Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 It's a Winchester 1897, serial number E 722xxx, take-down model with a 20 1/4" barrel marked CYL. Thanks, Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt McAllister Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 You have a riot gun. There barrels were 20 1/4". That is where most people make the mistake when they try to fake one. They cut them 20" exactly. Evry original riot gun I've ever owned was 20 1/4" from the bolt face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 According to my book it was made in 1923. Big questions are; 1. Is the action tight? 2. Does the ejector and the Firing pin work? 3. Does the take down mechanism work fully and tightly? My 2 cents worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Come On Christmas Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 Go to Marauder's site. You can tell by your serial # when your shotgun was made. There is also another page on the that talks about model changes in the 1897. I bought a take down model. I need to look mine up too. Shameless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Stumbled on to something interesting; When comparing the dates on Marauders site vs my copy of "Winchester Dates of Manufacture 1849-2000" First Edition By George Madis, Copyrighted 1999 I have found many differences in the dates attributed to each year. The book says that it is derived from info from records at the Winchester factory in New Haven and from the records at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center in Cody Wyoming. The contents of the following website agree with Madis's book. Proofhouse Dates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 There is a gentleman who posts on this site, Goes by the name Bert H, http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=6 who discredits most of the dates that Madis has published. Further, he says that most websites use the Madis dates in error. He has access to the polishing room records and has published his own book. While the dates may be only be off by several years, it really comes in to play when you try to establish a cut off date for antique firearms. I tend to believe his findings. Here is an example of a thread that he participated in http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=94210&highlight=winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted September 26, 2011 Author Share Posted September 26, 2011 The reason I ask is because The Blue Book indicates that Riot guns went from solid frame to take-down in 1935. The s/n on this gun indicates 1923, so what do I have? Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Fillmore Coffins, Whether you use Madis or Marauder's page it is either 1923 or 1922. What you have is a take-down that was cut down to be the same length as a riot gun. Which further casts doubt on the Cyl marking. Goody, I am not sure that a single person findings should not be taken as the rebuttal of other source of info. Is there any info beyond his posts to validate his findings? After all his findings are dismissing the info from the Winchester plant in New Haven AND info currently at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center in Cody Wyoming. I read the thread you provided a link for and found a Bert H that appears to be your man. In post #15 the last of thread he states; Again, if you are interested in an accurate source of Winchester DOM information, it is Chapter 8 of the book I co-wrote. Why would he not provide the name of the book or the ISBN or the other authors name? I wonder. Has anybody validated his story with BBHC? So what is the DOM? The date the serial number is assigned to a rough casting that needs more machining/polishing. Is it the date the whole gun is together? Is it the date the gun leaves the factory shipped to a distributor? Yes, of course the serial number is on the ATF traceable gun. Of course the gun in this thread was manufactured before SN was required on firearms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klondike SASS Life #29713 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Fillmore, It would be my guess and it is just that without seeing the 97. You probably have a factory riot gun barrel installed on a regular 97. If it was military or DOC, or some LEO Dept, it would most likely have some identifyng markings on the frame, stock, or somewhere. The Winchester Book goes into some detail as to what rolled marking are on the barrel and what years that was put on and what years they moved from one side to the other or on top of the barrel. If you really want to reasearch it, call the Cody museum and talk to Waddie he can tell you much more than you thought possible to know. We use to be contributors and it did not cost anything unless you wanted a letter, I don't what the rate is today. Give them a call and find out. I bought one at a pawn shop for $300 and it was worth over $3000, but you have to do your homework, it had all the signs and I knew what I was looking at (not that I do all the time). Good Luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Fillmore Coffins, Whether you use Madis or Marauder's page it is either 1923 or 1922. What you have is a take-down that was cut down to be the same length as a riot gun. Which further casts doubt on the Cyl marking. Goody, I am not sure that a single person findings should not be taken as the rebuttal of other source of info. Is there any info beyond his posts to validate his findings? After all his findings are dismissing the info from the Winchester plant in New Haven AND info currently at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center in Cody Wyoming. I read the thread you provided a link for and found a Bert H that appears to be your man. In post #15 the last of thread he states; Why would he not provide the name of the book or the ISBN or the other authors name? I wonder. Has anybody validated his story with BBHC? So what is the DOM? The date the serial number is assigned to a rough casting that needs more machining/polishing. Is it the date the whole gun is together? Is it the date the gun leaves the factory shipped to a distributor? Yes, of course the serial number is on the ATF traceable gun. Of course the gun in this thread was manufactured before SN was required on firearms. I have been frequenting that site for 3 or 4 years now. I have found it extremely informative and information given back and forth enlightening. I can say that when Bert H appeared on the site about a year ago he was challenged by others, as you have, to provide proof of his findings. He explained himself to the satisfaction of most on the site, including me. His posts on various Winchesters are always interesting and complete. Here is a link for his book fort sale, it took me all of 5 seconds to Google. As I said, I tend to believe him. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=246716873 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Looks like you got a bad case of the uglies to me. Oh wait, were you asking about the gun? Oops, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Goody, Helps if you know the name of the book and the complete name of the author. Neither was known by me just the Bert H. So not so fast, 5 second ggogler. The cover of the book, though of poor photo quality, indicates he was and EDITOR NOT an AUTHOR. My BS meter is still going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Goody, Helps if you know the name of the book and the complete name of the author. Neither was known by me just the Bert H. So not so fast, 5 second ggogler. The cover of the book, though of poor photo quality, indicates he was and EDITOR NOT an AUTHOR. My BS meter is still going. As I have nothing invested in this subject, other than to try and broaden folks knowledge, I will bow out. You are free to believe what you will, just as I am. Have good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Goody, It is not that I don't want to see other views, It is that you seem to take it as a gospel. By the way I did order the book. Hacker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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