Painted Filly Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Fillmore that is true. I try and be out of the way, on the opposite side that they are moving. It also depends how much on the left too. But regardless he should have gotten a rehoot! Painted Filly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 May be a surprise to some but the lowly brass picker is just as much a Range Officer as the TO or the spotters. That said -- leave the fool brass until the time is stopped and the shooter is clear of the vicinity and on the way to the ULT. OR just leave the fool brass until AFTER the match if we in all that big of a hurry. HAR! Like that could ever happen. Everyone wants to get the shootin' over in a hurry and get gone but nobody wants to leave w/o that brass or stay later to pick it up. Everyone wants to go to heaven but no one wants to die. REshoot. Can you please identify where in the RO handbooks that says the brass picker is a range officer? I can not find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taquila Tab, Sass #25048 Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 But regardless he should have gotten a rehoot! Painted Filly I agree with you, but under what rule would he be entitled to the reshoot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painted Filly Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 He was inhibited by the brasser being under foot and the TO discussing the brasser with him. Yes he went the wrong way but it went down hill from there. I as a TO would have given a reshoot without a second thought. The brasser should not have been that close to the shooter while he was still shooting period. Painted Filly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Handbook, bottom of pate 20 and continuing to page 21: Reshoots/restarts are not awarded for ammunition or firearm malfunctions. However, if there is a range failure (failure of props, timer, or the range officers) beyond the competitor’s control, a restart may be granted. No, it doesn't list every possibility, but I believe the intent is there enough to grant a reshoot. If we need a "simple, easy to understand" complete rule book, please refer to: The Code Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painted Filly Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Marauder, That is a "simple,easy to understand" rule book. NOT!!!!! But that aside. That is the rule that I am going with. Anyone that interfers with the shooter. Could be someone on the posse watching that yells to the shooter to do something that is incorrect and he does it. I would grant a reshoot for that as well. Does not happen alot but does happen. We are here to have fun and the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. I try to think of the Golden Rule. How do I want to be treated. We could all benefit from that. Painted Filly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 No doubt in my mind the shooter should have been given a re-shoot. There should not be anyone on the parallel firing line picking brass while the shooter is engaging targets, totally unsafe. What if the shooter had tripped over the brass picker and ended up dropping a loaded gun? Match DQ. Just not right. Benefit goes to the shooter, I say re-shoot. Perhaps he had a "senior moment". He should be allowed easy access to get to the right shooting position once he was helped by the RO. TB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Marauder, I try to think of the Golden Rule. How do I want to be treated. We could all benefit from that. Painted Filly Yep!! +1 for the Golden Rule. OT, but I've given reshoots when a bird landed on top of a target while the shooter was engaging the targets. Shooter didn't want to hurt the bird (splatter of lead off targets) and stopped. Good enough reason for me for a reshoot. Back to the original topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 I would have given a reshoot. Don't matter that he truned the wrong way. The stage is his. If he wants to run around it, all over it, go wrong way, or both ways. Don't matter. It's his. As long as he does it safe and by the rules. It's his stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 A pard PMed me asking me what made me think that a brass shagger is a Range Officer. This got me to cogitatin'. Dangerous I know. Here's the way it seems to me and if it ain't it oughta be: if the match requires the brass to be shagged between shooters then ipso facto the brass shagger is performing an official function. Anyone performing an official function on the firing line is ipso facto a Range Officer. Be it TO, Expediter, Spotter, or lowly Brass Shagger. PWB, can you please chime in and say officially if I am all wet again or if my line of reasoning makes any sense at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 A pard PMed me asking me what made me think that a brass shagger is a Range Officer. This got me to cogitatin'. Dangerous I know. Here's the way it seems to me and if it ain't it oughta be: if the match requires the brass to be shagged between shooters then ipso facto the brass shagger is performing an official function. Anyone performing an official function on the firing line is ipso facto a Range Officer. Be it TO, Expediter, Spotter, or lowly Brass Shagger. PWB, can you please chime in and say officially if I am all wet again or if my line of reasoning makes any sense at all? You really do need to turn your RO I and II pins!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 A pard PMed me asking me what made me think that a brass shagger is a Range Officer. This got me to cogitatin'. Dangerous I know. Here's the way it seems to me and if it ain't it oughta be: if the match requires the brass to be shagged between shooters then ipso facto the brass shagger is performing an official function. Anyone performing an official function on the firing line is ipso facto a Range Officer. Be it TO, Expediter, Spotter, or lowly Brass Shagger. PWB, can you please chime in and say officially if I am all wet again or if my line of reasoning makes any sense at all? The "official" list of Range Officer positions (and their 'job descriptions') can be found in the Range Operations Basic Safety Course (RO1) on pages 7-12 under "Match Procedures and Terms". "Brass shagger" is NOT on that list. Consider that some annual matches "hire" Boy Scouts, military and police cadets, and/or other groups of young people as "brass shaggers"...very few of whom have likely attended a SASS RO Course. At monthly matches, oftimes a shooter's (or visitor's) non-shooting youngsters willingly perform that function. I don't consider any of them "RO's" either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 You really do need to turn your RO I and II pins!!!! Before I complete my line of thought here, I have a question. Is a safety officer considered a range officer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 A pard PMed me asking me what made me think that a brass shagger is a Range Officer. This got me to cogitatin'. Dangerous I know. Here's the way it seems to me and if it ain't it oughta be: if the match requires the brass to be shagged between shooters then ipso facto the brass shagger is performing an official function. Anyone performing an official function on the firing line is ipso facto a Range Officer. Be it TO, Expediter, Spotter, or lowly Brass Shagger. PWB, can you please chime in and say officially if I am all wet again or if my line of reasoning makes any sense at all? Page 22 RO-I Reshoots/restarts are not awarded for ammunition or firearm malfunctions. However, if there is a range failure (failure of props, timer, or the range officers) beyond the competitor’s control, a restart may be granted. Your not all wet LD. It wouldn't matter if the 'what' that impeded the shooter was an RO, spotter, brasser or another competitor in the wrong place. EVERY shooter is entitled, I say again, ENTITLED, to a clean shot at a stage. In the above quote taken from the RO-I manual, note the section in parentheses. I do not see this as an EXCLUSIVE statement, only an EXAMPLE that is not all inclusive. Note what comes after; "BEYOND THE COMPETITOR'S CONTROL". True the shooter went the wrong way and the brasser probably figured it was safe to shag some brass, not expecting the shooter to go the wrong way. I can see an argument right there for not granting a reshoot. However, a shooter that encounters something like this is going to take SOME time to go 'huh-what the...' and THAT right there means the shooter was impeded by something out of his control. But that's not why I would grant a reshoot. I would grant a reshoot because EVERY competitor deserves a clean shot at the stage and the benefit of doubt ALWAYS goes to the shooter. Now having noticed that PWB added a reply whilst I was typing this, for all of you out there that would go "see, brassers ain't RO's so no reshoot PWB SAID so", please note that he said nothing of the kind. He merely defined the term RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 I already explained why on another thread, out of a sense of duty, I cannot turn in my RO pins. You should not let your personal dislike of me, even tho we have never met, color your opinion of my judgement. As I said on the other thread, I never TO but am often sought out for questionable rulings. The opinion of my local pards far out-weighs the opinion of Wire denizens, at least it does to me. If a match requires the brass to be shagged between shooters then the brass shagger(s) must therefore be given some kind of official status. Otherwise leave the brass lay and do away with the position. My opinion as to the OP is that the brass shagger is on the firing line performing an official function so thus he/she cannot be reduced to the rank of prop. For the purpose of this discussion then the shooter was impeded and should have gotten a re-shoot. PWB has spoken and I accept that ruling. The poor lowly Brass Shagger, no let's not capitalize it as he/she has no official capacity, the poor lowly brass shagger(s) are not Range Officers. Just paid or un-paid hands doing a required (which should not be required) task, cluttering up the firing line and getting in the way of the capitalized positions. There ain't no justice. And IMNSHO this ain't right. Give the bs'ers status and Capitalization to BSer's or leave the fool brass lay. I don't see how we can want it to be both ways. Hey you non-range Officers let's get that brass quick now, Shooters are on deck!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 While I'm all for a brass shaggers picking brass while the shooter is still shooting they must stay back from the line and make sure they will neither interfere or distract the shooter. A brasser crawling around on hands and knees on the line is a major safety issue and is not acceptable. Now that I have a more complete story, I would have given a re-shoot based on interference and the general confusion that was not all the shooters fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 5. Timer OperatorA) Is the Chief Range Officer for the stage and is in charge of the firing line, as long as he/she is running the timer. ... J) Once the stage begins, the Timer Operator stays within arm’s length of the competitor until the stage is finished. The Timer Operator then immediately announces the stage time to the shooter. Only after revolvers are holstered and long guns are action opened, muzzles pointed in a safe direction, and the shooter is heading towards the unloading table does the Timer Operator, declare “Range is Clear” and conveys the time to the Score Keeper in a loud, clear voice. RO1 p.7/8 IMO...I would consider it a "range failure" (as Dubious Don mentioned) in this case. Give the shooter a RESHOOT & request that the "Brass Shaggers" wait until the range is declared "CLEAR" by the T/O before moving to the line to perform that function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 If something was placed on the firing line after the buzzer sounded that caused a problem for the shooter, it's interference/prop failure/range failure, plain & simple. Re-shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddog McCoy SASS #5672 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Tab, I had this happen to me at a monthly match when I was in the south part of the state a month or so ago. I was shooting my shotgun and relized i could not see the last target as it was behind a pistol target and I started to take a step to the right and almost stepped on the posse marshel picking up my brass from my rifle. My double was loaded with the last shell and I cut the step in half and leaded right over the guy on the ground and shot the last knockdown target. I surprised him when I moved and when I was done I told him I had to move to shoot the last target. I kinda knew somthing was there when I was shooting as I could see it in my side vision but was not readly paying attention to it until I almost stepped on him. The entire posse insisted I take a reshoot as they agreed that I was impended by the guy picking up brass. I told them it was not a big deal but we needed to make sure we stayed out of the way of the shooter and since it was an oppertunity to shoot some more ammo, I reshot the stage and cut 1.5 sec off my time (clean both times). I can see this being a safety issuse as the shooter is distracted from the movement in his side vision ( I know it bothers the heck out of me as I think somebody is getting in front of me). I have seen it more times than I care to admit to in the last couple of months and if I am running the timer I have stopped them from picking up brass it it could discract the shooter and them made metion that we need to wait till the line is clear before picking up brass and stuff. Personally, I think a reshoot would be in order and when Palewolf commented, I saw what he stated but he did not comment on if he thought the shooter was impeeded by what happened. Not is as simple as a yes or no but I would like to hear him expand on this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddog McCoy SASS #5672 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Palewolf, Thanks for the answer while I was typing. Maddog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Well the pard PMed me again and advised me that I do not have a clue and really should turn in my pins. Well I readily admit to being clueless at times but I am still going to have to hold onto the pins for the time being. Unless advised by a higher authority than he to do so. I appreciate that he used the PM method of basically calling me an idjit instead of outright on the public forum which is the way a thing like that should be done. Thankfully here in our great USA even an idjit gets to have an opinion and gets to express it. I admit I have been guilty at times of picking up a few pieces of brass if they came within range of my picker and I thought I could do so without the shooter being distracted. I vow that practice will cease and none will be retrieved until the shooter is on his way off the line. Especially since I do not care if your brass or my brass ever gets picked up. I know, I know that ideer sure makes me an idjit in most folks minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Scatterbrain Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 If a match requires the brass to be shagged between shooters then the brass shagger(s) must therefore be given some kind of official status. Otherwise leave the brass lay and do away with the position. My opinion as to the OP is that the brass shagger is on the firing line performing an official function so thus he/she cannot be reduced to the rank of prop. For the purpose of this discussion then the shooter was impeded and should have gotten a re-shoot. PWB has spoken and I accept that ruling. The poor lowly Brass Shagger, no let's not capitalize it as he/she has no official capacity, the poor lowly brass shagger(s) are not Range Officers. Just paid or un-paid hands doing a required (which should not be required) task, cluttering up the firing line and getting in the way of the capitalized positions. There ain't no justice. And IMNSHO this ain't right. Give the bs'ers status and Capitalization to BSer's or leave the fool brass lay. I don't see how we can want it to be both ways. Hey you non-range Officers let's get that brass quick now, Shooters are on deck!! Is brass shagging actually a requirement? Is there any requirement to pick up any brass at all, ever, or is it a courtesy offered to reloaders? I realize many ranges require brass to be removed before one leaves the range. But isn't that a part of cleanup, akin to picking up trash? What I'm asking is, does SASS require brass to be removed as part of the game? I'm asking because I actually don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Is brass shagging actually a requirement? Is there any requirement to pick up any brass at all, ever, or is it a courtesy offered to reloaders? I realize many ranges require brass to be removed before one leaves the range. But isn't that a part of cleanup, akin to picking up trash? What I'm asking is, does SASS require brass to be removed as part of the game? I'm asking because I actually don't know. With most of us reloading. (would guess 98% reload there brass) And with the cost of brass. Most want it back. And it does not take long to get picked up. And at regular shoots. If I am shooting new or pretty new Starline. I sure would like to get atleast most of it back. Never get all of it back. But any helps out in the cost. You could pick it up at the end of the day and everyone split it. But then again. If I had new to start with I don't want a bunch of old coming back. Plus you need to get it out of the way at most stages anyway. Or your feet will be stepping all over it making it unsafe footing. It really does not take long to get most of it up while the shooter is moving to the unloading table and the SG targets are being reset. Just don't let it turn into a easter egg hunt and slow the posse down. It's really not a big deal most times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 PROPS... Note where brass is likely to fall. Be sure appointed assistance is in place to clear brass or shells that might impede the movement of a shooter. RO2 p.4 Even at a "lost brass" match, the rifle brass & shotgun hulls should be cleared out of the shooter's (and T/O's) path of movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Note to self...........under ultimate gamer move #1036.Having a bad stage.........quickly look around........locate any Pard not paying attention..........run them over............reshoot Wyatt PS: It took me 20 min to hit.....Add Reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ugly, SASS #18106 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Tab, I feel that the shooter should have gotten a reshoot; the brasser had no business being on the shooting line; the R.O. should not anticipate where the shooter is going, the R.O. is supposed to follow the shooter; unless this was the first stage, the R.O. should have mentioned to the brassers to stay off of the stage until the shooter is finished. I see a lot of brassers picking up brass while shooters are shooting and, if they stay behind the shooter and the R.O. that should be alright, I myself, hate to see movement or bodies out of the corner of my eye because it breaks my concentration and I for sure, don't know what that person I see out of the corner of my eye is doing or if they will get out of the way. I like to get my brass back at the end of a stage as much as anyone but, usually wind up missing one or two pieces of brass a stage; that's fine, any effort is appreciated but, some people make it a point of honor to pick up all the brass and hold up the rest of the shooters; get what brass and shells you can and move/stay out of the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taquila Tab, Sass #25048 Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 Tab, I feel that the shooter should have gotten a reshoot; the brasser had no business being on the shooting line; the R.O. should not anticipate where the shooter is going, the R.O. is supposed to follow the shooter; unless this was the first stage, the R.O. should have mentioned to the brassers to stay off of the stage until the shooter is finished. I see a lot of brassers picking up brass while shooters are shooting and, if they stay behind the shooter and the R.O. that should be alright, I myself, hate to see movement or bodies out of the corner of my eye because it breaks my concentration and I for sure, don't know what that person I see out of the corner of my eye is doing or if they will get out of the way. I like to get my brass back at the end of a stage as much as anyone but, usually wind up missing one or two pieces of brass a stage; that's fine, any effort is appreciated but, some people make it a point of honor to pick up all the brass and hold up the rest of the shooters; get what brass and shells you can and move/stay out of the way. Ugly, I agree with you 100%. In this particular case I had just shot the stage and was returning to my cart with my cleared weapons when it happened to the shooter behind me. I was not the RO and had no affiliation with this out-of-state match other than being a fellow registered shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingers McGee Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Howdy all. I was the TO on this particular stage; but not the posse marshal. Now let me tell you what actually happened. Tab is correct about the layout of the stage it is a double false front with an opening called the alley between and a boardwalk running in front. One stage is shot on the right half of the boardwalk and one stage on the left half. This particular stage was being shot on the left half. The stage instructions were starting from the left of the doorway at the beep move to the alleyway table & engage the shotgun and rifle targets then move to the doorway & engage the pistol targets. At the beep, the shooter moved to the alleyway table and engaged the rifle and shotgun targets. He then moved to the window between the alleyway and doorway & drew his pistol and cocked it. As he drew the pistol in the wrong position, I was telling him to move to the doorway to the left. He cocked the pistol as he pointed to the pistol targets through the window (drawing a 10 second procedural). I told him to go ahead and fire the pistol & move to the doorway. He hesitated, fired and started back to the alleyway. I was yelling doorway - left as were a couple of the spotters which caused him to hesitate again and finally proceed to the doorway to complete the stage. I didn't see the person picking up brass, and I'm not sure if he did. I was focused on the shooter and what he was doing and telling him left-left doorway as were others to get him back on track; which I'm sure caused his hesitation. He had already put one round on the correct pistol target from the wrong position through the window before he started the wrong direction. I did not offer a reshoot, and he did not ask for one. If he had asked for a reshoot because of interference by the brasser or a spotter, he probably would have gotten one. Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Huuummmmm?? Whole different scenario now With the info of original OP.. I was goin' with reshoot also.. and as it was summed up in the original OP would have been the correct call But.... Rance Thinkin' ya done good on this one Fingers (Show Me Mo Smoke) McGee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Looks like the RO wasn't watching what was happening on the stage closely enough. I still vote for a reshoot, but since the RO wasn't watching what was happening, he didn't see any evidence that a reshoot might be in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taquila Tab, Sass #25048 Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 I don't think anything really changes from the additional information provided. In my opinion, the RO was never at fault and what happened was beyond his control or what he could have reasonably anticipated. My reason for posting this was for an example we could all learn from. The important points I was trying to stress was: 1. Whether or not a reshoot is in order (and I believe it should have been) what rule should be cited to allow for it and, 2. I've noticed brassers and other posse members in their zeal to be helpful putting themselves into a position while the shooter is still in progress and where the unexpected could become a problem. There was never any hard feelings or upset on anyone's part at the match over the situation. In fact, this is a very fun match that both the shooter and I intend to put on our calendars for next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 My reason for posting this was for an example we could all learn from. The important points I was trying to stress was: 1. Whether or not a reshoot is in order (and I believe it should have been) what rule should be cited to allow for it and, 2. I've noticed brassers and other posse members in their zeal to be helpful putting themselves into a position while the shooter is still in progress and where the unexpected could become a problem. Valid point Tab.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Overall, I think the threat was a good lesson learned and shared. Always goo to hear PaleWolf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painted Filly Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 I still say reshoot, but I thought that he had been denied a reshoot. That does change things. Painted Filly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingers McGee Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Valid point Tab.. Agreed Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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