Charlie Plasters, SASS#60943 Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Looking at the recent Midway ad I noticed that the same cartridge brand with the same bullet type can essentially be driven as fast as or faster out the Whelen with a heavier bullet than the '06. Since the whelen is based on the '06 case but necked up for larger and heavier bullets, how is this possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack, SASS #20451 Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 The 35 Whelen is rated for higher pressures than the 30-06. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof. Fuller Bullspit Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Actually, the Whelen is not rated to higher pressures than the .30-06 if I am remembering correctly, the .30-06 is higher than the Whelen. As for velocities, keep in mind that the .35 caliber bullet is larger in diameter than the .30 caliber bullet. That means that when comparing bullets of the same weight the .35 caliber has more volume to fill as the round goes down the barrel. More volume gives more room for expansion, more expansion gives more velocity at that bullet weight. I don't think velocity for a given weight bullet is a good comparison between these rounds. The .30 is a small bore, the .35 is getting into the mid more range. When you compare typical bullet weights used in the two rounds (150-180 for the .30-06 and 200-250 for the Whelen) you see that the .30-06 can typically give higher velocities and slightly less drop at longer ranges. That said, the .35 Whelen is a great round. I think it shines with heavier bullets, the 225 and 250 grains offerings to be more specific. The .35 Whelen doesn't need hyper velocity to work. With proper bullets at reasonable velocities it is a great performer. But then again, the .30-06 is proven as well and the 200 and even 220 grain bullets that you can load in a .30-06 perform great at shorter ranges and at slower speeds. Don't get me wrong, velocity is fine, but in some cases we have gotten a little obsessive with chasing higher velocity numbers and ignoring the facts on the ground. A good sized bullet at 2500 feet per second kills a lot of game, very well at reasonable ranges. In my opinion, super high velocity is really only needed if you are really trying to shoot at long ranges, which I would say is over 300 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Plasters, SASS#60943 Posted August 26, 2011 Author Share Posted August 26, 2011 So here's what I'm talking about - Hornady Superformance ammo: 30-06 165 gr 2960 ft/sec, 35 whelen 200 gr 2910 ft/sec; Nosler custom ammo 30-06 165 gr 2800 ft/sec, 35 whelen 225 gr 2725 ft/sec. So, with the Hornady you get a 35 gr heavier bullet at a cost of only 50 ft/sec - almost negligible; and with the Nosler you get a 60 gr heavier bullet at a cost of only 75 ft/sec - again close to negligible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof. Fuller Bullspit Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 So here's what I'm talking about - Hornady Superformance ammo: 30-06 165 gr 2960 ft/sec, 35 whelen 200 gr 2910 ft/sec; Nosler custom ammo 30-06 165 gr 2800 ft/sec, 35 whelen 225 gr 2725 ft/sec. So, with the Hornady you get a 35 gr heavier bullet at a cost of only 50 ft/sec - almost negligible; and with the Nosler you get a 60 gr heavier bullet at a cost of only 75 ft/sec - again close to negligible. Of course, we take those velocity claims with a pinch of salt. But otherwise this is the beauty of larger bores! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 And the recoil will be commensurately higher with the bullet weight if gun weight and velocities stay the same.... There comes a point where what we NEED once we get away from the load books is often NOT what the books say is wonderful. Unless yer shooting big, tough critters or at extreme ranges MOST shooters can't manage humane kills at anyway..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 '06 you can by anydangplace..... 35 Whelen, bet NOT Cheers, LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof. Fuller Bullspit Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Both of the above posts are correct! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Regret, SASS #57800 Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 You can see the same "relative" velocities comparing the .260 Remington, 7mm-08 and .308. You can push the same weight bullet the same speed or even a little faster in .308 but you give up sectional density and aerodynamics. All depends what you are trying to accomplish. Big game at short to medium ranges I'd take the .35 Whelen, all around cartridge at short, medium and long range I'll take the 30-06. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 I certainly like the 35 Whelen. My 700 BDL in that caliber is my favorite. I took a nice Mule Deer at a measured 300 yds with it in Montana. Used a forked tree as a rest, and the one shot just knocked him on his kester. The 35 Whelen can be loaded up or down effectively. Obviously brass is all you want for darned near free.... I just annealed a bunch of 30.06 brass and sized it up. It's a very good round, and performs very well. Varget poweder behind a 250gn works very well. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Plasters, SASS#60943 Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 Thanks to all for the discussion. I have both an '06 in a model 70 winchester and a whelen built up on a 1917 action with an apex barrel - both are great guns. I just couldn't understand how nosler and hornady could get essentially the near same velocity out of the whelen with a much heavier bullet using the same case. With my reloading there's more of a decrease in velocity with the whelen and heavier bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Thanks to all for the discussion. I have both an '06 in a model 70 winchester and a whelen built up on a 1917 action with an apex barrel - both are great guns. I just couldn't understand how nosler and hornady could get essentially the near same velocity out of the whelen with a much heavier bullet using the same case. With my reloading there's more of a decrease in velocity with the whelen and heavier bullets. Good powder selection by the factories. With premium ammo, the factories are using a lot of custom tuned non-cannister powders that are not even available to the general public, just to squeeze out the last hundred or two FPS in their top dollar loadings. (Also a fan of the .35 Whelen) Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Fingered Fred 59408 Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 ** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 The difference between the 35 Weland and 06 is similar to the difference between a 32 special and 30-30 or a 105 vs 120mm tank gun. Has to do the the area overwhich the pressure is applied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backshootin beauford mcgee Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 wait until you wack something with the whelen. It thumps harder on target too. I like the 250 or 275 grain bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddnews SASS# 24779 Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 I can't remember now where I read it (possibly in "Handloading" magazine), but a fellow said he liked to have bragging rights around the campfire as much as anyone else, so he told people he shot ".300 Whelen -- the .35 Whelen necked down to .30 caliber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 You like the 35 Whelen? You should see my 358 Norma. But I wouldn't like to see your ammo costs (that is of course why the .35 Whelen was developed - a working class gun and working man's price for ammo - rather than .375 H&H prices). I'm sure that Norma thumps the target good. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Heck why stop there with da Norma offering ,,,,,, Why not go to the .35 Newton 150 fps. faster than the Norma ....... With no belt, minium body taper and a sharp shoulder ..... (think .375 Ruger necked to 35, but developed 85 years sooner)... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hud Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 we built an M1 garand for a guy in Alaska in 35 whalen. Dont know why, but thats what he wanted hud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 I can't remember now where I read it (possibly in "Handloading" magazine), but a fellow said he liked to have bragging rights around the campfire as much as anyone else, so he told people he shot ".300 Whelen -- the .35 Whelen necked down to .30 caliber. I love it! Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 we built an M1 garand for a guy in Alaska in 35 whalen. Dont know why, but thats what he wanted hud Howdy, Pard, The reason for going to the 35 Whelen would (at least in the shooter's opinion) be to have heavier bullet weight. Why? He's up in Alaska. They have these great big "teddy bears" up there, and sometimes a heavier slug will be a bit more effective. How can Hornady, et al, get higher velocities than a handloader, without exceeding safe pressure levels? "Simple". They use powders that aren't available to the handloader, dispite the introduction of so many new powders in recent years. Ride easy, but stay alert! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America! Your Pard, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Fingered Fred 59408 Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 ** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kougarok George Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 I believe that the lower pressures are created with bigger bores. The 35 2" down the bore has created more volume than the 30 two inches down for expansion of the gases. Another pard brought up section density and don't forget ballistic coefficient. Yes, all kinds of compromise. I believe the optimum bore diameter to take advantage of velocity(squared in the energy equation), bullet weight, SD and BC are the 40 bores. lots of knock down power and shoots flatter than the 45's. But the all around use of the 30-06 is only equalled by the 308. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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