Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 ...and I choose "A"...if the shooter makes the wrong choice (unassisted) there is NO reshoot for "failure to coach" if the T/O and/or spotters don't know the right answer.[/color] If the T/O and spotters don't know, how does anyone know if the shooter made the wrong choice? The way I'm looking at it, no P, no reshoot. If I was the T/O and didn't know, I wouldn't be polling 3 spotters until after the string was complete. Three people shouting possibly 3 different answers adds to the confusion. If at least 2 spotters agree on a P, he gets a P, but they need to agree on where he messed up. Otherwise, no P. Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Just because the TO and or spotters didn't SAY, doesn't mean they don't KNOW. And in the middle of a string interrupted it might not be obvious which target is next, but when the shooter finishes on the wrong target, it is obvious that they earned a P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 If the T/O and/or spotters don't know, how does anyone know if the shooter made the wrong choice? The way I'm looking at it, no P, no reshoot. IF the T/O and/or spotters are counting shots fired...and the shooter fires the correct number of rounds but ends up on the WRONG target, it should be fairly easy to determine whether the targets were engaged in the proper manner. It often happens that one or more spotters are too far away to assist in coaching the shooter as to which target to engage after the malfunction...either one of them could call the "P" if the shooter continued on the wrong target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 IF the T/O and/or spotters are counting shots fired...and the shooter fires the correct number of rounds but ends up on the WRONG target, it should be fairly easy to determine whether the targets were engaged in proper manner. It often happens that that one or more spotters are too far away to assist in coaching the shooter as to which target to engage after the malfunction...either one of them could call the "P" if the shooter continued on the wrong target. You da man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bud #15821 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 C. Every day, all day long. Doesn't hurt anyone and, if the spotters yell out an answer that's wrong, the shooter eats the P as well as all the time spent clearing the jam. I've seen it happen too many times to let my spotters ruin some shooter's day. Badlands Bud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nashville Frank, SASS # 49204 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 I guess A is correct. But in the heat I tend to end up with C. I think the reason is that I usually get it right, and in a split of a sec I usually try to help out whenever a shooter asks. But when wrong, I don`t have a problem with giving the shooter a reshoot. Some will probably be able to argue about this being unfair, but the next time it could be you being saved. My problem with A is that some TOs are so afraid to give improper coaching that they NEVER coach. I belive that is a bigger concern. Just for the fun of it, I usually attend about 7 matches a year. I usually time a third of the posse in average. Thats about 5 shooters times 7 matches times 10 stages times 3 years? since the proper/improper rule came out. Thats close to 1000 stages. And I can only remember that I gave reshoots because of improper coaching about 3 times....... I guess I`m sticking with C the next time as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted September 17, 2011 Author Share Posted September 17, 2011 Sorry Lads. Wyatt and a few others were correct. A TO must first, do no harm. You should know the shot count and if you do not then you should give an answer. If the TO is wrong, the worst that happens is a reshoot. If the TO fails to answer a question he should know and plays dumb, the shooter is penalized. Give it your best guess with conviction and assist the shooter through the stage. Very Best Regards, BJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Wyatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stump Water Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 Sorry Lads. Wyatt and a few others were correct. A TO must first, do no harm. You should know the shot count and if you do not then you should give an answer. If the TO is wrong, the worst that happens is a reshoot. If the TO fails to answer a question he should know and plays dumb, the shooter is penalized. Give it your best guess with conviction and assist the shooter through the stage. Monday morning quarterbacking and Wire TOing sure makes it seem easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 Excellent thread learned a couple things from it. regards AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WymoreWrangler SASS 46187L Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 The timer is suppose to be watching the muzzle and not the targets, if you can watch both, my hat is off to you. So my answer would honestly be I don't know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 Sorry Lads. Wyatt and a few others were correct. A TO must first, do no harm. You should know the shot count and if you do not then you should give an answer. If the TO is wrong, the worst that happens is a reshoot. If the TO fails to answer a question he should know and plays dumb, the shooter is penalized. Give it your best guess with conviction and assist the shooter through the stage. Very Best Regards, BJT Going to disagree with you on this one partner. My not knowing what the shooter's next target is not causing the shooter any harm. Although I will know the shot count, unless I forgot in the 15 seconds I was "assisting" the shooter, I may not know which target the shooter started on. I might but I might not. I wouldn't want someone to think I intentionally gave a shooter bad advice to get the shooter a re-shoot. Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted September 19, 2011 Author Share Posted September 19, 2011 So you would rather hang him out to dry rather than have some one fling unfounded slurs on your name? Some might call that cowardly....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stump Water Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Heck... next time someone's having a bad stage I'll just trip him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Heck... next time someone's having a bad stage I'll just trip him. Sounds like a Plan! Stan Hey that rhymes.....LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 A The T.O. should indeed help the shooter safely through the course of fire. He or she is not suppose to cheat for the shooter by just giving him a target to shoot... and thus, providing protection from a "P" in the form of a reshoot if a call is made. If you don't know which target is next then say "I don't know", it does NOT mean that you were not paying attention, the T.O. has plenty to do, and will not always remember everything. You help the shooter if you can... you DO NOT make something up. I've seen that type of stuff with some of the Team Shooting that went on... where a spotter would yell something wrong in order to supply the shooter with reason for a reshoot. IMO... it is CHEATING if it is done on purpose. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 So you would rather hang him out to dry rather than have some one fling unfounded slurs on your name? Some might call that cowardly....... I can think of other words. If coward is the word you choose, so be it. Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 ...and besides...I got my re-shoot when the TO started helping me work on my rifle...unless he's a CERTIFIED gunsmith. Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Agate Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 C. Every day, all day long. Doesn't hurt anyone and, if the spotters yell out an answer that's wrong, the shooter eats the P as well as all the time spent clearing the jam. I've seen it happen too many times to let my spotters ruin some shooter's day. Badlands Bud I'm with you Bud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Winchester Jack, SASS #70195 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 RO I page 5 Coaching is not considered RO interference and, therefore, will never be grounds for a re-shoot. RO I page 22 Proper coaching or no coaching at all is not considered RO Interference and therefore will never be grounds for a reshoot/restart. okay, how about this: Shooter pulls first pistol and fires 5 rounds, re-holsters and pulls second pistol for 5 more rounds, re-holsters second pistol, T/O says you only fired 4 rounds from second pistol so you pull it out and proceed show it is empty. T/O apologizes and offers you a re-shoot. I have had this happen several times. T/O's arent perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 ...and besides...I got my re-shoot when the TO started helping me work on my rifle...unless he's a CERTIFIED gunsmith. Fillmore Certified by who? a credited school? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtwater Doc 17941 Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Count out 3 shots on the targets and resume firing on the next. This depends on the details of the scenario..if it states start on the Left and commence sweep, then the direction is clear. If not shooter must continue as best he can and take any associated penalties. Just my opinion... DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Just happend to me as a TO with a stove up shooter who was safe, but had trouble walking. Worked his share anyway, and when his rifle gave him fits, he asked for help. Every body lost track of where he was and we told him "start on 3". He wound up on the wrong target. Clean - no P was the call. Not sure it would have changed his standing, but a re-shoot would have been tough on him. I know life's not fair, but this was a case of common sense/compassion. CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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