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Quesion about 170 Degree Rule


Marauder SASS #13056

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Huh? Place the pistol on the LT? My pistols never touch the table, much less get laid on the table. Pull one, hold it, tho 5 rounds in'er, re-holster. Repeat for the other side. I see no need to ever lay a pistol on the LT. EVER. Good way to get splinters in me dainty hands or scuff up the gun. Sometimes the blanket or astroturf is wet, might cause rust dontchaknow.

 

If a club requires laying the pistols on the LT, I ain't burnin' gas to get there. Hopefully such a silly NON rule is clearly stated on the website or match flyer.

 

If you READ the article...there is no reference to ANY rule about "MUST put pistol on the table". <_<

...just as there is NO reference to the 170º rule.

 

The POINT is to NOT SWEEP anyone at the LT when drawing a revolver from a holster (specifically in ref to crossdraws).

A shooter can be SDQ'd for doing so...just as a shooter can be MDQ'd for sweeping anyone at the LT while holstering a LOADED revolver.

The same NO SWEEPING rules apply at the ULT (but the article was about LOADING TABLE etiquette).

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"At the loading table, you must do the twist, dance or whatever it takes to draw the revolver and place it on the table and not sweep anyone."

Oct CC - p.57

I always wonder what the penalty is at the Loading Table when the owner of the revolvers reaches in front of muzzle of an unloaded or loaded revolver laying on the table while loading their handguns? If I haven't seen it happen over X,000 times - haven't seen it once and nary a word is ever spoken by the Loading Officer! Nor has the owner said ... "I just swept myself!" In this case their hand! :blink:

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Huh? Place the pistol on the LT? My pistols never touch the table, much less get laid on the table. Pull one, hold it, tho 5 rounds in'er, re-holster. Repeat for the other side. I see no need to ever lay a pistol on the LT. EVER. Good way to get splinters in me dainty hands or scuff up the gun. Sometimes the blanket or astroturf is wet, might cause rust dontchaknow.

 

If a club requires laying the pistols on the LT, I ain't burnin' gas to get there. Hopefully such a silly NON rule is clearly stated on the website or match flyer.

Nit, meet picker. Microscope and tweezers heading your way.

 

BTW, sent that RO2 pin in to Hipshot yet?

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=169579&st=0

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Huh? Place the pistol on the LT? My pistols never touch the table, much less get laid on the table. Pull one, hold it, tho 5 rounds in'er, re-holster. Repeat for the other side. I see no need to ever lay a pistol on the LT. EVER. Good way to get splinters in me dainty hands or scuff up the gun. Sometimes the blanket or astroturf is wet, might cause rust dontchaknow.

 

If a club requires laying the pistols on the LT, I ain't burnin' gas to get there. Hopefully such a silly NON rule is clearly stated on the website or match flyer.

 

You might get to save a lot of gas in some areas. Here in Texas they usually do not condone reholstering until the shooter just in front of you has shot his last shot. You then holster your pistols and pick up your long guns, as you wait for your call to the line.

 

Holstering way early can lead to a shooter unintentionally walking away from the LT with loaded guns in his holsters. If they are laying on the LT, that won't happen.

 

RBK

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I always wonder what the penalty is at the Loading Table when the owner of the revolvers reaches in front of muzzle of an unloaded or loaded revolver laying on the table while loading their handguns? If I haven't seen it happen over X,000 times - haven't seen it once and nary a word is ever spoken by the Loading Officer! Nor has the owner said ... "I just swept myself!" In this case their hand! :blink:

 

There is no penalty for "sweeping oneself"...if it is even considered "sweeping" when a firearm is not "in hand" (exception in the rules for a falling/dropped firearm).

 

What's the penalty for a spotter stepping in front of a staged long gun (e.g. on a table/prop) when moving forward to better observe the targets with a shooter engaging pistol targets downrange?

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You might get to save a lot of gas in some areas. Here in Texas they usually do not condone reholstering until the shooter just in front of you has shot his last shot. You then holster your pistols and pick up your long guns, as you wait for your call to the line.

Holstering way early can lead to a shooter unintentionally walking away from the LT with loaded guns in his holsters. If they are laying on the LT, that won't happen.

RBK

Ya outght not to generalize like that pard. In my part of TX, it's rather the norm, not the exception. Walking away from the loading table with loaded firearms is a matter of personal responsibility, but WILL net you a MDQ for violating the "cold range" nature of our matches. Ain't no rule gonna protect you from yourself. Sorta like that "shoot-n-order" or "as-ya-feel-like" nature of various clubs.

 

Edited to add: I guess I oughta clarify... holstered is norm after loading. Shuffling two guns along a loading table is enough of a handful, four is doubling the potential for an accident.

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You might get to save a lot of gas in some areas. Here in Texas they usually do not condone reholstering until the shooter just in front of you has shot his last shot. You then holster your pistols and pick up your long guns, as you wait for your call to the line.

 

Holstering way early can lead to a shooter unintentionally walking away from the LT with loaded guns in his holsters. If they are laying on the LT, that won't happen.

 

RBK

 

Yeah...it MUCH safer shufflin a couple of loaded pistols around on a loading bench...

 

And around here, it's holster when ya want. If you walk away, ya git penalized.

 

Safest place for loaded pistols is in yer holsters!

 

OY!

 

:wacko:

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Yeah...it MUCH safer shufflin a couple of loaded pistols around on a loading bench...

 

And around here, it's holster when ya want. If you walk away, ya git penalized.

 

Safest place for loaded pistols is in yer holsters!

 

OY!

 

:wacko:

 

Phantom's right.

You start moving loaded pistols from one end of table to the other and you're just an accident waiting to happen!!

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I can't disagree that it is probably just as safe with them holstered, but there are clubs around here that simply don't condone that, and will readily tell you not to do so until it's your turn to shoot.

 

The argument that a loaded single action revolver being moved down on the loading table is an accident waiting to happen, when it is hammer down on a empty chamber is pure bull, and trying to convince anyone that it is unsafe is utter nonsense. Moving the gun will not cause you to cock the gun, much less cock and fire it.

 

Personally, I have no problem with either way of doing it, but then some Clubs do. I do have a problem with people stating things that are patently untrue.

 

When in Rome, do as Romans do. Saves lots of unpleasant conversation. The Club has the right to enforce any rule that they deem has safety involved, no matter how trivial it may be.

 

RBK

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I see no need to ever lay a pistol on the LT. EVER.

 

Be careful when you use absolute terms such as NEVER, EVER, ALWAYS, etc.

 

For instance; you've loaded your pistols (Without EVER letting them touch the table) and then you realize you left something back in your gun cart. Do you then UNload your pistils so you can legally leave the table or do you set your loaded pistols down on the table? I got $20 says I know which one. ;)

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You might get to save a lot of gas in some areas. Here in Texas they usually do not condone reholstering until the shooter just in front of you has shot his last shot. You then holster your pistols and pick up your long guns, as you wait for your call to the line.

 

Holstering way early can lead to a shooter unintentionally walking away from the LT with loaded guns in his holsters. If they are laying on the LT, that won't happen.

 

RBK

 

Don't know how many clubs you have shot at in Texas??

But you might want to say "in the few clubs you shoot in". Because MOST leave it up to the shooter.

And MOST reholster.

Think I have shoot at a dozon or more clubs in Texas for 8 or so years. And everyone leaves it up to the shooter.

 

They are safer in my holsters than being moved around on some table with people trying to load.

 

If I walk away with them holstered after loading. There is a rule for that. Call me on it. But you won't have to. Because I will call myself on it.

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OK, if the LT is for practical purposes, same as the firing line, and the basis for the 170 rule, where does the LTO stand? If he stands at either end, he has placed himself ahead of the line. Does this mean the LTOs must stand behind the shooter who is loading, and look over their shoulder?

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They are safer in my holsters than being moved around on some table with people trying to load.

 

If I walk away with them holstered after loading. There is a rule for that. Call me on it. But you won't have to. Because I will call myself on it.

+1...I can't believe I read this whole thread. But, one thing is for certain: A loaded revolver can NOT fall or be accidentally knocked (often by another shooter shuffling guns) off the loading table if it's already holstered. :wacko:

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I can't disagree that it is probably just as safe with them holstered, but there are clubs around here that simply don't condone that, and will readily tell you not to do so until it's your turn to shoot.

 

The argument that a loaded single action revolver being moved down on the loading table is an accident waiting to happen, when it is hammer down on a empty chamber is pure bull, and trying to convince anyone that it is unsafe is utter nonsense. Moving the gun will not cause you to cock the gun, much less cock and fire it.

 

Personally, I have no problem with either way of doing it, but then some Clubs do. I do have a problem with people stating things that are patently untrue.

 

When in Rome, do as Romans do. Saves lots of unpleasant conversation. The Club has the right to enforce any rule that they deem has safety involved, no matter how trivial it may be.

 

RBK

 

You've really got to work on the comprehension thingie. The fact that one is handling a loaded Single Action Revolver numerous times as they slide it down the loading table exposes folks to a higher potential for an accident.

 

Being that you've been around this game for a long time, you've obviously run across folks that didn't leave their hammer down on an emtpy cylinder...right?

 

Please step away from your desire to champion the way YOU do it at YOUR club and consider that it's perhaps not the best way to do things.

 

:FlagAm:

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You've really got to work on the comprehension thingie. The fact that one is handling a loaded Single Action Revolver numerous times as they slide it down the loading table exposes folks to a higher potential for an accident.

 

Being that you've been around this game for a long time, you've obviously run across folks that didn't leave their hammer down on an emtpy cylinder...right?

 

Please step away from your desire to champion the way YOU do it at YOUR club and consider that it's perhaps not the best way to do things.

 

:FlagAm:

 

 

I've seen it done both ways. Our club has a tradition (not required) of folks immediately holstering guns upon the LTO declaring them properly loaded (empty under the hammer). Typically revolver never leaves the hand, and is immediately returned to leather once declared properly loaded. I like that better, because as soon as the LTO declares "good gun", the shooter holsters it and as LTO I don't have to think about it again. With the other tradition, often a shooter will put his guns on the LT along with his long guns, and may not immediately load his pistols... By the time ya have two or three shooters and all their guns on the table, it's pretty easy to lose track of what's empty, what's loaded and checked, etc. Further, as guns shuffle forward, pistols may get bumped by long guns, folks may inadvertantly handle others pistols, which many don't like, (I saw one gal holster and start to shoot the wrong guns, which was noticed when a .45 load of some decent loading went off when she expected her light .38 loads, etc.) She just picked up the wrong set of pistols.

 

"When in Rome..." But I don't volunteer as LTO in the places where they place handguns on the table routinely (except for those instances where somebody needs to go back to their cart, etc), and don't particularly like that method.

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The argument that a loaded single action revolver being moved down on the loading table is an accident waiting to happen, when it is hammer down on a empty chamber is pure bull, and trying to convince anyone that it is unsafe is utter nonsense. Moving the gun will not cause you to cock the gun, much less cock and fire it.

RBK

 

RBK, I see that you are pretty new to this sport so let me try to explain what an "accident" is, and then how an "accident" at the loading table can and does happen.

 

#1, according to Webster's Dictionary an accident is "an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance".

 

#2, Yes we are supposed to have our pistols hammer down on a empty chamber,but does this always occur? Absolutely not!That is why we have penalties to address that,because it can and DOES happen!

 

I have see pistols holstered with the hammer cocked that no one caught until they were at the firing line.Did the shooter fail his job..Yes! Did the loading table officer fail his job..Yes! But it still happened!!

 

I have see rifle and pistols accidentally fired at the loading table,or knocked off of the loading table, or just plain dropped. Accidents happen!

 

I have shot all over this country and it happens everywhere, thankfully just not very often, but it does happen.

 

So "pure bull"......I don't think so!!!

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I can go either way, but prefer to holster before the shooter in front of me goes to shoot.

 

I agree that the more you handle something, the more risk that is involved.

 

My other concern with waiting to holster the guns until just before shooting is that now you have two hands to handle four guns in a sometimes small space and in a short time - and under perhaps mild stress. And even an empty dropped gun gets dirty.. :angry:

 

Yes, our guns should not have a round under the chamber, but stuff can happen. So it is good to have two or thee levels of safety. (Although more than 3 normally backfires, but that is for another thread. :) )

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Be careful when you use absolute terms such as NEVER, EVER, ALWAYS, etc.

 

For instance; you've loaded your pistols (Without EVER letting them touch the table) and then you realize you left something back in your gun cart. Do you then UNload your pistils so you can legally leave the table or do you set your loaded pistols down on the table? I got $20 says I know which one. ;)

 

Slim, I will be more than happy to relieve you of your money. In over 16 and a half years I have NEVER had to go back to my cart. NEVER. When I get to the LT I have everything with me that I need to complete the shooting scenario. YMMV.

 

I will just go ahead and state my own admittedly biased personal opinion: shuffling multiple pairs of loaded 6 guns down a possibly rickety splintery LT is STOOPID. I cannot believe some folks actually favor the practice. Our own founding father SASS #1 has said and I quote "the best place for the loaded 6 gun is in the holster".

 

I see there is one club in Texas I need to not travel to. I have shot all over Texas for a long time and that's the first Texas club I have heard of doing it. Everyone please advise if and where there are others and I will not darken their door.

 

Coupla years ago Comancheria Days decided they would do it even tho they never had before and didn't do it at their monthlies. Thank God wiser heads prevailed and dispensed with it for the next year's CD. If they hadn't I wouldn't have returned.

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If you READ the article...there is no reference to ANY rule about "MUST put pistol on the table". <_<

...just as there is NO reference to the 170º rule.

 

The POINT is to NOT SWEEP anyone at the LT when drawing a revolver from a holster (specifically in ref to crossdraws).

A shooter can be SDQ'd for doing so...just as a shooter can be MDQ'd for sweeping anyone at the LT while holstering a LOADED revolver.

The same NO SWEEPING rules apply at the ULT (but the article was about LOADING TABLE etiquette).

 

If and when my hard copy of the CC shows up out here in the hinterlands then I surely will read the article. Sorry to keep making your list pard but it punches me button hard when anyone starts tawkin' about having to lay pistols down on the LT.

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If and when my hard copy of the CC shows up out here in the hinterlands then I surely will read the article. Sorry to keep making your list pard but it punches me button hard when anyone starts tawkin' about having to lay pistols down on the LT.

There ain't any need to get surly about it. Remind me to tell you about the 1st time I shot BP at EOT... back when you HAD to use C&B revolvers to be allowed to call yourself a BP shooter... unlike nowadays when any ol' suppository lovin' yahoo can do it! There's tales to tell about the early days that'd curl yer toenails! Did I ever mention the time that Tex......

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Nit, meet picker. Microscope and tweezers heading your way.

 

BTW, sent that RO2 pin in to Hipshot yet?

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=169579&st=0

 

Us nit-pickers and correctors have a hard life. You should show a little empathy. I forget what I said on which thread that got you to doggin' my cats but no matter. Whatever it was I apologize and hope we can be pards as you seem to be such a very enthusiastic supporter of our beloved sport. Oh and if you might permit me just one more nit: like you I used to think it was ya'll. But a very nice lady informed me that it is y'all. Your spelling lesson for the day there teach.

 

Anyhoo thanks for dredging up that old thread, it was just as entertaining the second time around.

 

Oh and about that ROII pin see my next post on this string...

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Now for those who despise me even tho they've never met me, don't hold your breath. It was a rash statement. I was popping off in the heat of the moment. Now if I were ever to be guilty of some kind of RO misbehavior and powers that be wanted to strip it from me I wouldn't kick as in those circumstances I would deserve it. Not much danger as I never TO (semi-pro brass shagger is my forte) but I am the guy my club members come to when there is a questionable call. Most times I am right.

 

I cannot turn in the pin because of a sense of duty. We are a small club and there are only 3 of us eligible to be TG. Our present TG who I hope lives forever and me and one other. The other guy would also be a great TG but might be working halfway across the country this week and halfway across the country the other way next week. These days even a travelin' job is a good job. So if somehow someday circumstances demanded it, I would have to step up to the TG position. Our club has to have a TG that's all there is to it and if called upon I WILL step up and do my duty.

 

Sorry to disappoint...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

not

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Slim, I will be more than happy to relieve you of your money. In over 16 and a half years I have NEVER had to go back to my cart. NEVER. When I get to the LT I have everything with me that I need to complete the shooting scenario. YMMV.

 

I was using "you" as a generic term. If ANY shooter loads his pistols and then realizes he has to leave the table, what do you suggest he do? Unload or put the pistols on the table?

 

 

 

I will just go ahead and state my own admittedly biased personal opinion: shuffling multiple pairs of loaded 6 guns down a possibly rickety splintery LT is STOOPID. I cannot believe some folks actually favor the practice. Our own founding father SASS #1 has said and I quote "the best place for the loaded 6 gun is in the holster".

 

On this you and I COMPLETELY agree. ;)

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OK Slim ya got me I didn't realize ya meant the generic you. I'm too tired to be responding to threads. Just got home from our local 3 day annual where I had to try sleeeping at nite which never works for a vampire. So I owe ya 20 and I will owe ya forever before I cheat ya out of it. Of course you are right. If the guns are loaded certainly it is way mo easier to lay 'em as unload 'em and dat's zackly whut I would do IF I ever needed to.

 

Griff. Surly? Me? Surely you jest. Born a smart@$$ will die a smart@$$. Not overly proud of it jist the way it is. I better go be horizontal a while...

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OK, if the LT is for practical purposes, same as the firing line, and the basis for the 170 rule, where does the LTO stand? If he stands at either end, he has placed himself ahead of the line. Does this mean the LTOs must stand behind the shooter who is loading, and look over their shoulder?

 

Where else WOULD he or she stand? Although the front (downrange) side of the table does offer a completely unobstructed view of all the shooters at the loading table, it probably isn't the best place to be. (but it would give added incentive to the LTO to make sure his charges are SAFE....) :wacko:

 

(Hint.....How about on the UPRANGE side of the table at either end. Should be safe there.)

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Now for those who despise me even tho they've never met me, don't hold your breath. It was a rash statement. I was popping off in the heat of the moment.

My hat's off to any man who corrects a mistake. I wish I could truthfully say I never had to do that, but my wife would tell you otherwise.

 

Thanks for the comment about enthusiasm, I only wish my enthusiasm were matched by my skill. Oh well, perhaps some day...

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Huh? Place the pistol on the LT? My pistols never touch the table, much less get laid on the table. Pull one, hold it, tho 5 rounds in'er, re-holster. Repeat for the other side. I see no need to ever lay a pistol on the LT. EVER. Good way to get splinters in me dainty hands or scuff up the gun. Sometimes the blanket or astroturf is wet, might cause rust dontchaknow.

 

I don't think you got the meaning right? It's not a requirent anywhere to lay the pistols down on the LT. It's just saying drawing your pistol at the LT to get it ready to reload.

And lots of folks lay them down during the loading process.

 

 

If a club requires laying the pistols on the LT, I ain't burnin' gas to get there. Hopefully such a silly NON rule is clearly stated on the website or match flyer.

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Where else WOULD he or she stand? Although the front (downrange) side of the table does offer a completely unobstructed view of all the shooters at the loading table, it probably isn't the best place to be. (but it would give added incentive to the LTO to make sure his charges are SAFE....) :wacko:

 

(Hint.....How about on the UPRANGE side of the table at either end. Should be safe there.)

And yes, even then I've had a time or two when tables were crowded I had to remind the LTO to keep his hands back so as not to have em in front of the guns....

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Lone Dog - How do you load your rifle & shotgun without them touching the loading table?

 

Huh? Warn't no one tawkin' about long guns. We wuz discussin' pistols. Of course I lay both long guns on the table. But, and I assume you surely know this, the shotgun stays empty unless it's a WB stage or match.

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