klw Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Obviously the american made gun is never going to happen but does anyone know what happened to the gun cimarron was going to have made in Italy? klw 31116 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo_Sam Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Obviously the american made gun is never going to happen Please support this thesis. -Solo Sam #91319 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Yes, you don't KNOW the US made MH ain't ever gonna happen. You just know it ain't happened yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Here we go........ Is the glass half full, or was it empty from day one? LL Before I go off half cocked, there are some more pics of components posted on the M-H website forum... http://www.forum.merwinhulbertco.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1583&page=0&fpart=2&vc=1 I'd be interested in input from folks experienced in this machining process...are we looking at something meaningful here as an indication of progress toward a gun? LL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Howdy Loophole Thanks for the link. I know a little bit about machining, so I will take a stab at it. First off, the frame with the slightly yellowish cast to it, the part that has engraving on it and a little bit of powder fouling inside, is obviously a nickel plated original frame, put there for comparison purposes. It looks like two of the frames are hot off the CNC machines. The focus is not clear enough to tell if the other frame has been tumbled or not. I cannot tell if the parts are tool steel or stainless, but judging from the touches of rust and the remarks about humidity, I would guess they are not Stainless. Two of the frames have not been deburred or tumbled yet, they are right off the machines. That's why they still exhibit tool marks. They also exhibit a few scratches from less than super careful handling. Usually production parts will be dumped into a great big vibratory tumbler, not too different from the tumblers we use for our brass. The tumblers are usually filled with ceramic media. After tumbling for a set period of time, the tool marks will start to disappear. The scratches will usually disappear too. But those parts are hot off the machines, they have not been tumbled yet. The focus is a little bit soft to determine if the third frame is also fresh off the machines, or if it has been tumbled a bit. It does not happen too often anymore that parts are hand deburred, but it is not unknown, particularly if production numbers are small. So, you are looking at real parts. I suspect they are simply parts from a prototype run, not production parts. Generally speaking, before going into full production, a company will make up a short run of parts, then assemble them to see if there are any issues with design and fit. Usually there has to be a little bit of tweaking before the company is confident enough of the CNC programs to go into full production. Sometimes real mistakes are found. A hole may simply be in the wrong place. More often, it is a matter of very minor adjustments to the program. I minor tweak of a couple of thousandths here, changing a feed rate there, adding a finish cut someplace to reduce the tooling marks. Stuff like that. Once all the bugs have been ironed out, then the first real production run is made. I suspect these are simply prototype parts because the photo only shows a few parts. If they were grinding out lots of production parts, they would have gone out to the production floor and shown a photo of racks and racks of parts, not just a few parts. One other thing I found interesting is the teeny, tiny inner radius near the sharp point at the bottom of the hammer. That profile may have been cut with a Wire EDM (Electro Discharge Machine). I suppose the radius could be cut with a conventional CNC machine, but it would require a very, small diameter cutter. Sometimes a profile like that is cut with a wire EDM, which can cut a radius only a couple of thousandths larger than the radius of the wire. Wire EDM has the advantage of cutting very tiny radii, and if the feed rate is slow enough it leaves almost a mirror finish behind. No secondary finishing is needed. The down side is that it is slow. The animation is interesting. Today the most up to date manufacturing processes use 3D CAD (Computer Aided Design) programs. The parts are totally designed in the computer. Well, not completely. What usually happens in a case like this is original parts are very precisely measured with computer aided tools. Then the CAD operator imports the 3D information into his computer and the program creates the part. I have done it both ways, I have designed parts from scratch in the computer, and I have imported information and let the computer do it. But the beauty of it is, once all the parts have been created in the computer, they can then be 'assembled' into the whole gun. The program will then go through the assembly and can find any interferences, where the parts clash and would not fit together. An animation like this can also be used to find problems with moving parts. The CAD operator then goes in and tweaks the parts until they fit properly, even allowing the necessary clearance for moving parts to work properly. Once all this has been done, the computer file is sent to the CNC (Computer Numerical Control) machines, and the CNC machines create the program that will cut the parts. This is not an automatic process, it takes a skilled CNC programmer to input lots of information into the machine to complete the program, the machine does not do it all by itself. The animation is a file created by the 3D CAD program. It simply assembles or disassembles the parts as required and sends the animation to the screen. It is a cute touch that they have a reflection of a building on one of the surfaces of the barrel. Just a cute add on, 'painted' onto the surface of the part by the 3D CAD designer. P.S. Take a close look at the drawing under the parts. It has been placed there to impress, but it actually reveals something. In the lower left corner of the drawing is a 3D view of the frame. The modern manufacturing process is not quite paperless yet. Somebody always wants a print, usually the inspectors. The CAD designer included a 3D view of the part to show the machinist what the 3D part is supposed to look like. I used to usually put at least 3 3D views of a part on my prints. The other thing is the almost complete lack of dimensions. Back in the 2D days, even with 2D CAD, the print of a complicated part like that would have had a bazillion dimensions all over it. This print has very few dimensions on it. Just a few for reference, like the diameter of the recoil shield. All the dimensional information for the part is within the 3D design. It looks like the assembler/inspector has made some notes on the print. Maybe notes that something needs to be tweaked a bit. Maybe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 To try and look at the forest and not the trees. Yes as Driftwood says, we got us a few prototype bits here. Let me opine that nearly any good CNC programmer with an original gun to measure could reverse engineer the gun well enough to get recognizable parts, and if the machine is run at the right speeds with decent tooling, they come out looking pretty much like a gun. Polish em up and they look better. But then we have to assemble em and make the gun go bang, and that, friends, is where the issues arise, as holding tolerances, figuring out where the limits are, then trying to move from the ultra-slow, prototype mode to the production mode where time equals money, and still keep all the running chainsaws in the air as we juggle, gets real interesting. IF we had a target out the door price of say $5000, dozens of concernss could make a gun worthy of the design, maybe almost as good as the original, hand-fitted piece. But when we try to get that down to a SELLABLE price, we have to speed up the processes, and we get all sorts of gremlins. Now, once that plateau has been achieved, we're upside down by a BUNCH of time and money for the R&D, which has to be extracted along with production costs and profit, from the finished pieces sold. If yer gonna make ONE, it costs an extreme amount of money, if yer thinking ya can sell 50,000 of em, easy peasy to amortize the costs, but we know that ain't gonna happen, so somewhere along the line, the decision has to be made CAN WE MAKE MONEY DOING THIS? If yes, they proceeed, if not, they cut their losses and move on OR sell the CNC program and shop notes to some outfit in Turkey........ As an example, they can make relatively simple, fancy motorcycle wheels out of aluminum billet that sell for $1000 each or more. But a FACTORY can't make money on a bike if the wheels cost that much, so they have to "dumb em down" to get em done quicker, cheaper. The M&H design is not amenable to "dumbing down" a whole lot (nor is a '73 for that matter) So can it be done at a reasonable retail price is ALWAYS the question UNLESS your buyer is a custom, one-off collector with deep pockets...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Adams 3674 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Two different projects here guys. The MH link is NOT the Cimarron project the OP refers to. Mike Harvey of Cimarron Arms has been working on bringing a MH replica to the market for some time now. Last I heard the biggest road block was Baretta, and basic allocation for production resources to a new arm. Could be other issues as well, but that's the last I heard........ Maybe Abilene knows more about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Two different projects here guys. The MH link is NOT the Cimarron project the OP refers to. Mike Harvey of Cimarron Arms has been working on bringing a MH replica to the market for some time now. Last I heard the biggest road block was Baretta, and basic allocation for production resources to a new arm. Could be other issues as well, but that's the last I heard........ Maybe Abilene knows more about it? Nope...the MH link IS the "american gun" the OP refers to. No doubt that we hijacked it; but the #2 and#3 posters asked for info on the OP's assertion that the american gun would not be built, and I thought it was appropriate to post the new MH photos. My apologies if the OP felt his post swept downstream. LL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Seen #16162 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Good points by A.J. The question I have is CAS is a such small market so what other type of shooters/collectors would the product appeal too? I can't see a MW having any appeal as a CCW and limited appeal for home defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucson Jim Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Odd thought: Cimarron is starting to do business with Pietta of late. So is Pietta capable of making one of these critters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarheel Rifleman, SASS # 23477 Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Nope...the MH link IS the "american gun" the OP refers to. No doubt that we hijacked it; but the #2 and#3 posters asked for info on the OP's assertion that the american gun would not be built, and I thought it was appropriate to post the new MH photos. My apologies if the OP felt his post swept downstream. LL Noticed the date of the photos in the M-H link are early June. Would be nice to see what progress they've made in the two months since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quick Will Lee Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 The grip pics look to me like they are try to figure out how to machine from solid stock, and they aren't even complete either. I see they gave themselves a 1 aug 2011 deadline of having some 20ish pistols but don't have any pics posted I could find. There is not much to be excited about with some parts that could pretty much be done any 3 axis cnc in a guys garage. When you start to see cast or forged parts that are getting machined, then you can get excited. I wonder how long it took Norinco to copy a 97 from start to finish production? This really does not seem like it should that hard with modern technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 One other thing I found interesting is the teeny, tiny inner radius near the sharp point at the bottom of the hammer. That profile may have been cut with a Wire EDM (Electro Discharge Machine). I suppose the radius could be cut with a conventional CNC machine, but it would require a very, small diameter cutter. Sometimes a profile like that is cut with a wire EDM, which can cut a radius only a couple of thousandths larger than the radius of the wire. Wire EDM has the advantage of cutting very tiny radii, and if the feed rate is slow enough it leaves almost a mirror finish behind. No secondary finishing is needed. The down side is that it is slow. Correct - I am also a product of the machining world. EDM wire can get down to 0.1mm (.0039"). Interestingly there are now carbide square endmills that can get down to 0.025mm (.001") and balllnose endmills in the 0.127mm (.005") - amazing these days.... GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Correct - I am also a product of the machining world. EDM wire can get down to 0.1mm (.0039"). Interestingly there are now carbide square endmills that can get down to 0.025mm (.001") and balllnose endmills in the 0.127mm (.005") - amazing these days.... GG ~ Funny how machining guys always find small stuff interesting. Some things never change. My dad was a "hand wheel and micrometer" machinist back in the day. (he never made the transition to CNC or NC). The old joke then was how the German machinist was always making smaller and smaller screws. One day he made a screw so small it took a magnifier and tweezers to thread a nut onto it. Proud of his work, he showed it off around the shop. A visiting Japanese machinist copied it, but afraid of losing the screw, drilled a hole through the head and made a chain he could thread through the hole to prevent losing the screw..... Myself, I've got solid carbide endmills down to a few thousanths diameter, but my machine isn't rigid enough and won't turn fast enough to use em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Noticed the date of the photos in the M-H link are early June. Would be nice to see what progress they've made in the two months since then. Well, we've been watching this project for a couple of years; I would not call the pace of development anything faster than glacial. Not sayin' it won't happen; just that it's r-e-a-l s-l-o-w-w-w. LL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Funny how machining guys always find small stuff interesting. Some things never change. My dad was a "hand wheel and micrometer" machinist back in the day. (he never made the transition to CNC or NC). The old joke then was how the German machinist was always making smaller and smaller screws. One day he made a screw so small it took a magnifier and tweezers to thread a nut onto it. Proud of his work, he showed it off around the shop. A visiting Japanese machinist copied it, but afraid of losing the screw, drilled a hole through the head and made a chain he could thread through the hole to prevent losing the screw..... Myself, I've got solid carbide endmills down to a few thousanths diameter, but my machine isn't rigid enough and won't turn fast enough to use em. BINGO! when I was working as the solid carbid endmill product specialist for MMUS (Mitsubishi Materials USA) I was 'wowed' when they offered a 0.02~6mm radius ball nose mill that had a 2 micron (0.00008") radial tolerance! It was for super finishing and high accuracy, but when you consider that one has to consider spindle bearings, tool holding, run out considerations it made us wonder 'why?' - the machines exist that can do these ops, but they aren't at every corner GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 On the company website, on June 30, Michael Block had said that the parts would all be finished and ready for the assembly of twenty compete guns for testing starting August 1. No word on the completed guns, and the posts on the forum requesting photos of completed guns, or at least photos of batches of other parts, simply go ignored. They will accept deposits though. Edit:I'm referring to the "new" Merwin Hulbert Company, not Cimarron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 BINGO! when I was working as the solid carbid endmill product specialist for MMUS (Mitsubishi Materials USA) I was 'wowed' when they offered a 0.02~6mm radius ball nose mill that had a 2 micron (0.00008") radial tolerance! It was for super finishing and high accuracy, but when you consider that one has to consider spindle bearings, tool holding, run out considerations it made us wonder 'why?' - the machines exist that can do these ops, but they aren't at every corner GG ~ Air powered mini drill heads and super rigid fixtures. Ya gotta be able to spin em at like 100,000 rpms for best results. Even .007" drill bits do better in a hand held dremel (if ya can hit the mark) than in any machine with top speeds too slow for them.... I toyed with the idea of an air drill holder for my little Sherline tabletop milling machine for stuff like carving small parts for fishing reels, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Air powered mini drill heads and super rigid fixtures. Ya gotta be able to spin em at like 100,000 rpms for best results. Even .007" drill bits do better in a hand held dremel (if ya can hit the mark) than in any machine with top speeds too slow for them.... I toyed with the idea of an air drill holder for my little Sherline tabletop milling machine for stuff like carving small parts for fishing reels, etc. Cool... GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Fill 'Em 67797 Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Y'all can borrow one of my dental drills, if you want. They spin real fast! 'Course they make that high-pitched sound nobody likes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Dan Dawkins Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I personally like how the Merwin Hulbert Co. advertised "Our parts interchange with originals" long before they produced the first part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan Cord Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 I wonder how long it took Norinco to copy a 97 from start to finish production? This really does not seem like it should that hard with modern technology. Norinco went through 3 or 4 generations before they came up with anything close to reliable as I recall. Good news is they are really cheap, bad news is they are really cheap. Cheap is not Good and Good is not Cheap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Newer MH photos posted - see this other thread http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=174903 Looks like some progress..... LL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitterroot Jake, SASS #9532 Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Hey Guys, Let's give them a little time for R&D and such. Most of you seem to have forgotten that from the first pictures and prototypes, it was over 2 years before the Ruger Vaquero came on to the market, this from a well established gun marker. And the Vaquero was is nothing more than a modified Blackhawk, a gun that had been in production for many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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