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Taquila Tab, Sass #25048

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At an annual club match something happened that I don’t ever recall seeing. The range has facades made so that two stages can be shot from them. In this case the prop from left to right)had a door, window, door, window and door. The stage called for the shooter to start from the middle door and engage the shotgun then rifle targets. Then move to the left door and engage the pistol targets.

 

The shooter started in the correct middle door and engaged the shotgun and rifle targets properly. Then, the shooter incorrectly moved toward the door to the right instead of the door to the left. When moving in the wrong direction, the shooter had to stop because a posse member was picking up brass. I would add the posse member was on their hands and knees and the shooter nearly tripped over them. The shooter finally was directed to the correct (left)door where the engaged the pistol targets correctly.

 

From the RO I Manual:

 

RE-SHOOTS/RESTARTS

At all SASS annual club, state, Regional, National, and World Championship matches, no reshoots/restarts will be given after the first shot goes down range as determined by the Chief Range Officer and the Match Director, except for:

 

• Prop or match equipment failure

• A Range Officer impeding the progress of the shooter

• Timer failure or unrecorded time

 

Should the shooter be entitled to a restart? The shooter was not impeded by a Range Officer (they were impeded by a brass picker) and the situation would not have occurred if the shooter had moved in the correction direction instead of moving to an incorrect (and unexpected) location.

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I'll answer the question with another question. If the brass picker had been a wall, would the shooter receive a reshoot? :blink:

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SURE you would give the shooter a reshoot. The stage belongs to him. Brass picker created a safety hazard! Interference by a brass picker is same as any other range officer. Just because the rule book doesn't call it out, you don't pick nits over this. Benefit to the shooter!

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

PS - Ya all know, it IS one of the TO's jobs to make sure the line is clear before he calls up the next shooter, right?

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SURE you would give the shooter a reshoot. The stage belongs to him. Brass picker created a safety hazard! Interference by a brass picker is same as any other range officer. Just because the rule book doesn't call it out, you don't pick nits over this. Benefit to the shooter!

 

Good luck, GJ

 

I agree. And what the heck is someone doing down there picking brass before the line is clear?

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I agree. And what the heck is someone doing down there picking brass before the line is clear?

I'm starting to see it a lot around my part of the country. The brass pickers are so enthusiastic they are picking up brass as the shooter is throwing it out.

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SURE you would give the shooter a reshoot. The stage belongs to him. Brass picker created a safety hazard! Interference by a brass picker is same as any other range officer. Just because the rule book doesn't call it out, you don't pick nits over this. Benefit to the shooter!

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

PS - Ya all know, it IS one of the TO's jobs to make sure the line is clear before he calls up the next shooter, right?

The line was clear when the shooter was called. The brass picker was picking up brass as the shooter was shooting.

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The line was clear when the shooter was called. The brass picker was picking up brass as the shooter was shooting.

 

That is EVEN WORSE! Don't care if the brass picker thought the shooter was "going the other way". If he got in the way, he's at fault. Even if he did not get in the way, but was on the firing line, he was at fault. You CANNOT slow down the shooter (and endanger his safety) because a brass picker (or anyone else on the posse) got up on the firing line and interfered!

 

Good luck, GJ

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May be a surprise to some but the lowly brass picker is just as much a Range Officer as the TO or the spotters. That said -- leave the fool brass until the time is stopped and the shooter is clear of the vicinity and on the way to the ULT. OR just leave the fool brass until AFTER the match if we in all that big of a hurry. HAR! Like that could ever happen. Everyone wants to get the shootin' over in a hurry and get gone but nobody wants to leave w/o that brass or stay later to pick it up. Everyone wants to go to heaven but no one wants to die.

 

REshoot.

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I'm starting to see it a lot around my part of the country. The brass pickers are so enthusiastic they are picking up brass as the shooter is throwing it out.

 

You might put a stop to that. As a shooter, I find it very distracting when someone is picking up brass before I'm done. As a T/O, I don't want the distraction either as I need to be focused on the shooter. A hot line is no place for anyone other than shooter and RO!

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he was interfered with? hmmm yes,,,,reshoot. he got lucky yu cud say, sum days you eat the bear, some days he eats you....

 

cheyenne

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he was interfered with? hmmm yes,,,,reshoot. he got lucky yu cud say, sum days you eat the bear, some days he eats you....

 

cheyenne

Actually, he didn't get lucky. He was denied a reshoot. The confusion cost him at least 10-15 seconds and he lost his category at that match by 14.50 seconds.

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This is a tough one.IF the picker had not been there and the Pard went the wrong way,he'd not get a re shoot just because he went the wrong way. I"d have to say no reshoot.

<now donning flame retardant suit>

 

 

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If the brasser was already present (which I suspect he was) when the shooter was started, the TO started the shooter with a unclear range.

Hence it shouldn't have taken place. Reshoot.

 

Hypothetically (and possibly what happened here)

If a shooter was started on a stage and a person suddenly became visible as downrange (appearing from behind a prop).

Wouldn't the TO cease fire and stop the stage! Then issue a reshoot.

That condition is not listed as a valid reason for a reshoot but it would still happen.

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Well, being that I tend to pick brass ,I have that PoV. The brass picker should not have been on the line. Its just not good practice as you can see. It can be unsafe with regard to 170 rule, ADs and tripping up a contestant. Not to mention the distraction. Ya just got to wait until the line is clear. IMHO the shooter gets to shoot the stage over again. Same as if he bumped into the TO or a spotter.

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:FlagAm: If the brass picker slowed his progess getting "back" to the correct opening, than the shooter was impeded. I got a question. Let's say he did trip over the brass picker, severe enough that a loaded pistol dropped to the ground; what then? Hang the darn brass picker! :lol: IMHO, if I was running the timer, and he collided with anyone on the line, I would give him a re-shoot - especially if it slowed his progress correcting his position. :FlagAm: IMHO, KCD
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Yes, he should have been given a reshoot. He didn't do anything improper or unsafe--he went the wrong way, which he was entitled to do and, had there not been a brasser crawling around, he would have been able to safely change direction and not been tripped. It's not the same as a wall or any other prop that the stage requires.

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The confusion cost him at least 10-15 seconds and he lost his category at that match by 14.50 seconds.

 

 

The confusion cost him fifteen seconds?? Fifteen seconds is a LONG time. Go outside, stand in one spot, (mental BEEP, start the timer), move to the right six feet, stand there for twelve seconds, then move to the left twelve feet. I'll bet the confusion cost him less than five seconds.

 

Interference by the RO, brass picker, another shooter, a stray dog, RE-SHOOT!

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The confusion cost him fifteen seconds?? Fifteen seconds is a LONG time. Go outside, stand in one spot, (mental BEEP, start the timer), move to the right six feet, stand there for twelve seconds, then move to the left twelve feet. I'll bet the confusion cost him less than five seconds.

 

Interference by the RO, brass picker, another shooter, a stray dog, RE-SHOOT!

 

Actually, it probably did cost him the 10-15 seconds. the shooter came to a complete stop. The RO was standing on the shooter's left and did not see the brasser. The RO asked the shooter why he stopped and the shooter pointed to the brasser. They had a short conversation, then the RO told the shooter to continue on (in the correct direction).

 

The shooter's raw time on that stage was 56.97. On his other stages his raw times were in the mid 30's to low 40's.

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IF...schmit!!! he was interfered with,,,,,period, and not by someone trying to help him!!! the line should have been clear. Iffn I was the TO I wud have stopped the shooter at that point! someone is on all fours in front of the shooter as he is moving and you want to say "if". was it a safe situation???? hmmm was confusion created by someone other than the shooter? hmmmmm

 

The firing line is the shooter's!!!!

 

 

cheyenne

 

As a TO I also try to ANTICIPATE what the shooter is going to do next,,,,course you have to be watching the shooter to do that...cousre it's the shooter's responsilbility, but as a TO, just saying....

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Just throwing this out there:

 

The argument has been made that he turned the wrong direction and bumped into an obstacle, no different than a prop.

 

If that be the case, then didn't he effectively shoot a different stage than the other participants? They had no obstacle in the same spot, so if they had turned the wrong way, the outcome would have been different.

 

I have no opinion either way; I'm just pondering the hypothetical.

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A prop is a prop,,,its supposed tu be thar,,,,someone crawling on the floor isn't. don't see the connection....

 

IF,,,,if cows cud fly we wudn't complain about bird droppings wud we...

 

CC

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FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE! I can't even believe there is a question if the benefit goes to the shooter. What the heck? Let's at least view it from the POV of safety. There is absolutely NO REASON for anyone (spotters, brassers, RO) to be in direct line of the firing line.

 

What if the shooter had stumbled and put that muzzle right in the brassers face? Or running with hammer down on empty revolvers? Or has an open '97 with a round on the carrier? YIKES!

 

This is a mess from the buzzer to the denial of a re-shoot. Glad that no one got hurt. Thanks for the post as this kind of thing happens too often.

 

I was running the timer and an overzealous target setter actually started downrange to put up a new clay on the stick. YIKES!

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I say RE-SHOOT! no question here and why was the TO on the shooters left if that is the direction he was supposed to go? That right there would have told me I am to go to the right. The TO needs to be on the opposite side of the shooter than he is supposed to move, or the shooter will run over the TO and then get a rehoot too!

 

Painted Filly

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Actually, it probably did cost him the 10-15 seconds. the shooter came to a complete stop. The RO was standing on the shooter's left and did not see the brasser. The RO asked the shooter why he stopped and the shooter pointed to the brasser. They had a short conversation, then the RO told the shooter to continue on (in the correct direction).

 

 

OK, my second time around,,, this post gives me more info. RO was in a position (behind shooter and against the wall??) that he couldn't see the brasser and had to ask. Shooter had to explain the situation (brasser on knees) and had a good crip on safety on the range and stopped proceedings until the situation was resolved.

 

There was interference by both the brasser and the RO. If RO is asking questions, then he is not properly coaching either.

 

 

I change my vote to....Reshoot!!

 

Blastmaster

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OK, my second time around,,, this post gives me more info. RO was in a position (behind shooter and against the wall??) that he couldn't see the brasser and had to ask. Shooter had to explain the situation (brasser on knees) and had a good crip on safety on the range and stopped proceedings until the situation was resolved.

 

There was interference by both the brasser and the RO. If RO is asking questions, then he is not properly coaching either.

 

 

I change my vote to....Reshoot!!

Blastmaster

There was no wall. This is a straight-line prop. The RO was standing behind but on the left of the shooter's center mass. The RO was turned at about a 45 deg angle toward the next anticipated direction the shooter would move. The brasser was to the RO's back (and about 4 feet to the right from the shooter's original starting position). There was no way the RO could have seen the brasser. The shooter had already come to a stop. The RO did nothing to impede the shooter.

 

Unless the RO had eyes in the back of his head, there's nothing the RO could have done to prevent the situation from happening prior to the situation. I don't feel the RO was in any way at fault for what happened.

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... I don't feel the RO was in any way at fault for what happened.

Other than not offering a reshoot immediately. :rolleyes:

Or calling CEASE FIRE when the interference to the shooter's progress was noted.

And maybe keeping track of what the brass picker is doing.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Question,,,just how far was the TO going to let the shooter go in the wrong direction? a dicussion? how bout? other way!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

btw, I stay BEHIND the shooter that way it's much harder for the shooter to get away.....

 

did they get tangled up? the shooter and brasser that is,,,,,if not the TO cud hav quickly corrected the shooter without a discussion.

 

such as...OTHER WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

CC

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For what it's worth, I think he should have gotten a reshoot too. If I had been the RO there would have been no doubt about the reshoot because I would have immediately stopped him and not let him finish the stage with his pistols. THAT would have been RO impediment.

 

But I brought this up for two reasons:

 

1. Usually on these you make the call threads conventional wisdom says call it the way the rule is written and not the way you think it should be. In this case the rule clearly states Range Officer impeding. It doesn't make any mention of any other posse members. And no, I don't believe you can call a brasser the Range Officer. Sometimes though, you can't always go by the way it written.

 

2. I see this sort of thing (people coming to the shooting line while the shooter is still in progress) happening more and more. Not only with brassers but how many times have you seen a shooter finish with a long gun then after moving to different shooting position someone else is taking the presumedly empty long gun to the unloading table? It's the same thing with the same possibilities.

 

The bottom line, there shouldn't be anyone else on the shooting line or in close proximity to the shooter other than the RO. We can all learn by this.

 

Also, I'm not trying to be critical of the brasser. Their heart was in the right place and they were trying to do a good job. Just this time it had negative consequences. I'd never be upset with someone who was volunteering to WORK!

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Question,,,just how far was the TO going to let the shooter go in the wrong direction? a dicussion? how bout? other way!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

btw, I stay BEHIND the shooter that way it's much harder for the shooter to get away.....

 

did they get tangled up? the shooter and brasser that is,,,,,if not the TO cud hav quickly corrected the shooter without a discussion.

 

such as...OTHER WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

CC

It was just one of those things. The shooter had just set his last long gun down and the RO was taking his first step to the left (anticipating the shooter's next movement) when the shooter moved two quick steps to the right. At that point the RO had zagged while the shooter zigged. There was about 4-5 feet of separation between the RO and the shooter. The shooter and brasser did not get tangled up or even make physical contact because the shooter saw them and came to halt.

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What I can not believe is he did not get a reshoot. That was very wrong. There was interference no matter who the person was it was interference! Reshoot! I would have asked for a ruling from the Match Director if it was me.

 

Painted Filly

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There was no wall. This is a straight-line prop. The RO was standing behind but on the left of the shooter's center mass. The RO was turned at about a 45 deg angle toward the next anticipated direction the shooter would move. The brasser was to the RO's back (and about 4 feet to the right from the shooter's original starting position). There was no way the RO could have seen the brasser. The shooter had already come to a stop. The RO did nothing to impede the shooter.

 

Unless the RO had eyes in the back of his head, there's nothing the RO could have done to prevent the situation from happening prior to the situation. I don't feel the RO was in any way at fault for what happened.

Just a question here, was the shooter left handed?

per the ROI

4. Stay Within Arm’s Length. In order to stop an unsafe act, the Chief Range Officer must be

within arm’s length of the shooter. In fact, the appropriate position for the Chief Range

Officer is behind and off to the strong side of the shooter. In other words, if the shooter is

right handed, the Chief Range Officer should be within arm’s length of the shooter, to the

rear and right of centerline. In this way, you can see the shooter operate the gun with his or

her strong hand. NEVER let the competitor get away from you.

 

If the shooter was left handed the RO would have turned with him to the right and should have seen the brasser at about the same time as the shooter. (IMO)

If the shooter was right handed the RO would have had his back partially to the shooter (45 degree angle to the next shooting position and on the rear/left of the shooter) meaning the RO's head would have been in an uncomfortable position to view the right side of the stage and possibly to have a clear view of the gun or the brasser. Not optimal positioning (IMO) Was that the case?

 

Just curious and NOT judgemental. Good post for learning from

 

Regards

 

:FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

 

BTW my vote is for reshoot and a talk with posse members about safety.

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Just a question here, was the shooter left handed?

per the ROI

4. Stay Within Arm’s Length. In order to stop an unsafe act, the Chief Range Officer must be

within arm’s length of the shooter. In fact, the appropriate position for the Chief Range

Officer is behind and off to the strong side of the shooter. In other words, if the shooter is

right handed, the Chief Range Officer should be within arm’s length of the shooter, to the

rear and right of centerline. In this way, you can see the shooter operate the gun with his or

her strong hand. NEVER let the competitor get away from you.

 

If the shooter was left handed the RO would have turned with him to the right and should have seen the brasser at about the same time as the shooter. (IMO)

If the shooter was right handed the RO would have had his back partially to the shooter (45 degree angle to the next shooting position and on the rear/left of the shooter) meaning the RO's head would have been in an uncomfortable position to view the right side of the stage and possibly to have a clear view of the gun or the brasser. Not optimal positioning (IMO) Was that the case?

 

Just curious and NOT judgemental. Good post for learning from

 

Regards

 

:FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

 

BTW my vote is for reshoot and a talk with posse members about safety.

The shooter was right handed (but was shooting the stages double duelist). The RO was within arms-length of the shooter when he was shooting. It wasn't until after the shooter had set the long gun down that they became a little further separated. I agree though, the RO was probably not in the optimal position but he was not necessarily in a bad position either.

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I say RE-SHOOT! no question here and why was the TO on the shooters left if that is the direction he was supposed to go? That right there would have told me I am to go to the right. The TO needs to be on the opposite side of the shooter than he is supposed to move, or the shooter will run over the TO and then get a rehoot too!

 

Painted Filly

Not necessarily. The TO should stand behind the shooter and off to any side that allows optimal view of the shooter and firearm. A left-handed shooter for example.

 

Fillmore

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