Agenda Item #3

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Yes. We have been offering the class at my home club for about 4 years. It's not wildly popular,but fun. Thats the point right. I shoot it often. Will shoot gunfighter,duelist and two handed during the course of the match. For me it's more of a fun factor thing than using one style over the other for competative reasons.

[Snakebite]

If it ends up that age based shooters are required to stay inside their category age limits, the "Open" category would provide the place for those shooters who previously moved down in the current age system. They claim that they don't want to shoot against their age group.... well, the "Open" category would provide just such a place. Of course if it did not garnish enough shooters, then it would not be honored.

 

Snakebite

[Jacknife]

FORCING a person to enter an age based catagory is not a good thing, at least not to me.

[Snakebite]

FORCING a person to enter an age based catagory is not a good thing, at least not to me.

 

I sure do agree with that... has someone proposed to "Force" a shooter to shoot in an age based category? I havn't heard that one yet.

 

Snakebite

[Doc Shapiro]

Does anyone have a good argument in favor of an Open category (as it is laid out in the proposal)?

[Fingers McGee]

Does anyone have a good argument in favor of an Open category (as it is laid out in the proposal)?

 

Not that I've read yet.

 

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

[Snakebite]

Well I don't know if it is a good argument, but for years I've listened to some folk complain that they don't have a category where they can do this or that or this and that. Seems to me that the Open category would satisfy that. Of course if someone was shopping just for a win.... they might not want to enter into an Open category.. no doubt that it could be a tough run and I can see that many shooters would not want to take a chance in an all out competition such as the Open category would provide. Might be kinda like those matches on TV where they get into a cage and see who comes out!

 

 

Snakebite

[Bramble Mountain Buzzard]

And I thought that we already had Cowboy and Cowgirl for anyone...

[Snakebite]

never mind

[crooked jake,4371]

Does anyone have a good argument in favor of an Open category (as it is laid out in the proposal)?

 

 

Doc ,

 

Not messin with ya or tyrin to be smart@$$

 

How should it be written to get this in .

 

Would really like to see this go .......so you could shoot any style on a given stage and not have to dress funny to do it

 

If they do limit who can shoot in aged base then this would be a catch all for a lot of people that dont want to play that way ......I think anyway

 

I dont believe money will enter into the game with this ......but if ya see somethin I dont then put it up here ,not callin ya out ....just maybe I am not seeing an issue .

 

I did see and know exactly what would happen when they did the Cowboy ,Wrangler deal.......so bein serious, tell me what problems ya see .

 

If anyone else does please enlighten also

 

Thanks ,Jake

[crooked jake,4371]

never mind

 

Would truely like to know what ya have to say Snakebite .........I would like to see this happen .....if it needs worded different then maybe that could happen before it goes to a vote .

 

Ya been around a while and seen a lot

 

So have I ..........would be pretty cool to be able to look at a stage and think it through and be able to run how ya wanted to if ya had the ability ............yeah kinda like the old days

 

What others have said about an all around would be kinda cool ..........different skills mixed together

 

Cowboy is not an open category where this could be done .....its just an age based category that is tryin to be limited as i see it ..........am I trackin right on that.

 

Some have said we dont need anymore categories ..........yeah well, we havent for a while but funny how they keep showin up.

 

This would give match directors a place for those one off .......I need to feel special people......to be given a direction of where to shoot ..........kinda like .....well if ya don't see it on the list .....ya can step to the plate and shoot open

 

Like to hear why it shouldn't be allowed............ and for a reason other than ............WE ALREADY HAVE TOO MANY .........wasn't there a new one last year ?

 

I dont know but would like to hear yer thoughts..........pm is cool

 

Thanks ,Jake

[crooked jake,4371]

Yes. We have been offering the class at my home club for about 4 years. It's not wildly popular,but fun. Thats the point right. I shoot it often. Will shoot gunfighter,duelist and two handed during the course of the match. For me it's more of a fun factor thing than using one style over the other for competative reasons.

 

Cool Deuce ,

 

Do you see how the proposed could be worded better so this could happen .........cause what you said above would really be nice to be able to do ....if you had the skills.......and not be stuck in an aged based category

[Snakebite]

Crooked Jake;

 

I'm kinda like you on this... I think that it would be neat to shoot any way, any time, any dress. One reason that it was put on the board was to offer a place where all folks could shoot if the age based system were to be tightend up. The idea of an Open category is nothing new... in past proposals it REQUIRED top shooters to be PUT into the open category via a ranking system... yeah sure... that's just not going to work in this game. I'm pretty sure also that many of the Top shooters would not risk going head to head with each other by giving up their chance to win in another category... BUT.. I do think that the large group of shooters, who have for years claimed that "I'm just here to have fun", will jump into it. No excuses, about big bore, small bore, one hand, two hand, both hands, restrictive equipment yatta, yatta, yatta... just shoot. That would be what the Open category should be about.

 

Snakebite

[el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162]

I suggest the following amendment to Question 3:

 

"3) Should 'Cowboy/Cowgirl' be made “OPEN” categories with NO RESTRICTIONS regarding gender, age, shooting style or propellant, by adding 'Gunfighter' as a permitted shooting style?

 

This would provide a single category in which ANY shooter could register.

(Gunfighter-style competitors would have to comply with the current category regulations)"

 

Cowboy/Cowgirl is already an "any age" category with no restrictions on propellant or firearm type. This adds the "Open" category without increasing the overall number of categories. This does not, in any way, affect the official Gunfighter category.

 

Salud!

eGG

[Grizzly Dave]

el Gate - now that one might gain more interest.

 

In my mind, as written, all #3 does is give back part of what #2 would take away if it passes.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Crooked Jake;

 

I'm kinda like you on this... I think that it would be neat to shoot any way, any time, any dress.

One reason that it was put on the board was to offer a place where all folks could shoot if the age based system were to be tightend up.

The idea of an Open category is nothing new... in past proposals it REQUIRED top shooters to be PUT into the open category via a ranking system... yeah sure... that's just not going to work in this game. I'm pretty sure also that many of the Top shooters would not risk going head to head with each other by giving up their chance to win in another category... BUT.. I do think that the large group of shooters, who have for years claimed that "I'm just here to have fun", will jump into it. No excuses, about big bore, small bore, one hand, two hand, both hands, restrictive equipment yatta, yatta, yatta... just shoot. That would be what the Open category should be about.

 

Snakebite

 

...and THAT is the "why" and the INTENT of the proposal.

NO MONEY PURSE

NO "RANKING" SYSTEM

NOBODY being FORCED to do anything.

 

F'rintance...I want to try shooting Gunfighter-style (all equipment being in compliance, of course)...I try it for a couple stages, but it just don't seem to be working (too many misses, P's and confusion...maybe my left hand just ain't cooperating that day).

So, I switch back to either Duelist-style (or even two-handed) for the rest of the match...

with no progressive P/SDQ/MDQ penalty for "shooting out of category" because the OPEN category would allow doing so.

[Anvil Al #59168]

...and THAT is the "why" and the INTENT of the proposal.

NO MONEY PURSE

NO "RANKING" SYSTEM

NOBODY being FORCED to do anything.

 

F'rintance...I want to try shooting Gunfighter-style (all equipment being in compliance, of course)...I try it for a couple stages, but it just don't seem to be working (too many misses, P's and confusion...maybe my left hand just ain't cooperating that day).

So, I switch back to either Duelist-style (or even two-handed) for the rest of the match...

with no progressive P/SDQ/MDQ penalty for "shooting out of category" because the OPEN category would allow doing so.

 

 

Allow aged based categorys to shoot GFer style would do the same thing.

 

And don't think it would take away from GFer AT ALL. As now you can shoot Duelist style in the aged based.

Has it pulled aways from the duelist category????? NO. Duelist still sign up in duelist. GFers will still

sign up for GFer.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Allow aged based categorys to shoot GFer style would do the same thing.

 

...

 

That proposal is not on the agenda.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

I think Snakebite hit the nail on the head. It depends on Agenda item #2.

 

As I understand it, IF Agenday item #2 passes, "standard" two-handed, smokeless shooters will be locked into an age based category. (Unless they shoot a "costume" category such as B Western.)

 

So a new "Open" category would then be created under this agenda item to give them another choice other than their age bracket.

 

I could be wrong in that logic, but that is the way I currently see it.

 

I don't personally support item #2, but if it were to pass, I think we would be almost forced into needing an Open Category. It would not be merely for the top shooters but for shooters that still wanted a little "freedom of choice" that would be lost with item 2..

[crooked jake,4371]

...and THAT is the "why" and the INTENT of the proposal.

NO MONEY PURSE

NO "RANKING" SYSTEM

NOBODY being FORCED to do anything.

 

F'rintance...I want to try shooting Gunfighter-style (all equipment being in compliance, of course)...I try it for a couple stages, but it just don't seem to be working (too many misses, P's and confusion...maybe my left hand just ain't cooperating that day).

So, I switch back to either Duelist-style (or even two-handed) for the rest of the match...

with no progressive P/SDQ/MDQ penalty for "shooting out of category" because the OPEN category would allow doing so.

 

Cool ..........thanks Pale Wolf

[crooked jake,4371]

Crooked Jake;

 

I'm kinda like you on this... I think that it would be neat to shoot any way, any time, any dress. One reason that it was put on the board was to offer a place where all folks could shoot if the age based system were to be tightend up. The idea of an Open category is nothing new... in past proposals it REQUIRED top shooters to be PUT into the open category via a ranking system... yeah sure... that's just not going to work in this game. I'm pretty sure also that many of the Top shooters would not risk going head to head with each other by giving up their chance to win in another category... BUT.. I do think that the large group of shooters, who have for years claimed that "I'm just here to have fun", will jump into it. No excuses, about big bore, small bore, one hand, two hand, both hands, restrictive equipment yatta, yatta, yatta... just shoot. That would be what the Open category should be about.

 

Snakebite

 

Thanks Snakebite ........kinda what I was thinkin too

[John E. Law]

I shoot SASS, USPSA and Steel Challenge. I like shooting and do pretty well in all three. I never shoot SC or USPSA on a weekend that I can shoot Cowboy. I don't like the stuck up a$$hole shooters with their primadonna attitudes that you get in the other disciplines. SASS members embrace new shooters especially talented ones. IPSC and SC look at them as "competition" and ignore them. Example: This past weekend I went to a SC match, one that I had never been to before, and I brought along 2 new shooters who have only done static range shooting. I was ignored by everyone, but my 2 friends after the first string for the rest of the match. The "regulars" talked a little bit to the new shooters (mostly to advise them of possible safety issues), but not a word to me. Why? I was competiton they were not. I came in 2nd in Limited by .54 seconds. You don't have that attitude in SASS and I love that. SASS is a blast, it's fun to shoot, and the people are great. In SASS your biggest competitor will loan you his/her rifle if yours were to break because they want to beat you because they were better that day NOT because your equipment fails, unlike IPSC who like that you can't finish becase it means more for them. I have made some realy great cowboy friends in the past 6 years shooting SASS and continue to meet more every match.

 

How many have I made in USPSA and Steel Challenge combined in the same amount of time???

 

ZERO.

 

They're all about the money. They sandbag the qualifiers so they can classify lower in order to compete in a class below their skill level just so they can get bigger prizes at the big matches.

 

As someone mentioned before I also raced motocross. After 25 years I quit and took up competitive shooting. Why?? For the same reasons mentioned here, Money is killing the amature level. When you can cheat to qualify into a lower skill level, you kill the fun!

 

If you put money in SASS and you will get the same thing... that is IF the orginazation even stayed together after the flood of members left. Chuckaroo nailed in directly on the head. Leave SASS as it is, you want prize money?? Go shoot IPSC!

 

As for the Open Category...

 

NO. There are to many categories now and from what I've heard here it may be fun at the local level, but it still gets a low turnout so WHY would we need it a recognized category?? I also think it's just a stepping stone to the issue of money.

 

That's my view from the fire,

 

JEL

 

Also, for those who mentioned Holy Terror and those others who shoot professionally in other disciplines. I don't know her or them and I can't speak for them, but they still shoot cowboy when they can, Why? It's obviously not for money! Maybe it's because they enjoy it? Maybe they want to get away from the stress and attitudes of the money matches and shoot with friends for fun just like we do every weekend. It's just a thought..

[Fireball #7709 Life]

I vote No as proposed.

 

1) Someone wants to "try" GF or Duelist and can't commit to 5 stages of it at a monthly match? They don't want to "try" it very bad.

 

2) It allows everyone to "compete", small bore, big bore, GF, Duelist, etc? They already do, it's called Overall results.

 

3) Someone wants to "try" other propellants? Again, if they can't commit to 5 stages, they probably aren't too motivated to "try" it.(besides, most matches probably wouldn't bat an eye at someone shooting a stage with BP rounds in a "smokless" category)

 

Other than another set of plaques, this adds nothing to our game.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

I vote No as proposed.

 

1) Someone wants to "try" GF or Duelist and can't commit to 5 stages of it at a monthly match? They don't want to "try" it very bad.

 

2) It allows everyone to "compete", small bore, big bore, GF, Duelist, etc? They already do, it's called Overall results.

 

3) Someone wants to "try" other propellants? Again, if they can't commit to 5 stages, they probably aren't too motivated to "try" it.(besides, most matches probably wouldn't bat an eye at someone shooting a stage with BP rounds in a "smokless" category)

 

Other than another set of plaques, this adds nothing to our game.

 

Always so negative.....

[Doc Shapiro]

...and THAT is the "why" and the INTENT of the proposal.

NO MONEY PURSE

NO "RANKING" SYSTEM

NOBODY being FORCED to do anything.

 

F'rintance...I want to try shooting Gunfighter-style (all equipment being in compliance, of course)...I try it for a couple stages, but it just don't seem to be working (too many misses, P's and confusion...maybe my left hand just ain't cooperating that day).

So, I switch back to either Duelist-style (or even two-handed) for the rest of the match...

with no progressive P/SDQ/MDQ penalty for "shooting out of category" because the OPEN category would allow doing so.

 

We tried this once at a local match for a year or so. Extraordinarily small usage. Category was cancelled.

 

I see no compelling reason for this category based on personal experience and a significant amount of thought.

 

I like the other suggestion above that Cowboy/Cowgirl be opened up for any shooting style. Even better, all the age group categories should be opened up.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

another three pages proving that it's awfully hard to fix 'stupid'

[Curly Red Ryder]

...and THAT is the "why" and the INTENT of the proposal.

NO MONEY PURSE

NO "RANKING" SYSTEM

NOBODY being FORCED to do anything.

 

F'rintance...I want to try shooting Gunfighter-style (all equipment being in compliance, of course)...I try it for a couple stages, but it just don't seem to be working (too many misses, P's and confusion...maybe my left hand just ain't cooperating that day).

So, I switch back to either Duelist-style (or even two-handed) for the rest of the match...

with no progressive P/SDQ/MDQ penalty for "shooting out of category" because the OPEN category would allow doing so.

 

Will this allows to change the revolver shooting style for any reason during the course of a stage between the two revolvers, for instance begin the stage Duelist and swap to double handed for the second revolver?

I think if it's really open it can allow such a change.

Just my 2 cents.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Will this allows to change the revolver shooting style for any reason during the course of a stage between the two revolvers, for instance begin the stage Duelist and swap to double handed for the second revolver?

I think if it's really open it can allow such a change.

Just my 2 cents.

Hi Dear Curly,

 

Yes and I believe that is already possible in any age-related category and B-Western.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Brett Cantrell]

"I like the other suggestion above that Cowboy/Cowgirl be opened up for any shooting style. Even better, all the age group categories should be opened up."

 

A BIG +1 !

 

Brett

[Brett Cantrell]

Hi Dear Curly,

 

Yes and I believe that is already possible in any age-related category and B-Western.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

Hi Allie,

Just trying to get this right...if I'm shooting in Senior Duelist for example, I can shoot my first pistol with one hand, and shoot my second pistol with both hands?

Thanks,

Brett

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Allie,

Just trying to get this right...if I'm shooting in Senior Duelist for example, I can shoot my first pistol with one hand, and shoot my second pistol with both hands?

Thanks,

Brett

Hi Brett,

 

No you may not as you are shooting Senior Duelist. However if you sign up for Senior, you may shoot any style but gunfighter.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162]

Hi Allie,

Just trying to get this right...if I'm shooting in Senior Duelist for example, I can shoot my first pistol with one hand, and shoot my second pistol with both hands?

Thanks,

Brett

 

 

No. If you are shooting any Duelist category, you can shoot both pistols with one hand, for instance, your right hand, or you can shoot one empty with, say, your right hand, and then draw and shoot your other pistol with your left. Then holster, or whatever the stage instructions say to do.

 

See p. 14 of the Shooters' Handbook:

 

“Duelist Style” is defined as shooting a revolver cocked and fired one handed, unsupported.

The revolver, hand, or shooting arm may not be touched by the off hand except when

resolving a malfunctioning revolver problem or when transferring the revolver from one

hand to the other.

• “Double Duelist Style” is defined as shooting a revolver cocked and fired one handed and

unsupported, with each hand, that is, left gun with the left hand and right gun with the right

hand. The revolver, hand or shooting arm may not be touched by the offhand except when

resolving a malfunctioning revolver problem.

• At no time shall the competitor have two loaded revolvers in hand at once."

 

But currently in age-based categories, a shooter can shoot two-handed, duelist or double duelist style. Just not Gunfighter.

 

I hope this clarifies.

 

Salud!

eGG

[Brasspounder]

Hell No!.

 

And Don't screw with Frontiersman....

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Allow aged based categorys to shoot GFer style would do the same thing.

 

 

That proposal is not on the agenda.

 

Then fix the agenda.

 

Age based categories can already shoot two handed or supported.

As Al says, simply allowing one more shooting style within age based eliminates the need for a "New" category.

 

Simple is always better than complex.

 

And it wouldn't be the first time that an agenda item was changed.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

That proposal is not on the agenda.

Hi PWB,

 

Is being on the agenda a requirement for a TG vote. It seems to me we added "bolo ties" to the list of accepted B-Western accoutrements last year and it was not on the agenda.

 

Regards,

 

Allie "who is working her way up 'the list' this year" Mo