearms are mixed as well within the confines of the rules. The era of the Cowboy Shooter as we know it is going to end..face it. The average age of CAS is mid-late 50s, many of our good colleagues are in their 70s and older. While there are younger shooters entering the sport they are fewer in number and dress and approach the sport differently. They didn't watch Hoppy or Roy or Gene as most of us have; their perceptions are different. I have 3 sons who participated with me in their teens, now they're 25-30 (oh I feel so old) and don't have the time or interest. The WB offers a way to open the sport to others. We need to learn to open it up and understand 1911s, Model 12s and so on. That's my opinion and I could be..... DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 ...And maybe I "stress" over something that doesn't affect me. Maybe It is just a freaking game. ... Ah Grasshopper, I think you may be on to something. Here. Take two pictures and call me in the morning. Anti-Stress pics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Branch Louie Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I've only been in this game coming up on two years, so I can't say about "back in the day". It was hard to come up with enough equipment to play this game. Someone posted on here about $2000.00 to start, it was more like $4000.00. I didn't start until I had all my guns, many folks offered to loan me stuff. But I stubbornly wanted my own stuff. I knew the requirements to play, never once asked if I could do something different, I came to ya'll, you didn't come to me. I didn't quite have all the cowboy clothes I needed, but little by little, I got outfitted. Nobody said a word about it. I signed up to play cowboy in SASS, not western 3 gun or wild bunch. I don't see why it would be a problem to mix in some wild bunch shooters at a local match, probably need to write separate stages, and I wouldn't care if Driftwood shot his DA Russians, but all this should be a LOCAL club decision to me. Maybe that makes the line in the sand a little blurry, but if you're gonna shoot cowboy action and expect to be counted in match awards or compete, you need to shoot cowboy action with legal equipment IMHO. I don't even think '97's should be allowed, but that's my opinion, and since they are legal it's a moot point. Anyway, to me cowboy action is what it is, might need to discuss things and tweak from time to time, but cowboy dress and period correct firearms make it right to me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I vote with my feet. I don't shoot at matches that allow WB as a category. I have made trips only to discover that WB is included. I shoot and leave and will not return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stump Water Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Why is it that the simple mention of "Wild Bunch" in a post always turns into a freakin' Wild Bunch debate. This was NOT a Wild Bunch vs. CAS question. Anyway... If it is good enough to do at a monthly, isn't it appropriate to do at an annual? And the converse is true as well - if you wouldn't do it at an annual - why would you allow it at a monthly? That's the crux of it right there. No different than a shooter getting a penalty and letting it slide because, "It's just a monthly match." As far as Driftwoods DA 44 and the gentleman shooting the Krag? They're pre-1900 guns. As long as they adhered to the lead bullet/velocity requirements, didn't interfere with the flow of the match and paid the entry fee just like everyone else, I'd let 'em shoot 'em... all the way up to EoT. But they wouldn't be eligible for placement in any category. That's my "line in the sand". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 View PostCreeker, SASS #43022, on 24 October 2011 - 03:39 PM, said:If it is good enough to do at a monthly, isn't it appropriate to do at an annual? And the converse is true as well - if you wouldn't do it at an annual - why would you allow it at a monthly? Several reasons, a monthly typically costs MUCH less than an annual. And most times is attended by a core group of locals. With that group it is much easier to gauge the acceptance of WB or any other out of the norm thing. An annual the entry cost is much more, and folks often travel in and stay in a motel or camp and the overall cost of attendance is much higher. Plus you get folks coming from farther away, who are expecting a Cowboy action match, throw in shooters shooting WB into the cowboy match and you'll likely have some annoyed guests. I like the way Pawnee Station does it, they shoot Cowboy matches on the 3rd Saturday of each month, when there is a 5th Saturday, they hold a match that allows WB, adult .22, and other non standard categories. Then at the annual they have a separate WB match on side match day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 As far as Driftwoods DA 44 and the gentleman shooting the Krag? They're pre-1900 guns. As long as they adhered to the lead bullet/velocity requirements, didn't interfere with the flow of the match and paid the entry fee just like everyone else, I'd let 'em shoot 'em... all the way up to EoT. But they wouldn't be eligible for placement in any category. That's my "line in the sand". Works for me. I only shoot Black Powder in my DA44. I don't hold up the posse matter of fact I spend less time at the unloading table than most because they are Top Breaks. And I would not dream of showing up with my DA44 at any match other than one which I had received express permission to do so. Wouldn't dream of showing up unannounced with it and expect to be allowed to shoot. Would not consider bringing it to a State match, a regional, or anyplace else except where I am well known. Which brings me around to Grizzly Dave's comment. I agree with him. Lots of local matches are small affairs where most everybody is friends. That's the type of match where I will consider doing something a little bit out of the ordinary. Why should we bend the rules at a local match when we wouldn't at a State or Regional? Because we can. Pure and simple. The matches I like to attend there are no prizes, sometimes a couple of ribbons if they have them. I seldom stick around to hear the scores anyway. If there was ever the slightest bit of a complaint that I should not win a ribbon (which I seldom do anyway) because I was shooting a non-approved gun I would give it up in a heartbeat. I just love dressing up as a cowboy, saying Howdy all day, strapping on some sixguns (SA or DA) and blasting away with Black Powder. No there are no NCOWS matches anywhere near here, so I will continue to shoot my DA44 every once in a while when I am allowed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indian Jack. Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Zoot Shooters looks like a lot of fun too...I got all the guns for that too. Just wish it would catch on and they had Zoot Shooters in Texas... maybe they dont argue as much either. remeber ...it is all in fun....IJAFG is a great badge...I want one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Interesting question, and one that is sure to raise some heated discussion, particularly the part on shooters with some disability. Perhaps we need our own version of the "Special Olympics," a disabled class, where folks who are not capable of shooting in the regular classes can compete without making broad changes to the rules of the rest of the sport. It is tough to accommodate then needs of everyone under a single set of rules, and frankly, I have heard some claims of disability that seemed allot more like inconvenience than true disability. But hey, who is to say, how can you tell? If we simply said, "there is a disabled class and you are welcome to shoot in it if you are disabled" then I think it would take care of itself. But heck, we already have too many classes than we need in my opinion. Having said that, I think there is more justification for a disabled class than for some of the other ones we already have. I would be very happy to shoot WB matches with my CAS gear. They look like allot more fun than modern SASS matches, but I have no desire to shoot the 1911 (well to be more honest, if I wanted to shoot modern guns I would shoot modern 3 gun so I could use my ARs and Saiga 12 as well). I also don't have a problem letting folks use fewer guns when they are starting out, but that is really a club question rather than a SASS question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beauregard Hooligan Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I've been in CAS since the early '90s, went SASS life in '96, and cannot believe the way things have changed. Back then, most folks had shot IPSC, and were trying to get away from the semi-auto pistols, the cut throat "win at any cost" mentality, and wanted a shooting sport that embraced the Cowboy Way of having fun and being safe. Now it's speed, modified firearms, and trying to get any firearm that ever existed into the game. The rules were were simple, and if someone came out to shoot with only one revolver, a loaner and leather would be offered; it was the same with rifles and shotguns. Generosity was part of the Spirit of the Game, which seems to be a passing fad. Yes this sport is expensive, and acquiring two revolvers, lever action rifle and shotgun is hard to afford these days. But, it was expensive to buy the guns then. That was what the rules required, and people met it one way or another, instead of trying to change the rules. I started with what I had, a .357 mag Ruger Blackhawk with a 4 5/8 bbl, a .44 mag Super Blackhawk with a 7 1/2 bbl, a side by side shotgun that I borrowed from a friend and bought a Marlin 1894. Shooting those two very different handguns was hard to do, and I bought more suitable firearms as time passed. But then, if I'd brought a 1911 .45 ACP or a Krag rifle to the shoot, and I would have had to leave them in my truck. If people want the Wild Bunch weapons and rules, either do it as a side match, or found a new shooting sport with that as the basis. I don't want to shoot alongside a shooter using a 1911. If I wanted that, I'd go back to IPSC.or to IPDA. The current state of CAS makes me sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I believe that WB should be another CAS category open to all and fully integrated into the matches. A typical posse at any SASS match is already "mixed"; e.g. various classes and styles of shooter. The firearms are mixed as well within the confines of the rules. The era of the Cowboy Shooter as we know it is going to end..face it. The average age of CAS is mid-late 50s, many of our good colleagues are in their 70s and older. While there are younger shooters entering the sport they are fewer in number and dress and approach the sport differently. They didn't watch Hoppy or Roy or Gene as most of us have; their perceptions are different. I have 3 sons who participated with me in their teens, now they're 25-30 (oh I feel so old) and don't have the time or interest. The WB offers a way to open the sport to others. We need to learn to open it up and understand 1911s, Model 12s and so on. That's my opinion and I could be..... DD Let me know where you are shooting so I won't be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Branch Louie Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Hopefully a lot of us 50-60 year olds are gonna be around a while yet. Cowboy action shooting ain't dead yet..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry McKenna #700L Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I just love dressing up as a cowboy, saying Howdy all day, strapping on some sixguns (SA or DA) and blasting away with Black Powder. What its all about for many of us. Essence of CAS, right there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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