McCandless Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I recently went to my local FFL to handle a transfer for me. What used to be is, they would just send out a signed copy of the license, or fax it, if the receiver had a fax. never asked if it was a private sale or a business. It's been a while, but now they won't send a signed copy of their FFL anymore. They will FAX a copy to another dealer, or they will give my private seller their business card, with the BATF's FFL EZ-check web address on the back, with the dealer's partial number to plug in on the site. My dealer said that would give my seller all the information he needs. They want my business, even if it's for a transfer. That's not it. Just say's its because of possible fraud, if someone gets hold of their license. *edit... with a scanner/printer and a computer, I can see how fraud could become real easy... if the shipping party doesn't check the BATF site...* My question is: Is this the usual now? As a C&R FFL holder, is this what I should be doing when purchasing from a private party by mail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 It is not unusual these days. Some dealers will only go FFL to FFL to stay safe. I fax or e-mail a copy of my C&R license to sellers rather than mail a copy with an original signature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOCBRAZOS, SASS#18033L Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 My dealer will give me all the signed FFL's I want. The only place another dealer can send a gun to is the Address on the Liscense. He really don't care how many guns the brown truck brings to his door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Depends on the dealer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I recently went to my local FFL to handle a transfer for me. What used to be is, they would just send out a signed copy of the license, or fax it, if the receiver had a fax. never asked if it was a private sale or a business. It's been a while, but now they won't send a signed copy of their FFL anymore. They will FAX a copy to another dealer, or they will give my private seller their business card, with the BATF's FFL EZ-check web address on the back, with the dealer's partial number to plug in on the site. My dealer said that would give my seller all the information he needs. They want my business, even if it's for a transfer. That's not it. Just say's its because of possible fraud, if someone gets hold of their license. *edit... with a scanner/printer and a computer, I can see how fraud could become real easy... if the shipping party doesn't check the BATF site...* My question is: Is this the usual now? As a C&R FFL holder, is this what I should be doing when purchasing from a private party by mail? It may be a state law but it's not federal law. I do know some dealer won't send hard copies anymore. I really don't understand the logic because the faxed or emailed copy can just as easily be used to forge an address change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Interesting, beings that a fax or e-mail copy does not have an original ink signature on it. It could be a transplanted signature from something else. Year ago I did contract work that was Red Lined. You had to sign your name in black ink over an inked straight red line. If both were not there, it was not accepted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Interesting, beings that a fax or e-mail copy does not have an original ink signature on it. It could be a transplanted signature from something else. Year ago I did contract work that was Red Lined. You had to sign your name in black ink over an inked straight red line. If both were not there, it was not accepted. The signature means nothing. The most important part is the premises address. If that's forged the gun can be rerouted. I accept email or faxed copied but I also go to the ATF FFL Ez-check site to verify and I make a copy of the verification to staple to the FFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Red OToole, #48939 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I'm one of those dealers that will only send my FFL to another dealer. This is on advice of the ATF. The reason they give is possible fraud. I know it is possible because fraud was attempted on my license. Let me tell you, it's quite disconcerting to have to answer questions from the ATF over a possible fraud. So, their advice makes perfect sense to me. A non-dealer has all the information they require to ship a firearm off of the ATF EZ-Chek website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCandless Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 I'm one of those dealers that will only send my FFL to another dealer. This is on advice of the ATF. The reason they give is possible fraud. I know it is possible because fraud was attempted on my license. Let me tell you, it's quite disconcerting to have to answer questions from the ATF over a possible fraud. So, their advice makes perfect sense to me. A non-dealer has all the information they require to ship a firearm off of the ATF EZ-Chek website. Thanks! In light of that, this makes sense. I do appreciate y'all taking the time to reply. McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 Life Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I am an FFL/Class III Dealer Irish Red and I are definitely on the same page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 One of the folks that I was buying a rifle from wanted my FFLs license No. Called FFL, they would not give it to me. Luckily I had a receipt from another transfer and was able to get on the ATF info site and find them. Sent E-mail with partial # to seller and the link to ATF check site. My dealer did ask the seller (not an FFL) to send copy of Drivers License in box with rifle. Got the rifle so everything must have worked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 The FFL dealer does not have to send his FFL to a private seller if he doesn't want to. Most dealers in this area only ship via/FFL to FFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I presume there are variations on the transfer process ... My FFL holder gives me his FFL, signed and marked "File Copy". I scanned it and then send to whomever as an attachment in an email Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 Life Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I presume there are variations on the transfer process ... My FFL holder gives me his FFL, signed and marked "File Copy". I scanned it and then send to whomever as an attachment in an email No there aren't..NO Variations on Federal Transfer Procedures.Period.Only the FFL Holder and his employees of record are allowed to use an FFL License. ATF issues FFL's and purely Federal, no variation from state to state;Some states have additional state regs, but FFL Transfers of ownership using a Form 4473 is incontrovertible.A Non-Licensee not employed by the FFL Holder can not use an FFL's license under any situation.I recently attended an ATF seminar in Reno and this issue was thoroughly covered.simply put, it is not allowed under any circumstances.Period.It is a violation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I presume there are variations on the transfer process ... My FFL holder gives me his FFL, signed and marked "File Copy". I scanned it and then send to whomever as an attachment in an email There are variations from company to company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 Life Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 There are variations from company to company. Thanks Nate You stated the issue quite accurately and succinctly! Folks,Just read between Nate's words and you'll get the message! I do have a bad habit of being too direct at times but i do stand behind my previous reply as it is correct! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Thanks Nate You stated the issue quite accurately and succinctly! Folks,Just read between Nate's words and you'll get the message! I do have a bad habit of being too direct at times but i do stand behind my previous reply as it is correct! Message received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Thanks Nate You stated the issue quite accurately and succinctly! Folks,Just read between Nate's words and you'll get the message! I do have a bad habit of being too direct at times but i do stand behind my previous reply as it is correct! I think there's probably differences with the local ATF inspectors as well. (or maybe its just a rule change. I just can't find it in any of the rules) This sending hard copy FFL's subject came up years ago so I called my local inspector about. He just said to boldly mark it as file copy only. (I've had the same inspector for the last 20 years) The reason I called him is unlike dealers that just sell guns a gunsmith has to receive the gun from his customer in order to do the work. Many times the customer is asked by the shipper to prove the gun is going to an FFL. So, because of this I still send my FFL to non-licensee's when requested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 Life Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I think there's probably differences with the local ATF inspectors as well. (or maybe it’s just a rule change. I just can't find it in any of the rules) This sending hard copy FFL's subject came up years ago so I called my local inspector about. He just said to boldly mark it as file copy only. (I've had the same inspector for the last 20 years) The reason I called him is unlike dealers that just sell guns a gunsmith has to receive the gun from his customer in order to do the work. Many times the customer is asked by the shipper to prove the gun is going to an FFL. So, because of this I still send my FFL to non-licensee's when requested. Yep. A Valid reason in your profession for sure.I apologize to the Wire..there are a very few exceptions as Nate pointed out, but letting a non licensee indiscriminately use your FFL , especially by storing it on his computer hard drive is definitely not kosher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 but letting a non licensee indiscriminately use your FFL , especially by storing it on his computer hard drive is definitely not kosher. Shorty, what is the issue for storing a copy on ones computer?* Original marked 'File Copy' with original signature - in one of my safes with all the other firearms paperwork * Scanned copy in a sub-directory that I send as an attachment in an email Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sheriff Pack Wolf, SASS #31917 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I have shipped several rifles through UPS this year. A copy of the dealers ffl was required by the UPS agent. All of the recipient dealers sent me or emailed the copy of their FFL license for me to do this. I was understanding that that was the way it was done. I bought a rifle last week and the seller said that he did not have to have a ffl to ship, and the dealer verified this..which he did ship the rifle, it is waiting for me now. I would expect that my shipper would require that I have a copy of the FFL license, if I shipped again. Pack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 Life Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Shorty, what is the issue for storing a copy on ones computer? * Original marked 'File Copy' with original signature - in one of my safes with all the other firearms paperwork * Scanned copy in a sub-directory that I send as an attachment in an email Ok Pard.Do whatever you want with your FFL Holders License.None of my business anyway. I am out of this one. Respectfully, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Ok Pard.Do whatever you want with your FFL Holders License. I am out of this one. Respectfully, SS Shorty, before you go do you know where that reg is in the ATF rules. I've only heard of it never been able to find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 Life Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Not to be rude, Nate, but I really don't care what anyone else does with their license.I only know that I am not going to jeopardize mine, especially with an SOT/Class III Stamp as well. I tired to send you a PM but it was bounced back as you can't apparently receive more messages. ATF Audits are not something to take lightly..I have had several, with never a glitch and I intend to keep it that way. Best Regards SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustang Gregg Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I'm with Irish Red and Shorty on this one, Pards. I ain't letting my FFL copies get to anyone, except the FFL who's receiving or sending. There's way too much copying, frauding, id theft, etc going on. I need my gun business for income. And I sure don't wanna piss off the ATFE. 'Nuff said. Mustang Gregg Wild West Arms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I'm with Irish Red and Shorty on this one, Pards. I ain't letting my FFL copies get to anyone, except the FFL who's receiving or sending. There's way too much copying, frauding, id theft, etc going on. I need my gun business for income. And I sure don't wanna piss off the ATFE. 'Nuff said. Mustang Gregg Wild West Arms Greg, Do you know where that reg is in the ATF rules? I've looked but I can't find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCandless Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 OK, now I'm coming up against another "hiccup". First there's the FFL holders that won't send a hard copy, and thanks to the replies, I understand why... But now I've come across dealers that won't take FAX copies, but will only take a mailed hard copy, on the recommendation of their BATFE agent. wheels within wheels... McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 OK, now I'm coming up against another "hiccup". First there's the FFL holders that won't send a hard copy, and thanks to the replies, I understand why... But now I've come across dealers that won't take FAX copies, but will only take a mailed hard copy, on the recommendation of their BATFE agent . wheels within wheels... McC THAT would be the variations from agent to agent that Nate was talking about. Some of them don't even know their own rules. Gubmint workers, gotta luv 'em. Oh wait, I are one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 Life Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Interesting, beings that a fax or e-mail copy does not have an original ink signature on it. It could be a transplanted signature from something else. Year ago I did contract work that was Red Lined. You had to sign your name in black ink over an inked straight red line. If both were not there, it was not accepted. ATF has allowed Faxed or E mailed copies of FFL's to be sent between dealers for the last 6 or 7 years at least..I haven't received a mailed FFL from a Dealer in years. Amazing how many misinformed non Dealers attempt to quote ATF Regs erroneously.A little knowledge, especially when it comes to ATF matters, is a dangerous thing indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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