Four Eyes Henry Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 By golly, that gives me a GREAT idea! How 'bout we add a "Purist" category? Yeah, you could call it Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter We have 2 like that: 1880 double duelist and 1890BP double duelist, one with full bore stock guns and one with short stroke raceguns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 No problem with .45 rifle's, It's cartridges introduced before 1880 and 1890. For 1890 category there's no limitation. I am not saying it's perfect(it will never be) , but it keeps guns in a sort of time frame. My Rossi is a .45 Colt and there's no difference in a 44 WCF with 200gr or .45 Colt with the same bullet weight . But the cartridge is not the same. The original was a balloon head and held more powder. And the 45 Colt was NEVER in a lever action rifle in that period. Looks like at least two strikes against the 45 Colt rifle - so I say tis modern - cause it is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Four Eyes Henry Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 But the cartridge is not the same. The original was a balloon head and held more powder. And the 45 Colt was NEVER in a lever action rifle in that period. Looks like at least two strikes against the 45 Colt rifle - so I say tis modern - cause it is! You're right of course, I never said it was perfect but we have "stock" gun category's and a "race" category and the lever motion of a "stock" 45 colt 1873 is the same as a 44 wcf so that's no advantage. Sure, it is not easy to get a leveled playing field but I think if people want to do that, the focus should be more on guns then cartridges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckhorn Woodie Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 So if they reinvent modern, does that mean I can’t shoot my 3-screw Ruger Blackhawks in, B-Western Cowboy Wrangler 49er & Senior Anymore…WOW!!! What a great deal !!!!!!!!! Maybe ya could call this new Modern the 97 category…cause 97% of all shooters would be in it !!! BH Now hold on there pard....97% of all shooters in one category would just not be right....what about guys like me..here lately I have been shooting Duelist..I have 73 colt clones...OK they would put me in a Classic category....but they are in 357.....so that would make me modern....and I shoot a 92 & a 94....so they would make me modern....BUT I just ordered a 66....so that is classic....so we would need a 50/50 or 1/2 & 1/2 class..... so when the scorekeeper shouts out: " Hay Allie what class is Woodie Shooting today?" Allie could say: " Woodie is a HALFsASS Duelist!"..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Good thing I didn't have my mouth full when I read that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I could care less about new categories, so I say go for it! I'll shoot Frontier Cartridge Duelist until we have Senior FCD. Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 To quote Blackwater Desperado: PUH...LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE!!! I mean REALLY!! I posted this to demonstrate that such a move would make as other's mentioned a 97 category with 97% of the shooters in it. That is why I added: Maybe we haven't thought this through completely... PLEASE don't take it seriously. I'm not running a match so I don't know from that side, but from my view, the current categories are working pretty well as is. And participation driven, some matches are adding one or two of their favorites such as Outlaw and FCGF and that is fine. (But many gun ranges won't allow Outlaw and weather/fire conditions sometimes limit BP) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairshake Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Rye, I'm sorry but I don't think that Frontier Cartridge will ever have any class breaks like all the other categories. I have shot the class since the beginning and at times it really is amusing. I started with USFA revolvers in 45 Colt shooting a 255 gr bullet with a full case of 2F powder and a 92 rifle with same. 65-70 gr shotgun loads. I posted a article about dividing the class into ages and calibers. It seemed as if every shooter was against it. The only thing is they all shot in classes that had age and other class divisions. I am a history buff and prefer to shoot the same ammo that was used in the time period we all emulate.I then went to 44-40 as I changed to a 1873 rifle and USFA revolvers. My loads are in the 34-35 grain area with a 210 grain bullet. Every year we have a BP championship match and all the Gamers and fast young shooters come to play with 38 special ammo that you may see going down range. No muzzle jump on revolvers or rifles. This needs some sort of better class rules. At 64 with the health problems that come with it, I don't stand a chance against a 19-30 year old shooter shooting a cartridge that contains 10 grains of BP behind a 125 grain bullet. Most people who don't know me will think that I just want to change the rules for me and that is not so. I have been coming in at the bottom or close to it since I started shooting. Before an illness hit me I was shooting three matches a month so coming in at the bottom is not the issue. I think that if you are going to have a shooting club that has many classes that are trying to be historically correct then that should also include ammo. We stress that certain classes should look authentic down to not wearing boots with rubber soles but then allow ammo that is less powerful than any round ever shot in the real west. Why is everyone so against a load to the top type of class? I bet if you have guest they will be there watching that group as soon as the first boom takes place. It will not be a fast class and if you shoot in it you will never win over all. You will how ever know that you are doing it the same way as those we so admire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Rye, I'm sorry but I don't think that Frontier Cartridge will ever have any class breaks like all the other categories. I have shot the class since the beginning and at times it really is amusing. I started with USFA revolvers in 45 Colt shooting a 255 gr bullet with a full case of 2F powder and a 92 rifle with same. 65-70 gr shotgun loads. I posted a article about dividing the class into ages and calibers. It seemed as if every shooter was against it. The only thing is they all shot in classes that had age and other class divisions. I am a history buff and prefer to shoot the same ammo that was used in the time period we all emulate.I then went to 44-40 as I changed to a 1873 rifle and USFA revolvers. My loads are in the 34-35 grain area with a 210 grain bullet. Every year we have a BP championship match and all the Gamers and fast young shooters come to play with 38 special ammo that you may see going down range. No muzzle jump on revolvers or rifles. This needs some sort of better class rules. At 64 with the health problems that come with it, I don't stand a chance against a 19-30 year old shooter shooting a cartridge that contains 10 grains of BP behind a 125 grain bullet. Most people who don't know me will think that I just want to change the rules for me and that is not so. I have been coming in at the bottom or close to it since I started shooting. Before an illness hit me I was shooting three matches a month so coming in at the bottom is not the issue. I think that if you are going to have a shooting club that has many classes that are trying to be historically correct then that should also include ammo. We stress that certain classes should look authentic down to not wearing boots with rubber soles but then allow ammo that is less powerful than any round ever shot in the real west. Why is everyone so against a load to the top type of class? I bet if you have guest they will be there watching that group as soon as the first boom takes place. It will not be a fast class and if you shoot in it you will never win over all. You will how ever know that you are doing it the same way as those we so admire. Seriously, does it make you feel better about yourself to put others down that are playing the game within the written rules? I know it's going to come as a shock to you, but back in the day, most folks weren't shooting 44's or 45's...and believe it or not, they weren't shooting STEEL TARGETS! Oy...do I hate these kinds of attitudes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Rye, I'm sorry but I don't think that Frontier Cartridge will ever have any class breaks like all the other categories. I have shot the class since the beginning and at times it really is amusing. I started with USFA revolvers in 45 Colt shooting a 255 gr bullet with a full case of 2F powder and a 92 rifle with same. 65-70 gr shotgun loads. I posted a article about dividing the class into ages and calibers. It seemed as if every shooter was against it. The only thing is they all shot in classes that had age and other class divisions. I am a history buff and prefer to shoot the same ammo that was used in the time period we all emulate.I then went to 44-40 as I changed to a 1873 rifle and USFA revolvers. My loads are in the 34-35 grain area with a 210 grain bullet. Every year we have a BP championship match and all the Gamers and fast young shooters come to play with 38 special ammo that you may see going down range. No muzzle jump on revolvers or rifles. This needs some sort of better class rules. At 64 with the health problems that come with it, I don't stand a chance against a 19-30 year old shooter shooting a cartridge that contains 10 grains of BP behind a 125 grain bullet. Most people who don't know me will think that I just want to change the rules for me and that is not so. I have been coming in at the bottom or close to it since I started shooting. Before an illness hit me I was shooting three matches a month so coming in at the bottom is not the issue. I think that if you are going to have a shooting club that has many classes that are trying to be historically correct then that should also include ammo. We stress that certain classes should look authentic down to not wearing boots with rubber soles but then allow ammo that is less powerful than any round ever shot in the real west. Why is everyone so against a load to the top type of class? I bet if you have guest they will be there watching that group as soon as the first boom takes place. It will not be a fast class and if you shoot in it you will never win over all. You will how ever know that you are doing it the same way as those we so admire. Hi Fairshake, In my area, folks would gravitate to the youngin' who sounds like he's shooting an automatic - Badlands Bud. I've not seen the same audience around others. Also, we are a fantasy game and do not require historical correctness to the nth degree. About rubber soles, after slipping a few times, I have my shoes resoled with rubber whenever possible. I am also having foot issues that don't allow me to wear the same shoes that I wore when I started. I'm really starting to understand the shoe accommodations that some folks need. IIUC, you are wanting age-based FC. If you can gather enough support it can happen. More power to you! However, I doubt that the support is there. I do know that there are others as I tried to help them start a category. They could not come to consensus and that was without adding an age-based criteria. Most folks don't want to beat themselves up shooting the type of loads you shoot. Especially as they age. Not just "gamers" (I hate it when folks use that term ), older folks and folks with health issues cannot shoot that type of load. If you want to practice and do well, you can't do it for long with that type of load. Furthermore, there is more risk of target damage with heavier loads. Hey, I come out close to the bottom now too. I liked being in the top half most of the time and getting awards better. However, physical issues keep me from practicing regularly so, I've come to terms with my shooting as it is in an existing category. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Rye, I'm sorry but I don't think that Frontier Cartridge will ever have any class breaks like all the other categories. I have shot the class since the beginning and at times it really is amusing. I started with USFA revolvers in 45 Colt shooting a 255 gr bullet with a full case of 2F powder and a 92 rifle with same. 65-70 gr shotgun loads. I posted a article about dividing the class into ages and calibers. It seemed as if every shooter was against it. The only thing is they all shot in classes that had age and other class divisions. I am a history buff and prefer to shoot the same ammo that was used in the time period we all emulate.I then went to 44-40 as I changed to a 1873 rifle and USFA revolvers. My loads are in the 34-35 grain area with a 210 grain bullet. In the "Time Period" you wish to emulate - There were no age protections. The old guys either shot faster or they got gunned down by the young guys. If you want to pretend that you're walking the steeets of Tombstone or Deadwood then you have to shoot it out with who ever challenges you. You can't decline because "He's too young or his bullets are not to my standards" There should be NO age protections in style based categories. Every year we have a BP championship match and all the Gamers and fast young shooters come to play with 38 special ammo that you may see going down range. No muzzle jump on revolvers or rifles. This needs some sort of better class rules. At 64 with the health problems that come with it, I don't stand a chance against a 19-30 year old shooter shooting a cartridge that contains 10 grains of BP behind a 125 grain bullet. At 64 with health problems, do you really see yourself standing a chance against the gamers and young shooters? Even if they shot your EXACT SAME load? Most people who don't know me will think that I just want to change the rules for me and that is not so. I have been coming in at the bottom or close to it since I started shooting. Before an illness hit me I was shooting three matches a month so coming in at the bottom is not the issue. I think that if you are going to have a shooting club that has many classes that are trying to be historically correct then that should also include ammo. Our ammo is historically correct. Lead bullets propelled by powder. We stress that certain classes should look authentic down to not wearing boots with rubber soles but then allow ammo that is less powerful than any round ever shot in the real west. Annie Oakley used 22cal shotshells in her rifle to hit all those thrown targets - Buffalo hunters used 45-90 rifles to take meat - and there was plethora of 32 caliber pocket pistols and 36 caliber percussion guns in use as well. To say that there was a "minimal" load and then to imply we should use it shows a thorough lack of knowledge of the firearms actually in use in the old west. Why is everyone so against a load to the top type of class? I bet if you have guest they will be there watching that group as soon as the first boom takes place. It will not be a fast class and if you shoot in it you will never win over all. You will how ever know that you are doing it the same way as those we so admire. As long as you stay within SASS guidelines, who is stopping you from loading to the top? You have already put out the claim that you will never win and you don't care about your position on the score sheet. So load 'em up and see if you draw a crowd. If you want to boom - do it. If you want to compete - do what is needed to do that. But don't claim that you don't want this for yourself, when your entire argument is "I can't compete at my age and chosen loading, so we should add a protected category that encompasses my age and loading". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Thank God for Allie and Creeker...they say it soooo much better then me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Dan Dawkins Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 We need a category that only allows you to shoot Henry Big Boys, Blackhawks and Model 12 and nothing else. Let it have the loosest of clothing requirements. Call it Nuevo-retro Westerner. Trophy each week can be a cow turd spray painted gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Marauder, Ya house-bound; sick a-bed? Or didja just have a need to gore just about everybody's ox? :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Chris Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Thank God for Allie and Creeker...they say it soooo much better then me. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Morgan Rum, SASS #6859 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I'm all for FCGF if I can shoot with my Blackhawks! To quote another great thinker................PUH...LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE!!! I mean REALLY!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six-Shot Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 To quote another great thinker................PUH...LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE!!! I mean REALLY!! Haven't I seen you shoot FC with Ruger Vaqueros? What difference does it make whether the rear sights on Blackhawks are adjustable? Once they are set to POA they are "fixed" just like Vaqueros. It's still shooting gunfighter style with blackpowder isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wylie Harp, #21158L Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 No returning categories and no new categories until AFTER we make Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter official CMR....who thinks FCGF should have been the FIRST category SASS created Oh, I forgot the Harrumph! Wylie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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