Stoneburner Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 This happened back at Guns of August, but I've been pondering it a bit before talking to a wider audience... On our first rifle stage, I had shot two of the rundown balloons, but when I pulled the trigger on the third shot I got a face full of powder and an extra loud BOOM! that made my ears immediately ring. The action jammed and all I could do was run across the timer with the barrel in the air. On first examination, I thought the carrier had blown, but my Uberti '73 carbine in .45 Colt had functioned flawlessly earlier in the day with live ammo. Upon closer examination, I could see that the blank in the carrier had gone off at the same time as the blank in the chamber, blowing the nose out of the blank in the carrier, accounting for the face full of stuff. Back home where I could take it apart, I found that the primer had not gone off but had been blown back into the rifle's action. I was very fortunate in that the last blank, which was still in the mag tube, did not go off as well. The loading ladle was bent so as to be unusable. I'm not out to smear anyone, so I won't mention who made the crimped rifle blanks we were using (though it was NOT Tatonka Dan, who made the pistol blanks for the match, which functioned flawlessly.) When I contacted the manufacturer and described what happened, I essentially was told "Yeah, that can happen, especially if you're working the action fast, so you ought to keep a tub of bore butter on the loading table to seal the crimps." There was no offer to pay for the part I'll have to replace (only $25, but still...) and now that I think about it, I don't think there was even a "Sorry this happened." We'll definitely use bore butter on crimped ammo from now on, but do you think the manufacturer should take more responsibility, seeing as how he admitted that it was a problem known to him but yet no warnings are given to customers? Does anyone know of someone who still makes the 5-in-1s with a paper wad over the powder instead of a crimped end? Any thoughts or suggestions are welcomed. This should also serve as a warning if you use crimped ammo-be sure that crimp is sealed before loading it in the rifle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Seen #16162 Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I don't understand what occurred. You write "I had shot two of the rundown balloons, but when I pulled the trigger on the third shot I got a face full of powder and an extra loud BOOM! that made my ears immediately ring." This sounds like a classic out-of-battery discharge. But then you write "Upon closer examination, I could see that the blank in the carrier had gone off at the same time as the blank in the chamber, blowing the nose out of the blank in the carrier, accounting for the face full of stuff." I don't understand how the round went off at the same time as the round in the chamber since the action would have to be closed for it to fire. With the action closed the chamber was sealed when the round was fired. So unburnt embers would not enter the action until it was open and the 3rd round was being levered up. I'll have to go look at my blanks which have crimped ends but I am not aware of any issues with them in our club. As you suggest this may be a manufacturers issue. Is your supplier approved by SASS/CMSA? Interesting post. P.S. Wear ear protection. Very interested CMSA 73 carbine shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoneburner Posted September 21, 2011 Author Share Posted September 21, 2011 What the manufacturer told me is when us "young hotshots" work the action too quickly, fire from the fired round (and there's a bit of blowback firing a blank that can fit in a .38-40 in a .45 Colt) gets down to the blank in the carrier (where it can rise into position when the action is worked and the empty is ejected) and finds its way through spaces in the crimp to set off the powder. Those acknowledged spaces in the crimp, big enough to let an ignition source in, are what really concern me about that type of ammo. P.S. I typically don't wear ear protection when mounted shooting, but will start now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodine Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Now I'm confused. How can a blank fit in a .38-40 and a .45 colt??? Is your rifle a .45 Colt clone or .38-40??? Are you firing .38-40 blanks out of a .45 colt rifle??? Does anyone even even make .38-40 blanks? I hope you're not shoving the wrong ammo in the wrong gun!!! If that's the case, there's your problem. Scary! Bodine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel-eye Steve SASS #40674 Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Now I'm confused. How can a blank fit in a .38-40 and a .45 colt??? Is your rifle a .45 Colt clone or .38-40??? Are you firing .38-40 blanks out of a .45 colt rifle??? Does anyone even even make .38-40 blanks? I hope you're not shoving the wrong ammo in the wrong gun!!! If that's the case, there's your problem. Scary! Bodine I would assume he is using a blank based on a 5in1 case and yes they are designed to work in chambers from .38-40 to .45 colt. These are pretty common cases used for blanks and are well known in the reenacting and Mounted CAS communities. As mentioned they don't seal the chamber when fired and blow back is common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoneburner Posted September 21, 2011 Author Share Posted September 21, 2011 Mounted shooting rifle blanks are indeed based on the old 5-in-1 blanks so that they can fit .38-40. .44-40 and .45 Colt weapons. I was told that at the first mounted rifle shoot, someone had a .44-40, so the blanks that would work in a variety of calibers had to be used. The base of the cartridge is the same for all the calibers, but the nose has to be necked down to the .38, meaning there is blow-by when fired in a .44 or .45. The main point here is that this problem was known by the manufacturer, but no warning was given to the customer, i.e. the mounted shooting club that purchased the crimped ammo. So this is a warning for people who buy the crimped blanks, but also a question as to whether the manufacturer should take more responsibility for the damage caused by the extra round going off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Seen #16162 Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I am still puzzled on this happen. With the action closed the next round is below the chamber in the magazine tube. So the case mouth wasn't exposed to the blowback until the fired round was ejected and the unfired round was coming up on the carrier. But you said the fired round was still in the chamber. As you state it would seem to be a go-fast ammo related incident. CMSA matches requires blanks from approved suppliers. Don't know about SASS. Do you have pictures of the blanks your club is using that you can post? You might post this on the mounted shooting wire and let the pros like Expressman look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Was the action still closed on the 3 round (Was the case in the chamber)with the 4 round in the carier ???? Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoneburner Posted September 21, 2011 Author Share Posted September 21, 2011 Yup, just like Jabez Cowboy says-3rd in the chamber, 4th in the carrier, and I was fortunate that the 5th did NOT go off in the mag tube. The ammo was from an approved supplier, but again I don't want to be seen as trying to smear anyone, so I'll keep that info to myself. I've got this on the Mounted Wire as well, but wanted to get a wide range of opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Yes, 5 in 1 blanks will blowby a chambered empty and the flash can set the one on the carrier off. The simple fix is to use a cake of canning wax/parifin and rake the nose of the 5 in 1 over the wax to seal it before you load. It will even help keep the fouling soft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Seen #16162 Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Well I'll be. I learned me something new today Is this problem unique with the 73? Would switching to the Winchester 92 design prevent this from happening? Thanks for the information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roughneck Rod Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 when i shot CMSA and SASS Mounted i switched from a 45LC rifle to a Uberti 44-40 and then to a Marlin 44mag because of the blowback issue. i never had any problems after switching. there was absolutely no blowback from either the 44-40 or the 44mag. i would definitly use wax or bore butter to seal the crimp if i was using a 45LC as other have already stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodine Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I hadn't heard of the 5-1 until today. I love learning something new everyday! What I have learned is I will NOT shoot anything but .45 Colt blank cartridges in a gun chambered for .45 Colt cartridges. Whoever thought that was a good idea in the first place is a bit dangerous I think. That is kinda like a cardinal sin the way I grew up; the right round in the right gun, no exceptions. Especially with a safety issue like this! Covering it with wax is just a quick fix gimmick, and blowed-up guns is serious business. I hope I don't run into any clubs trying to push this stuff off on us! Well, thanks for the schoolin' pards! I now know what to look for and more importantly what to look-out for! Bodine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 I hadn't heard of the 5-1 until today. I love learning something new everyday! What I have learned is I will NOT shoot anything but .45 Colt blank cartridges in a gun chambered for .45 Colt cartridges. Whoever thought that was a good idea in the first place is a bit dangerous I think. That is kinda like a cardinal sin the way I grew up; the right round in the right gun, no exceptions. Especially with a safety issue like this! Covering it with wax is just a quick fix gimmick, and blowed-up guns is serious business. I hope I don't run into any clubs trying to push this stuff off on us! Well, thanks for the schoolin' pards! I now know what to look for and more importantly what to look-out for! Bodine Bodine, These are blank firing guns firing blanks. The reason the brass doesn't seal the chamber is because the pressure without a bullet to plug the bore is too low to even expand the brass. So there is no way it is going to blow up the gun. The 5 in 1 blanks have been around since at least the 1940's. They were developed to work in both the 44-40 & 38-40 leveraction rifles and the 45lc revolvers used in the Western movies of the era. The only safety issue is standing closer than 10 foot in front of one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Bodine, dem blanks is strickly for mounted shootin' and dat's a rich man's game. Us ground pounders never use blanks. The old 5 in 1 blank made famous by the western movie industry would work in 38-40, 44-40, 45 Colt, 44 mag and if I'm not mistaken I do believer also the 45-70 thus the 5 in 1 moniker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 I believe that the 5 in 1 blanks were for 38-40, 44-40, 45 Colt, 44 Colt, and 44 Special. During the heyday of B-Westerns, they hadn't invented the 44 Magnums yet. There is a blow-up danger with the blanks in a rifle if the blanks are leaking powder out of the crimp. The powder can build up in the magazine tube and cause quite an explosion. The cowboy re-enactment group had a member whose rifle exploded like that. It was a Model 66 if I remember right, and when it exploded it blew the magazine tube about 50 yards into a structure. It was reported that all of the remaining blanks in the tube went off (I don't know how many there were.) Since the blanks don't expand to fill the chamber, there is a lot of blow-by back into the action. I don't think that it would matter what kind of rifle it was, you don't want to shoot blanks with a mag tube full of black powder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 I believe that the 5 in 1 blanks were for 38-40, 44-40, 45 Colt, 44 Colt, and 44 Special. During the heyday of B-Westerns, they hadn't invented the 44 Magnums yet. There is a blow-up danger with the blanks in a rifle if the blanks are leaking powder out of the crimp. The powder can build up in the magazine tube and cause quite an explosion. The cowboy re-enactment group had a member whose rifle exploded like that. It was a Model 66 if I remember right, and when it exploded it blew the magazine tube about 50 yards into a structure. It was reported that all of the remaining blanks in the tube went off (I don't know how many there were.) Since the blanks don't expand to fill the chamber, there is a lot of blow-by back into the action. I don't think that it would matter what kind of rifle it was, you don't want to shoot blanks with a mag tube full of black powder! Hadn't heard of that one before but I can see how it can happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodine Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 All due respect gentlemen, but the fact that the original poster has had gun damage, and the fact that there is even a question about blanks leaking powdrer I will stick with what I know best about gun safety. I don't care how long they have been arouund or who uses them, please keep them away from me and mine thank you very much. Bodine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jake1001 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Bodine, dem blanks is strickly for mounted shootin' and dat's a rich man's game. Us ground pounders never use blanks. The old 5 in 1 blank made famous by the western movie industry would work in 38-40, 44-40, 45 Colt, 44 mag and if I'm not mistaken I do believer also the 45-70 thus the 5 in 1 moniker. I believe that the 5 in 1 blanks were for 38-40, 44-40, 45 Colt, 44 Colt, and 44 Special. During the heyday of B-Westerns, they hadn't invented the 44 Magnums yet. The 5 in 1 blanks were named for the five (5) guns they could be fired in. 3 were handguns, Colt SAA 38-40...44-40...45Colt. The other two were rifles chambered for 38-40 and 44-40. They could have been Winchester 1873's or 1892's. They will NOT fit a .44 mag....44 special.....44 Colt or defiantly not a 45.70. The base of a 5 in 1 blank is the same size as the 3 handgun calibers but are too large to fit any .44 cal gun. It is way to small for a 45.70 rifle (dangerous) don't do it. 5 in 1 were a MOVIE staple for years in Westerns, and are still used today. The ones I have are loaded with Black powder and have a cardboard cover with some kind of RED sealer on them. The .44 Mag/spl ones are shorter and rose crimped. Just sayin' Big Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Seen #16162 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 All due respect gentlemen, but the fact that the original poster has had gun damage, and the fact that there is even a question about blanks leaking powdrer I will stick with what I know best about gun safety. I don't care how long they have been arouund or who uses them, please keep them away from me and mine thank you very much. Bodine Pard, There is a certain degree of risk everytime you drop the hammer on a live cartridge, blank, commercial or handload. A friend of mine purchased a new Ruger Vaquero 45 Colt and a box of factory lead Remington ammunition and walked out to the gunshop range to shoot it. One of the rounds bulged one of the chambers. No harm was done other than a ruined brand new gun. Ruger replaced the cylinder and he has not had a problem since. Since the O.P. has choosen not to identified who made the blanks we are left in a lurch. I checked the CMSA approved blanks I have on hand and the crimps are even and tight. I have no worries about shooting them in my 73. That said a little bore butter is cheap insurance along with cleaning the magazine tube once in a while. If you are going to play mounted shooting make sure your club uses approved blanks. I have not see any problems with use of blanks in mounted shooting but have personally witnessed three blown up handguns with the ground pounders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodine Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Pard, There is a certain degree of risk everytime you drop the hammer on a live cartridge, blank, commercial or handload. If you are going to play mounted shooting make sure your club uses approved blanks. I have not see any problems with use of blanks in mounted shooting but have personally witnessed three blown up handguns with the ground pounders. I fully understand this point which is only further enfocment of the cardinal rules of gun safety. DO NOT USE AMMUNITION NOT MADE FOR THE SPECIFIC CALIBER. There is no excuse for knowingly using ammo that is not suited for the gun it is being fired from. I find it really disturbing that folks would brush something like this off as SOP! It might be OK for the movie industry, but out here in the real world if safety isn't the first concern then stay away from me please! Of all the info I have gathered here on this site, this is the most disturbing revelation I have ever seen in relation to guns and shooting. No excuse for accepting ill fitting rounds in any weapon for any reason period. Dang this really blows my mind! Bodine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel-eye Steve SASS #40674 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 I fully understand this point which is only further enfocment of the cardinal rules of gun safety. DO NOT USE AMMUNITION NOT MADE FOR THE SPECIFIC CALIBER. There is no excuse for knowingly using ammo that is not suited for the gun it is being fired from. I find it really disturbing that folks would brush something like this off as SOP! It might be OK for the movie industry, but out here in the real world if safety isn't the first concern then stay away from me please! Of all the info I have gathered here on this site, this is the most disturbing revelation I have ever seen in relation to guns and shooting. No excuse for accepting ill fitting rounds in any weapon for any reason period. Dang this really blows my mind! Bodine Bodine, 5in1s are the blanks that fit those calibers. They are the industry standard. There are issues running blanks through lever action, tube magazine fed rifles that won't allow you to use say a .45 colt case to make a .45 Colt blank. It sounds like most of the problem with this incident has more to due with how the blanks were manufactured rather then the type of case used for the blank. This is more like running a high primer in tube magazine rather then shooting the wrong ammo through your rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roughneck Rod Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 the rifle blanks used in mounted shooting can be used in guns in these calibers 38-40, 44-40, 44mag, and 45LC. the pistol blanks are for 45LC only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I fully understand this point which is only further enfocment of the cardinal rules of gun safety. DO NOT USE AMMUNITION NOT MADE FOR THE SPECIFIC CALIBER. There is no excuse for knowingly using ammo that is not suited for the gun it is being fired from. I find it really disturbing that folks would brush something like this off as SOP! It might be OK for the movie industry, but out here in the real world if safety isn't the first concern then stay away from me please! Of all the info I have gathered here on this site, this is the most disturbing revelation I have ever seen in relation to guns and shooting. No excuse for accepting ill fitting rounds in any weapon for any reason period. Dang this really blows my mind! Bodine Bodine, You might want to stay in your bomb shelter today. I just heard on the news that we may be getting some space junk falling out of the sky today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 The answer is stareing Ya All in da face ,,,,,,,, just use a .38-40 and all is well with da World .... Just give yer blanks a nose first twist into a block on half parafin and half bee's wax, to make sure da crimp doesn't leak ... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shoer 27979 Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I fully understand this point which is only further enfocment of the cardinal rules of gun safety. DO NOT USE AMMUNITION NOT MADE FOR THE SPECIFIC CALIBER. There is no excuse for knowingly using ammo that is not suited for the gun it is being fired from. I find it really disturbing that folks would brush something like this off as SOP! It might be OK for the movie industry, but out here in the real world if safety isn't the first concern then stay away from me please! Of all the info I have gathered here on this site, this is the most disturbing revelation I have ever seen in relation to guns and shooting. No excuse for accepting ill fitting rounds in any weapon for any reason period. Dang this really blows my mind! Bodine Bodine what you fall to see is these 5 in 1 blanks were designed by experts, do you really think that an ammunition manufacturer is going to make 5 in 1 blanks for 70 years if they are not safe. It is no different then dumping loose powder down the barrel of your muzzle loader for your reenactments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuevo Mike & Cinnamon Lucy Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Here at Buffalo Blanks, we have been making 5-1 rifle blanks for a couple of years now and have never had one of our blanks fail in this manner. If someone called me up and said this happened with one of my blanks, I would be very disturbed. I would not pass it off as sh#! happens. My guess is that the blank was not fully crimped closed. We have learned that 5-1 rifle blanks are more difficult to load than the regular pistol blanks. The standard die set necks the brass from .40 cal down to about .35 cal creating a bottle necked case. Then they are star crimped. This causes a lot of compression on the brass and can stop the crimp from closing completely if not adjusted correctly. When we first started loading we were having problems with cases splitting before the crimp opened fully. It took a lot of work to get that to stop, but we seem to have found the fix for that. Properly made 5-1 Rifle blanks are safe for use in any .45 Colt, .44, or 38-40 rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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