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Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129

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26 Knockdowns All must go down,10 pistol,10 Rifle and 6 shotgun.......

Misses maybe made-up with either Rifle or shotgun ..... Target may be shot in any order... Except pistol may not be last gun fired.... Round count is as many as needed,,,

 

Shooter engages P1,P2, P3, P4, P5, P6 (both P6 and R5 go down),P7,P8 (P8 and R10 Fall) P9 & P10 ...

Shooter knocks down the 8 rifle still standing, with 8 rounds, with the remaining 2 in the Rifle drops 2 Shotgun targets ..

Next shooter knocksdown remaining 4 shotgun targets with 4 rounds from his shotgun ....

All targets are down ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, What's the Call ???

 

Both pistol rounds 6 & 8 first strike pistol target before also knocking down rifle targets ....

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Stage directions call for 6 shotgun. Only fired 4. Therefore 2 misses.

Round count is "As many As Needed"

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Well, if I get picky, the instruction was "Misses maybe made-up with either Rifle or shotgun". So the question is, did the shooter miss the two shotgun targets and then knock them down with the rifle shots? It does not sound like it. Or does it even matter since no explicit instruction as to which firearm can be used on which target was stated? :ph34r:

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Is there a trick question in the question? The way I read it they're all down, right? Plus, the shooter didn't run out of ammo, didn't shoot pistols out of order.... what's the catch to even present the question?

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:FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm:

 

Never mind.

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I would say 2 misses.

 

The two rifle rounds fired at the shotgun targets were fired before the shotgun was used.

The shotgun targets should be first be fired at by the shotgun.

Therefore it is the target engaged with improper firearm miss.

If the shooter had missed the shotgun targets (or they didn't fall) then the rifle could be used.

Rifle targets 5 and 10 are of no concern except that they affect the shot count.

Round count as many as needed negates the extra rounds, but they should have been cleared.

 

my 2 cents.

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IF this were a team (I too are slightly discombobulated on that point), it is a NO CALL. IF it were a individual stage, it would be 2 "misses". Stage conventions call for a "shoot-where-they-were" on fallen targets not hit with bullets. Could have made them up if the shooter had fired two SG rounds in their general direction, as they couldn't now be missed as they were already down.

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It seems to me that there is a built-in contradiction in this stage. On the one hand, the round count is stated/written as 10-10-6, or "how ever many rounds are needed," which in this case can be interpreted as; no more than 10 pistol, any number of rifle, and whatever number of shotgun rounds may be required.

 

For example, what if the shooter's first and only shot was a big boom bp round our of their rifle and all the targets fell over from the shock wave. According to the instruction, "whatever number of rounds are required," the shooter could cease fire after that one first round and have one clean and quick stage.

 

Yet, is that the true intention of the stage? I think the wording of instructions needs to tighten up or be prepared to allow this sort of confusing result.

 

Under normal circumstance, the 10-10-6 round count (or more realistically 10, 10+, 6+ round count) would mean 2 misses in this case since only 4 shotgun were fired. However, that slippery wording of, "whatever number of shots needed to get em down," instruction ends up over-riding the round count instruction and allows all sorts of possible unintended results.

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Pards ;

The 10 10 & 6 is the target count, the round count is as many as needed till all targets are down and the pistols can't be the last firearm shot ....

 

What say yee ???

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Pards ;

The 10 10 & 6 is the target count, the round count is as many as needed till all targets are down and the pistols can't be the last firearm shot ....

 

What say yee ???

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

 

So shooter pulls out rifle first, shoots one big bp round that knocks down all targets with the shock wave. Yeh, it most likely would never happen - just speaking hypothetically, but that's what these questions are about - right. Anyway, one shot fired, all targets down, stage over - clean.

 

If we take the over-riding instruction, "..as many as needed," literally, this could happen. Benefit of doubt goes to shooter.

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POssibly, but in that case, the shooter will be called for 10 sec MSV as he'll come to the ULT with unfired rounds left in his long arm magazine and a procedural for "failure to attempt to fire a firearm".... if the targets are down, you have to shoot where they were.

 

Maybe a very short time, but 20 secs added to the raw time.

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I guess you could say two misses and again some could say "Clean". Sounds clean to me cause it's a stage with a P just waiting for someone to call it. With that many if he knocked em all down, he's good. Have fun n use up that ammo. I notice we have a lot of different vocations in this game. Maybe we should try to put an english major into every posse. lol. Ya'll have a great day.

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Poor stage writing, including failure to realize that the rifle may not be used for the last shot (timer detection problems). And failure to call out an alternative method for buckaroos to shoot under, since they are not required to take down knockdowns. And failure to insist, if that is what the writer wanted, that targets falling when not shot at needed to be shot even if down. Plate racks do this all the time.

 

As with the others, I'm not sure what the real, underlying question is here. Maybe if you laid out all the facts and removed this from our mystery reading list?

 

Good luck, GJ

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26 Knockdowns All must go down,10 pistol,10 Rifle and 6 shotgun.......

Misses maybe made-up with either Rifle or shotgun ..... Target may be shot in any order... Except pistol may not be last gun fired.... Round count is as many as needed,,,

 

Shooter engages P1,P2, P3, P4, P5, P6 (both P6 and R5 go down),P7,P8 (P8 and R10 Fall) P9 & P10 ...

Shooter knocks down the 8 rifle still standing, with 8 rounds, with the remaining 2 in the Rifle drops 2 Shotgun targets ..

Next shooter knocksdown remaining 4 shotgun targets with 4 rounds from his shotgun ....

All targets are down ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, What's the Call ???

 

Both pistol rounds 6 & 8 first strike pistol target before also knocking down rifle targets ....

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

Interesting.

 

Here is my 2cents worth.

 

If the pistol bullet hit both P6 & R5 then one bullet was all that was needed to satisfy engagement for those two targets. Like wise if P8 bullet hit both P8 & R10, that too is satisfied. Then no call and I would give a clean stage with only 4 SG rounds being fired.

 

On the flip side, if the two pistol bullet(s) did not hit both P6 & r5 and P8 & R10, then there would be two misses. He would have had to at least fired a round (sg or rifle down range to satisfy the engagement of the targets that had gone down w/o being hit(wind, bird poo, vibration from plate rack and such doesn't count).

 

Blastmaster

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No call.

 

As a shooter, this sounds like a fun stage, however from a scoring perspective this isn't a good stage to have at a state or above level match. Too much potential for scoring controversies.

 

Given the number of targets and the likilhood that at least some of them would be close together, shooting a 20" cylinder bored 10 gauge with 1.5 oz loads I would reasonably expect to get multiple targets falling with each shell, shoot the pistols and then dump the rifle rounds into the berm as fast as safely possible. I can see this moving me up in rank points to a stage score much higher then would be expected given my equipment, shooting style (frontiersman) and skill relative to the really fast shooters in this sport.

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Sounds like fun.

 

Normally, the round count indicates the min number of rounds to be fired, but the instructions specifically say "Round count is as many as needed." So that means to me there is no minimum and no maximum number of rounds to be fired.

 

Since in two cases, the fired round took out two targets, the instructions say no sequence except the pistol cannot be last, I'd call it clean. In this case, it was not target failure (where you shoot where it was). The stage instructions leave it open (and maybe encourage) shooter to take down more than one target with a shot.

 

The stage conventions clarify that buckaroos only need to hit the targets - not knock them down, so no issue there.

 

If a gun was left loaded at the end, a pistol could be holstered as long as the round was not under the hammer. And the rifle could be made safe on the line.

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Sounds like fun.

 

Normally, the round count indicates the min number of rounds to be fired, but the instructions specifically say "Round count is as many as needed." So that means to me there is no minimum and no maximum number of rounds to be fired.

 

Since in two cases, the fired round took out two targets, the instructions say no sequence except the pistol cannot be last, I'd call it clean. In this case, it was not target failure (where you shoot where it was). The stage instructions leave it open (and maybe encourage) shooter to take down more than one target with a shot.

 

The stage conventions clarify that buckaroos only need to hit the targets - not knock them down, so no issue there.

 

If a gun was left loaded at the end, a pistol could be holstered as long as the round was not under the hammer. And the rifle could be made safe on the line.

Howdy Marauder;

You get the brass ring,,, that was indeed the intent of the stage to allow a lot of latitude in how the shooer wanted to shoot the stage .... 79 of 80 shooters saw it that way ( when poled at the day two saftey meeting ) but one shooter was very sure that it wasn't "Fair" that two targets could be dumped with one round (and not require expending the extra rounds into the dirt ) ... As an asside Both buckaroos managed to take down all the targets with 26 rounds each ...

 

Marauder , Pard could I add your statements to the stage instructions as a means of helping all understand ???

If we use this stage again next year ...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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