Lead Level

[Hoosegow Hank #21444]

Just got back from the Dr for my normal checkup. He had the blood work done a couple of weeks ago so he would have it when I came in. I had asked him to do a lead level test as I mold my own bullets and also melt down wheel weights to start with. My lead level was 17 which 4.6 is max on the normal scale. Now I have to have my blood cleaned out, not sure just how that is done, but will see. I have read some of the symptoms of high lead level and it pretty much fits me to a tee. If you mold your own bullets, it might be a good thing to have your Dr run a lead level test.

 

HH

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

You will get most of the lead from your tumbler dust. Always wear a mask.

Have an exhaust fan just above where I cast.

Respectfully,

LG

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Doctors have a large variation in what lead level is considered abnormal, and when to start treatment, and most primary care physicians don't get it right. Your level is not really all that high, and you SHOULD consider asking to see a heavy-metal specialist before someone starts any chemical (chelation, given by way of IV "transfusions") treatment on you.

 

Many folks here have had higher blood-lead levels and "cured themselves" by paying more attention to where "lead in the air" might be coming from, as that is the usual suspect. Shoot at any indoor ranges? RO a lot? Cast without ventilation? Wash well after shooting or loading, especially facial hair, before eating or drinking? All common causes of higher than desired lead levels, almost all can be cured much cheaper than chemical lead extraction.

 

Not saying you don't have a problem, but you might want to make sure there is a problem, first.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

Almost All doctors do not do lead level blood tests. When they see the results they go in to panic mode.

 

17 is above normal for a person who does not handle any lead at all.

 

OHSA working lead level for a worker in a lead job can be as high as 35 before a report has to be take. The blood cleaning is required at 40 or 45 and the worker must be removed from the lead environment.

 

The most use lead removing requires IV that are taken over as much as a year. The person must also be taken away from any source of lead totally. No more reloading or shooting.

 

You have to do some reading. Your doctor will go by the Center for Disease Control published minimum standards for children under 12. Not the adult numbers.

 

Do research on OSHA lead level minimums for workers.

 

I just went through this with my doctor at the VA. I got seven calls from the doctors there demanding I had to come in for treatment. I sent them OSHA data and I haven't heard back from them. I do commercial bullet casting and reloading. My level is a bit higher than your at 27 but well under OSHA concern numbers. Mine is going down as I am eating the veggies that help reduce the blood levels. And I have changed the way I hand casting.

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

I cast bullets for a living(such as it is) and had my level checked for a couple of years every 6 months. It was at 13 when I started putting polishing paste in my tumbler to cut down on dust and it went down to 8. Last I checked it was 6. My doctor will no longer test test me that often as he said I was well within normal range and he can't justify the cost to my insurance plan. He said he wasn't even going to worry too much about it until I hit 20. Last I checked 30 was considered very high. Might want to get a second opinion 'cause from what I have heard the chelation isn't all that good for you either.

[Cypress Sun]

Here is a thread from July about lead level.......Lead level thread on Sass wire

 

I personally don't think a 17 is cause for too much concern, but I'm no doctor. I suggest you do MUCH MORE research before treatments. Simple precautions can be taken to reduce your lead exposure, thereby reducing your blood lead level.

 

C.S.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Do your own research on what acceptable lead levels are in your blood. A few years ago I had mine checked and the doctor went ballistic that my levels were way too high. Did my own research and found that most doctors are used to treating children and know what is safe for them. As we grow older our blood lead levels go up and what is acceptable also goes up every year. Even OSHA levels are set darn low as they are set to warn folks before any damage could occur and are for adults of all ages.

[Go West]

Keep your tumbling media damp to keep the dust down. Wash your hands frequently when you handle components or loaded rounds. Do not eat or smoke without washing hands if you've handled components or tumbled brass. Your lead levels should come down if you follow this, it worked for me.

[El Muerto Negro]

Also wash your hands with cold water after you shoot cast load etc.

El Muerto Negro

[Yusta B.]

I reload & cast also. A year & 1/2 ago mine was 34. I started wearing a GOOD mask, using better ventilation, paying much more heed to washing up well before eating & 6 months later it was 15.

[Matthew Duncan]

Last May when I went in for my annual 10 year physcall I asked for a lead test. It came back at 10 and Doctor said WOW!

 

Then I googled and 10 is very high....for a adolessent! 10 is low for a geezer my age.

 

Now I wear gloves when taking brass out of the tumbler. I haven't cast for over 2 years.

[John Boy]

Back on the thread that Cypress linked to, my level was 12 with max of 10 stated on blood test results. There is a statue in NJ ... any results above 10 has to be reported to the NJ Dept of Health by the testing lab. Yep, I got a call. That was my June lead level

 

I had a lead blood test done again last week ... I'm at 10 mcg/dl (milligrams per deciliter) now.

States on the Test Results: Blood lead levels in the range of 5-9 mcg/dl have been associated to adverse health effects in children aged 6 years and younger

Not a word on the report about adults!

Here's what the CDC has to say ... http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5608a1.htm

And Wikipedia for treatment ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation_therapy

And Quackwatch related to Chelation Therapy ... http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chelation.html

 

Anyway, I wear Nitrile gloves now handling lead and reloading. And a mask when casting though ventilation is good and only vapors are from the flux. You should start worrying about lead poisoning while casting, if the pot temperature reaches ... Boiling Point: 2022 K (1749°C or 3180°F)

[Three Foot Johnson]

<--- Worked 23 years at a lead smelter - 17 is nothing. I very, very seldom tested below ~25, and nothing is there rong wiht me very much tod ay the place sinse shut ten years ago.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

HH,

 

First, don't freak out. Take a deep breath.

 

A year ago mine was 34. Now it's 15. I did have Chelation done, specifically 20 rapid treatments about twice a week. The Chelation rapid theropy is more like a shot, but it is in I.V. form. You have to take pills everyday and load up on them on treatment day. And, it's expensive. The treatments were only $60.00 each, but all the tests were about $1,000.00 before I could start them.

 

If mine had been 17 I wouldn't have worried so much because there are things that you can do without seeking medical treatment. Many have been covered in this thread already. Tumbling media is most likely the worst exposure you have unless you shoot in an indoor range (like I did and still do).

 

Look, wear rubber gloves when you reload or handle lead or polishing media. Also wear a good mask (3M makes masks for welders for heavy metals and you can buy them in a safety supply store) when separating your polished brass from the media. Also wear the rubber gloves when you clean your guns and don't drink, smoke, or eat in your cleaning area. If you like to run the timer a lot, stop. Find another job you like to do, but exposing yourself to everyone's smoke is not a good thing for anybody.

 

I would bet that if you were more aware of what you were exposing yourself to, and taking steps to limit that exposure, your lead level will drop over the next year or so.

[Subdeacon Joe]

I had about that level several years ago. I did some research on it. Basically under 10 is normal, but you don't start seeing any problems until the level is over 40.

 

Keep your hands away from your face until you have washed them well after shooting. Don't lick your lips while shooting. Your hands will pick up lead from the primers.

 

I looked at what I was doing, mostly target practice. I would bring by target back after every string, take a pen out of my shirt pocket, take the cap off with my teeth, mark my target, and then as I contemplated each shot on paper I would be pulling at my lower lip or stroking my mustache. When I realized what I was doing I stopped all of those habits, started wearing those blue gloves when I cleaned my guns (so that the stuff didn't get absorbed through the skin), and in a month my BLL had dropped from about 17 to 8.

[THE CALHOUN COUNTY BA]

Just got back from the Dr for my normal checkup. He had the blood work done a couple of weeks ago so he would have it when I came in. I had asked him to do a lead level test as I mold my own bullets and also melt down wheel weights to start with. My lead level was 17 which 4.6 is max on the normal scale. Now I have to have my blood cleaned out, not sure just how that is done, but will see. I have read some of the symptoms of high lead level and it pretty much fits me to a tee. If you mold your own bullets, it might be a good thing to have your Dr run a lead level test.

 

HH

Also primers are a big problem.

I take my tumbler outside to emty.

17 is well under what osha says is bad.

See Ya CCBA

[Sweetwater]

I was tested in November because my husband and I want to start a family. My level was a 20. I stopped shooting immediately and, as of last week, my level is 3. That was cold turkey... I haven't even touched a gun since last year. It's not an ideal situation, but it was a choice made based on where we are in our lives. I did not want chelation and was encouraged by other shooters who said they got their levels down by staying off the range for a few months.

[Oliver Loving]

Almost All doctors do not do lead level blood tests. When they see the results they go in to panic mode.

 

17 is above normal for a person who does not handle any lead at all.

 

OHSA working lead level for a worker in a lead job can be as high as 35 before a report has to be take. The blood cleaning is required at 40 or 45 and the worker must be removed from the lead environment.

 

The most use lead removing requires IV that are taken over as much as a year. The person must also be taken away from any source of lead totally. No more reloading or shooting.

 

You have to do some reading. Your doctor will go by the Center for Disease Control published minimum standards for children under 12. Not the adult numbers.

 

Do research on OSHA lead level minimums for workers.

 

I just went through this with my doctor at the VA. I got seven calls from the doctors there demanding I had to come in for treatment. I sent them OSHA data and I haven't heard back from them. I do commercial bullet casting and reloading. My level is a bit higher than your at 27 but well under OSHA concern numbers. Mine is going down as I am eating the veggies that help reduce the blood levels. And I have changed the way I hand casting.

 

 

Thanks Cliff: That is good information. Is the information in 29CFR1910? I cast outdoors but may want to install a vented hood.

 

Oliver

[Hoosegow Hank #21444]

Cliff Hanger, you mentioned eating a lot of vegies. Any particular kind or just all vegies?

[Badlands Beady]

Question: When you talk about reloading and tumbling, how much reloading and tumbling are we talking about? I plan to load ~2,000 rounds over the winter, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to give up on casting (it's just not something I like to do). I've got a hunch this is considerably less than what you-all are talking about. Do I need to even think about lead levels?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Question: When you talk about reloading and tumbling, how much reloading and tumbling are we talking about? I plan to load ~2,000 rounds over the winter, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to give up on casting (it's just not something I like to do). I've got a hunch this is considerably less than what you-all are talking about. Do I need to even think about lead levels?

It don't take much

Re-read my 1st post.

I had the air tested and wipes done.

My wife has a Masters in industrial Safety. She worked, at the time the tests were made for NASA and had access to ALL the "tools" needed for testing.

The "dust" from my Dillon case cleaner was the worst with lead levels.WEAR A MASK!

Melting pot with a exhaust fan above it was good to go.

No food ever in the area where you do these tasks.

Cheers,

LG

[Ugly, SASS #18106]

I have found that putting a fabric softener sheet in my tumbler really cuts down on the dust; a mask is good too. Be sure to wash your hands with cold water after shooting, handling brass, primers, bullets and just shooting in general. Like stated previously, don't wipe your mouth, beard, or hair and don't eat or drink in enclosed areas where you are shooting.

[Noz]

I saw a thread about lead levels a few years back. I asked my doctor about a lead test. He quizzed me about my lead exposure and told me if I was a child he would recommend a test but at my age it would be of no value.

[Three Foot Johnson]

A year ago mine was 34. Now it's 15. I did have Chelation done, specifically 20 rapid treatments about twice a week.

We were always warned not to undergo chelation therapy, as lead has a very sharp, angular structure and we told that chelation would cause permanent and irreversible damage to the kidneys after only a couple treatments. This is ten year old, second hand information from the plant OSHA liaison back then, and I have never personally researched it, so who knows.

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

Answers to a coulpe of questions.

 

What veggies do I eat to help reduce blood lead level?

 

I like all veggies.

I have one or two of the following daily;

Broccoli, Asparagus, Cabbage, Potatoes, and Lettuce.

 

===From Article on what foods to lower lead in blood.=================

 

Healthy Foods to Fight Lead

Foods High in Calcium

Milk

Yogurt

Low-fat cheese

Tofu

Low-fat cottage cheese

Evaporated milk

Foods made with milk; including soups, custards, and puddings

Powdered milk

 

Foods High in Iron

Lean red meat

Low-fat pork

Dried beans and peas

Raisins

Iron fortified cereal

Iron fortified infant formula

Breast milk

 

Foods High in Vitamin C

Oranges/Orange juice

Grapefruit/Grapefruit juice

Dark green, leafy vegetables

Potatoes cooked in the skin

Broccoli

Cabbage

Strawberries

 

 

A well-balanced diet is very important. Meals high in fats and oils are not good because they can help the body absorb lead. Eating foods that are rich in calcium and iron allow the body to absorb less lead. Eating foods with Vitamin C helps increase the amount of iron in the blood. Eating a variety of foods as part of a well-balanced diet helps a child grow up healthy and strong.

 

---Notice that almost all articles refer to levels in children and not adults------

------------

How much reloading and tumbling are we talking about?

 

I have 4 tumblers that run 3 hours, 6 days a week. I do have them on a mechanical timer. This way I can turn them on when I leave the shop for the day. I come in the next day a the brass is ready and any dust has settled. I use a damp old rag to wipe down bench surfaces. I then wrap it around a broom and wet mop of the floor. I use a damp polish to keep the dust down from the tumblers. I reload an average of 2000 to 2500 rounds every day.

 

My shop is well ventilated. It is 13'x13' square. It has a door on one side and a 3'x3' window opening on the other. The casting machine is under the window. Just outside the door I have a very large squirrel cage fan. Unit is 4'x4'. When the casting machine is on, so is the fan. It also runs while I am working when the weather is warm.

 

Basically I handle lead and brass every day for a minimum of 4 to 5 hours.

 

I do not eat, answer the phone, touch my face or even go to the toilet until I wash my hands with cold water and soap. Warm or hot water opens your skin pours and allows for better absorption of lead in to your body. I probably should use a mask.

 

============

Here is a line from a long science article on lead levels in India.

 

"It was estimated that average daily lead intake through diet was about 114 microg/day for adults and 50 microg/day in children; tolerable limit is 250 microg/day for adults and 90 microg/day for children."

[John Boy]

CH, Thanks ... An informative and educational post on the foods. I tried to find the same info by browsing - NADA. It's now printed and will go on the refrigerator

Presume breast milk is for infants and adults would be out of the question

[Hoosegow Hank #21444]

Cliff Hanger, thanks and to the rest who have answered my post thanks as well. I learned a lot from the differnts posts and now know that I am not in such bad shape. It kinda scared me when the Dr said my lead level was off the scale at 17. After reading the many posts on the subject, and doing some online research, 17 is not so bad. I just need to be more aware of how I handle my molding bullets and cleaning my brass. I also forgot to mention I shoot the Holy Black, real stuff, not substitutes. It probably has added to the problem since I breathe it alot. Thanks guys for the information.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Cliff Hanger, thanks and to the rest who have answered my post thanks as well. I learned a lot from the differnts posts and now know that I am not in such bad shape. It kinda scared me when the Dr said my lead level was off the scale at 17. After reading the many posts on the subject, and doing some online research, 17 is not so bad. I just need to be more aware of how I handle my molding bullets and cleaning my brass. I also forgot to mention I shoot the Holy Black, real stuff, not substitutes. It probably has added to the problem since I breathe it alot. Thanks guys for the information.

 

BP or smokeless, the propellant itself has no appreciable lead content. The solvents used for cleaning BP guns are much less "active" and have less capability of causing absorption of any lead cleaned from the gun than the organic solvents in smokeless solvents. The same primers are used for either type of powder. Leading in the bore is much less using BP. You breathe the combustion products from BP or smokeless loads just the same, but smokeless combustion products are much less visible (thus more "insidious"). Unless you are carrying your percussion balls in your mouth or ripping open paper cartridges with your teeth, I see no increased likelihood of lead exposure with BP as compared to smokeless. Just because your hands get dirty (from carbon), there's no increased lead exposure that I would see. In fact, you are probably more inclined to wash up well after shooting than the Wrangler shooting next to you.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Cypress Sun]

Hank

 

You can usually get some good info concerning health related issues here on the wire. When it comes to health, the folks here on the wire are like a big caring family. The rest of the time they are like family also.......just kind of bickering sometimes.

 

Speaking of family, tell my brother, Angus McNasty, hello for me at your next match if you would.

 

Sun

[John Boy]

I shoot the Holy Black, real stuff, not substitutes. It probably has added to the problem since I breathe it alot.

Hank, original gun powder gases are primarily potassium bicarbonate and sulfide. One heck of a lot safer than single and double base smokeless gases but they and BP don't contain any free born lead particles that one would inhale. IMO, handling the lead bullets and ingots while reloading and casting are the primary cause of excessive lead blood levels ... so buy a box of Nitrile gloves at Harbor Freight

[Fordyce Beals]

John Boy said

 

"handling the lead bullets and ingots while reloading and casting are the primary cause of excessive lead blood levels "

 

for a 10 10 4+ stage lead down range is 20 times 150 grain bullet plus 5 ounces of shotgun or about .74 pounds of lead per shooter per stage. For a 200 shooter match of 12 stages that’s 2400 stages times .74 pounds or 1778 pounds of lead (turned in to dust on steel target impact) on the bays. That’s where I see the lead has the biggest chance to get into my blood.

 

Fordyce (that shoots 136 grain lead balls and 250 grain 45's and 1 oz. shot shells)

[Hoosegow Hank #21444]

Cyrpress Sun, Shot with Angus last weekend and smoked up his nostrils, he was running the clock. We had a hoot. Lots of smoke and fire and when them full load shells went off, he backed up a couple of steps.

[Samuel "Doc" Eells]

Last May when I went in for my annual 10 year physcall I asked for a lead test. It came back at 10 and Doctor said WOW!

 

Then I googled and 10 is very high....for a adolessent! 10 is low for a geezer my age.

 

Now I wear gloves when taking brass out of the tumbler. I haven't cast for over 2 years.

As Mr. Duncan said, 17 aint all that bad. As my hemotologist told me, as long as you don't stay at that level for a really long time. My level made it to 39.8 a year ago. He said that was where he started to get concerned. I have been taking calcium and iron tablets every day since and my levels are down to 17 now. Your gonna live, tell your ol lady not to start counting the life insurance cash yet!

[John Boy]

Beals, thank for doing the math ... I was too lazy to do it.

In my case, I've cast my own lead bullets and reloaded since about 1965. Presently my ingot inventory is over 1600 lbs. My bullet inventory for all my non jacket firearms is 7600+ and I have 6 cases of shot shell reloads under the work bench

Add CAS since 2001 for 1-2 matches a month, plus weekly & monthly Schuetzen matches, plus all my BPCR long range and over the years skeet and trap shooting ... deems a lot of Pb that I've been exposed to!

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

Just got back from the Dr for my normal checkup. He had the blood work done a couple of weeks ago so he would have it when I came in. I had asked him to do a lead level test as I mold my own bullets and also melt down wheel weights to start with. My lead level was 17 which 4.6 is max on the normal scale. Now I have to have my blood cleaned out, not sure just how that is done, but will see. I have read some of the symptoms of high lead level and it pretty much fits me to a tee. If you mold your own bullets, it might be a good thing to have your Dr run a lead level test.

 

HH

 

I would ask to see a specialist prior to chelation therapy. Your levels were in the "normal" range 40 years ago before they took the lead out of gasoline. Children are much more sensitive. You level in a 6yr old child might cause permanent damage. My doc got concerned when I hit 42, so he sent me to the big university hospital with a world renowned lead specialist. Chelation is very hard on your body. Time and clean air will most often do the job. He won't chelate under 70 unless it's been there a long time. The 2 ways we get lead are by inhalation (think tumbler) and ingestion. Wash your hands before you eat, and get a very good mask. The typical paper ones will not filter lead. Good advice has been given about keeping the dust from the tumbler down. My level dropped when I moved the tumbler to the garage and added cleaning liquids to the mix.

 

Be concerned, but don't overreact.

 

CR