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Why does this 1897 lock-up?


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O.K. I have looked for this answer but had not had much luck so I'm gonna ask here.

 

When did they start making shotguns for 2 3/4" shells?

 

Specifically I am trying to determine when Winchester '97's started being made to handle 2 3/4" shell....

 

Were the early models made for 2 1/2" shells?

 

JJJ-D

:ph34r: :ph34r:

 

See reply #14 for an update...

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JJJ-D

 

Here is a quote from one of the gun boards. I have a "Sweet Sixteen" that is chambered at 2 5/8". It was born in 1911 so this quote fits the time frame of mine.

 

"I was headed by a gun shop yesterday so I took my '97 along to see what they could tell me about the chambering. The guy there grabbed a couple reference books. Both the books said that all 12 gauge 1897s were chambred 2 3/4", just the 16 and 20 gauge models were short-chambered until 1927. I took it to the range and it worked well with Remington Game Loads."

 

JJ-D

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I asked the same thing when I bought a '97 about a month ago. I was told that all '97s were chambered for 2 3/4" shells, but that the shells used at the time were paper hulled. Modern 2 3/4" plastic shells will fit into the chamber, but the crimp might not open fully. It will still function, but the increased pressure is potentially dangerous if shooting full power loads. I guess that I got lucky, because the crimp opens fully on my '97 that was made in 1904.

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I asked the same thing when I bought a '97 about a month ago. I was told that all '97s were chambered for 2 3/4" shells, but that the shells used at the time were paper hulled. Modern 2 3/4" plastic shells will fit into the chamber, but the crimp might not open fully. It will still function, but the increased pressure is potentially dangerous if shooting full power loads. I guess that I got lucky, because the crimp opens fully on my '97 that was made in 1904.

 

Therein lies the need for longer forcing cones. The longer "open length" of the shell combined with the use of plastic shot cups makes it a good idea to lengthen the forcing cones so that the extra length of the open shell does not create a restriction.

 

Drifter

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Herein lies some mis-information that doesn't seem to want to die.

 

ALL 97's were indeed chambered for 2-3/4 inch shells. Period !!! It doesn't make one bit of difference if the shells are paper or plastic, roll crimped or fold crimped. A 2-3/4 inch shell is a 2-3/4 inch shell.

 

Shotshells are measured in the fired length, not the shorter loaded length. Shotshells have different loaded lengths, depending on the type of crimp, but any 2-3/4 inch shell will measure 2-3/4 inches after being fired, regardless of the crimp style that was used.

 

NOW, having the forcing cones lengthened is a good thing, not necessarily for any purpose other than to tame some of the recoil impulse, although this usually improves patterns too. In CAS, the only thing we look for is reduced recoil. At our target distances, pattern quality is of little importance.

 

SO ! Throw out all those old wives tales. 12 ga. 97's were ALL chambered for 2-3/4 inch shells, and require absolutely NOTHING in order to fire standard off the shelf 2-3/4 inch shells. All this B.S. about paper shells or roll crimps making a difference is just that Bull S**t.

 

RBK

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Not so sure about all 97s being chambered for 2 3/4" shells. When I bought mine (made in 1917) I noticed that it seemed to kick a might hard even with low power (3 1/4 dr equiv) loads. My gunsmith dropped a chamber gauge in it and said that it was chambered for 2 1/2" shells. He reamed it out and kick is not as severe.

 

Sam from Alabam

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-------------- kick a might hard even with low power (3 1/4 dr equiv) loads.

 

Sam from Alabam

 

 

Sam, what may I ask do you call a high powered load?"

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Not so sure about all 97s being chambered for 2 3/4" shells. When I bought mine (made in 1917) I noticed that it seemed to kick a might hard even with low power (3 1/4 dr equiv) loads. My gunsmith dropped a chamber gauge in it and said that it was chambered for 2 1/2" shells. He reamed it out and kick is not as severe.

 

Sam from Alabam

 

Sam, I'd have to see it to believe it. Even Winchester says they were all, (12 ga.), 2-3/4 inch chambers. They did have very abrupt forcing cones, in deference to the ammo of the day that used the felt and card wads. So relieving that to a more gradual taper would definately effect the felt recoil. That's undoubtedly what the Gunsmith did, elongate the forcing cones.

 

Just an FYI. You state "Low Power 3-1/4 dram loads". Sir that's not possible. Low power loads start at 2-3/4 drams and go DOWN from there. 3 Dram loads and above are NOT low power loads, and are considered heavy field or target loads.

 

RBK

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Lengthening a chamber and a forcing cone is relatively inexpensive and will dramatically lower the recoil and enhance the patterning of the shot. This is stuff that we have learned about scatterguns since 1897.

My '97 was made in 1906. It was chambered for 2-3/4" but I had this work done anyways to improve the performance for under $100. This also cleaned up some pitting that was likely to be a problem with cleaning later on.

The statement about 2-3/4" being the same fired length with crimped, rolled or other varities is not quite correct. I use Remington STS hulls, trim 1/4" from the open hull and add a roll crimp over a overshot card to make the shells 2-3/8", the same as a crimped 2-3/4" shell.

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Lengthening a chamber and a forcing cone is relatively inexpensive and will dramatically lower the recoil and enhance the patterning of the shot. This is stuff that we have learned about scatterguns since 1897.

My '97 was made in 1906. It was chambered for 2-3/4" but I had this work done anyways to improve the performance for under $100. This also cleaned up some pitting that was likely to be a problem with cleaning later on.

The statement about 2-3/4" being the same fired length with crimped, rolled or other varities is not quite correct. I use Remington STS hulls, trim 1/4" from the open hull and add a roll crimp over a overshot card to make the shells 2-3/8", the same as a crimped 2-3/4" shell.

 

Apples and Oranges Sir. Doesn't it stand to reason that when you cut 1/4 inch off a hull that it is no longer the 2-3/4 inches it was to begin with????? Factory loaded 2-3/4 inch shells are just that, whether roll crimped or fold crimped. Your home rolled stuff isn't even germain to the conversation.

 

RBK

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Rio, it sure sounds like you know where of you speak.

 

That only makes me wonder why is was that back on the old CAS-L long before the wire, we have folks measure their 97 chambers and guess what - none measure a full 2 3/4 inches.

 

Have you put a modern chamber gauge into your 97's. When I did, they were all a little too short. So I slightly lengthened the chamber to meet modern specifications and also lengthened the forcing cones.

 

I believe the the 10 or so guys that actually measured their chambers and found them slightly short.

And I remember shooting those old roll crimped shells that my Dad gave me. And my brothers and i opened a few up to look at them and they were definitely shorter than the modern shells we had.

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Hi Maurader,

Yes I know that they liked a tad being a full 2-3/4 inches, however there was a reason for that and it's a proven fact that modern plastic 2-3/4 shells will work just fine in those chambers. Sometime we'll have a conversation about them.

 

As an added piece of great knowledge on the subject of short shotgun chambers, look up a copy of the June-July 2005 Handloader Magazine, in which John Barsness article "An Old Drilling" discusses using the 2-3/4 inch shells in shorter chambers from testing done at the Winchester Factory. Interestingly they found that with the use of PLASTIC hulls, (Not paper), modern 2-3/4 ammo didn't create any more pressure in the short chambers than it did in modern 2-3/4 inch chambers, and explained why this was. A very interesting and informative article.

 

RBK

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Than for the answers guys....

 

that eliminates one possible cause,

 

now on to the next in this series.

 

I have an 1897 made in 1898.

 

It is original expect for the forstock/ slide. This one has the next newer one pice version, it is not a 3 screw.

 

I had a gunsmith go through it ans we found a bolt pin was the wrong size, leaving a small notch on the right side of the receiver....

 

The gunsmith did not have a chance ta test fire it, so I did at our match Sunday on the last stage.

 

First round goes off and chambers the second round just fine.

 

Second round goes off then the bolt jams.

 

After smacking it on the table a few times the bolt, slide moves and the round comes out.

 

Drop a third one in the gun and slide it shut, didn't go all the way forward and jams again.

 

Smack it a few times and get the slide/ bolt open, rounds comes out.

 

Put in another and this time I aggressively chamber the round.

 

Rounds goes off just fine, bolt/ slide is jammed again....

 

I get it open....

 

The action stick for a few cycles empty, then starts working just fine....

 

So we have some problem, questions is, what could it be?

 

JJJ-D

:ph34r: :ph34r:

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A common approach to finding a jam is to disassemble the action and look for rub spots and other signs where there is interference that should not be present. Rub spots, rough spots, burrs, etc. Something that has developed in the last few months.

 

Check the action hook screw. Breaks a lot, sometimes you don't even notice it's broken until you take it all apart. You say also that the forend parts have been replaced? Check and double check the action bar end , it's shape has to be fitted to the carrier just right, so it does not bind. Check the channel in the carrier's left side, that you don't have burrs or a narrow spot where metal is being displaced into the channel. Sounds like the jamming is occurring just as the action is unlocking? Check that there is not any new interference between carrier front edge and the back of the bolt (that is the contact that locks the action shut). Check for smooth operation of the shell stop flag and that the stop screw is not riding on top of the flag instead of catching the bottom edge of the flag. Look for parts slightly out of place, like that pin that was too long and shortened by the gunsmith, or a flat spring that has moved out of position. Lots of areas where a 97 can start to stick. Keep looking until you find it.

 

Good luck, GJ

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JJJ-D

 

Here is a quote from one of the gun boards. I have a "Sweet Sixteen" that is chambered at 2 5/8". It was born in 1911 so this quote fits the time frame of mine.

 

"I was headed by a gun shop yesterday so I took my '97 along to see what they could tell me about the chambering. The guy there grabbed a couple reference books. Both the books said that all 12 gauge 1897s were chambred 2 3/4", just the 16 and 20 gauge models were short-chambered until 1927. I took it to the range and it worked well with Remington Game Loads."

 

JJ-D

 

No factory 20 gauge 97s were ever made. There are a few 20s in the world but they were hand-built using model 12 barrels.

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