Bringing a cocked firearm to the line

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

A good friend and I had a discussion at a recent shoot. I wanted to throw it out there as a way of educating my Cowboy friends. Here it is...

 

There was recently a discussion here on the Wire about bringing a cocked pistol or rifle to the firing line. All agreed that is was grounds for a SDQ.

 

What if a shooter brings a hammered shotgun to the line with the hammers cocked?

 

Fillmore

[Throckmorton,23149]

hammered shotguns may be staged with hammers back.bringing one to the line,open and empty of course,is no different than bringing a hammerless sxs to the line..the hammers are back on that one,just not visible.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

What if a shooter brings a hammered shotgun to the line with the hammers cocked?

 

Not a problem at all. Per shooters handbook. Time to read the rule book again.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Throckmorton,23149]

also,I''m not sure that bringing a rifle to the line,hammer back,is a sdq. I"ve seen shooters do it and not get dq'd. now,if a round was in the chamber..well,not sure,gonna look it up,but I"m thinking that that would certainly at least be a sdq.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

also,I''m not sure that bringing a rifle to the line,hammer back,is a sdq. I"ve seen shooters do it and not get dq'd. now,if a round was in the chamber..well,not sure,gonna look it up,but I"m thinking that that would certainly at least be a sdq.

I can 100% guarantee a hammer back on a rifle with the chamber empty, staged on the firing line, is a SDQ - got one at the Wild Bunch match at EOT this year. Youch, quite a penalty, just for a hammer that had stopped on the "half-cock" notch instead of falling all the way down on a '73 rifle. But, them's the rules. I'll look at the hammer every time from now on, before I start loading.

 

15. Rifles may be staged down range from the shooter with the magazine loaded, action closed,

hammer down and chamber empty.

 

And to find the penalty, you have to stretch a little, and look in the RO I manual, and realize that the closest description of the problem (hammer not fully down) is found under Stage DQ section of penalties:

 

* Failure to adhere to loading and unloading procedures.

 

Good luck, GJ

[I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321]

Pistols and rifle are loaded with hammer down on empty chamber when staged at the firing line. Shotgun staged with action open and chamber empty, can be loaded on the clock at the firing line. The difference is that your rifle and pistols are loaded with the required rounds, shotgun is staged open and empty, SG hammer can be cock when staged at the firing line.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

16. Shotguns are always staged open with magazine and chambers empty and are loaded on the clock unless the stage begins with the shotgun in the shooter’s hands. Mule eared shotguns can be cocked at the beginning of a scenario, whether staged or in the shooter’s hands. Long guns are never staged with their muzzles on the ground.

...

22. Movement is not allowed with a loaded, cocked firearm. Movement is defined by the basketball “traveling” rule. Whenever a shooter has a loaded, cocked firearm in hand, at least one foot must remain in place on the ground. 1st violation will result in Stage Disqualification; 2nd violation will result in Match Disqualification.

This includes leaving the loading table with a cocked loaded firearm.

 

also,I''m not sure that bringing a rifle to the line,hammer back,is a sdq. I"ve seen shooters do it and not get dq'd. now,if a round was in the chamber..well,not sure,gonna look it up,but I"m thinking that that would certainly at least be a sdq.

 

It's a SDQ whether there is a round under the hammer or not.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

Mule eared shotguns can be cocked at the beginning of a scenario, whether staged or in the shooter’s hands.

 

Thanks PWB. Does this mean that Mule-eared SGs can be cocked at the loading table and brought to the line cocked?

 

Fillmore

[Talon Jamison]

(are these really serious questions from someone with a 4-digit badge number?)

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

(are these really serious questions from someone with a 4-digit badge number?)

 

Yes. I am always looking to learn/remember. So are a lot of new shooters. In the years I have been shooting rules have changed, been reversed, and added. Your attitude is why some folks think CAS is acrimonious. I have over 3000 posts, you have 5. Welcome to the fire.

 

Fillmore

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Cocking the hammers on a "mule ear" shotgun simply levels the playing field with the "enclosed hammer", aka "hammerless" shotgun which cocks on OPENING. No shotgun is considered "cocked" for our purposes until it is in battery. You can, and I have, cocked the hammer on a hammer double at the LT, and chamber two rounds when you pick it up from the staged position, and still be legal to move UNTIL it is closed. Once in battery, yer basketball rule applies.

 

A rifle is a different deal BECAUSE all rifles with the action closed are to be considered loaded, even though we "know" we load the mag and never chamber a round at the LT. It don't matter, it's closed and if the hammer is back, we ASSUmE a round is under the hammer. (who's to say a cowpoke didn't have a brain spasm and rack it after loading?) it ain't "clear" until visibly cleared at the ULT.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

Cocking the hammers on a "mule ear" shotgun simply levels the playing field with the "enclosed hammer", aka "hammerless" shotgun which cocks on OPENING. No shotgun is considered "cocked" for our purposes until it is in battery. You can, and I have, cocked the hammer on a hammer double at the LT, and chamber two rounds when you pick it up from the staged position, and still be legal to move UNTIL it is closed. Once in battery, yer basketball rule applies.

 

A rifle is a different deal BECAUSE all rifles with the action closed are to be considered loaded, even though we "know" we load the mag and never chamber a round at the LT. It don't matter, it's closed and if the hammer is back, we ASSUmE a round is under the hammer. (who's to say a cowpoke didn't have a brain spasm and rack it after loading?)

I understand all you mentioned. But after a recent discussion here about cocked external hammers on pistols and rifles brought to the line I wondered about mule-eared SGs. When I recently asked a rules committee member, they didn't have a quick answer.

 

PWB quoted that hammers can be cocked at the beginning of the scenario. I don't recall a discussion that says when the scenario starts, 3rd in line at the loading table, next at the loading table, when leaving the loading table, or when staging the firearms?

 

Just asking?

 

Fillmore

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

I understand all you mentioned. But after a recent discussion here about cocked external hammers on pistols and rifles brought to the line I wondered about mule-eared SGs. When I recently asked a rules committee member, they didn't have a quick answer.

 

PWB quoted that hammers can be cocked at the beginning of the scenario. I don't recall a discussion that says when the scenario starts, 3rd in line at the loading table, next at the loading table, when leaving the loading table, or when staging the firearms?

 

Just asking?

 

Fillmore

I always cocked em after clearing at unload, and stowed the open, empty coach gun that way. Never was gigged for it, even shooting with some of the sharpest black badge folks around. Like I said, functionally a cocked OPEN hammered double is exactly the same as any other OPEN double. If ya doubt that, put yer finger on a firing pin of an open hammerless double and pull the trigger. You'll find out real quick.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

PWB quoted that hammers can be cocked at the beginning of the scenario. I don't recall a discussion that says when the scenario starts, 3rd in line at the loading table, next at the loading table, when leaving the loading table, or when staging the firearms?

 

The shotgun is handled open and empty from before you get to the loading table, to the time you carry the gun to the firing line and stage it, to the time you pick up that shotgun and load it to fire it. There is no time in that series of steps where you cannot have external hammers on the double cocked. It is totally your choice when you cock those external hammers!

 

Good luck, GJ

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

If you consider that 1897's, 1887's and hammerless SxS's are all COCKED upon opening the action, there is no reason for a "Mule-eared" shotgun to not be allowed the same consideration.

This applies at any time, on or off the firing line.

 

The addition to the 1999 SHB re: cocking a hammered SG "at the beginning of the scenario" was an early clarification that was made well before the "firing line" was defined.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

If you consider that 1897's, 1887's and hammerless SxS's are all COCKED upon opening the action, there is no reason for a "Mule-eared" shotgun to not be allowed the same consideration.

This applies at any time, on or off the firing line.

 

The addition to the 1999 SHB re: cocking a hammered SG "at the beginning of the scenario" was an early clarification that was made well before the "firing line" was defined.

Thanks PWB. It seems that some rewording is in order then to allow AJ to cock his muley at the unloading table. Good nite everybody.

 

Regards,

Fillmore

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Thanks PWB. It seems that some rewording is in order then to allow AJ to cock his muley at the unloading table. Good nite everybody.

 

Regards,

Fillmore

 

Not really...all other long guns are taken from the ULT cocked with actions OPEN.

The allowance stated for mule-eared SxS's isn't exclusive (i.e. limited to the 'beginning of the scenario')

[Curly Red Ryder]

Hi PWB,

 

may be I'm a little slow, but I just understood from this post what the handbook meant by "mule-eared" shotgun... only a common external hammered SxS (I think I understood well).

 

But in the weapon history, mule-eared guns are not really that. They are external hammered guns but with hammer(s) LATERAL and perpendicular to the side of the gun when cocked. It seems to me that mule-eared SG is not what we usually use in the CAS. I cannot remember having seen or heard af any "mule-eared SxS shotgun" as this style of hammers is mostly found on old percussion rifles or fowlers of the early 19th century and on the turret rifles of this period.

 

This word "mule-eared" in the SHB is very perturbing (mostly for non American members who cannot have a good knowledge of the guns) and should be changed to "external hammered", term which cover the common external hammerd SxS and the "true mule-eared" if any can exists and be used by cowboys.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Curly, what you are thinking of I believe are side-hammer or under-hammer guns. In past eras also known as mule-ear guns. Over here in the modern age we use mule-ear, rabbit ear and external hammer interchangeably these days.

 

FC, it has always been legal to come to the line or even to come to the LT with the hammers cocked on 2rows. That only helps you for the first two shots. What the world needs is a good external hammer sgun that cocks the hammers automatically for you when the gun breaks open.

 

Which brings up the question, would such a critter be legal for CC or Frontiersman? Of course and no question it would be legal in all categories hammmerless guns are legal in.

[Cowboy Junky]

My SKB is opened and cocked at all times…..loading table, staged, un-loading table and even the gun cart. The only time it isn’t is for a brief moment on the firing line......and I'm workin' on making that even less.

[gunrunner joe #17093]

OK what about the hammer on a 97 up or down. If SXS down then a 97 should be down to. a hammer is a hammer ???????????????????????????

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

I call 'em 'rabbit' ears

 

GG ~

[Old Scatterbrain]

Consider:

 

A shotgun must be stored/carried with the action open. In the case of a hammerless, this means cocked as well.

 

A lever-action rifle must be stored/carried with the action open. Opening the action (levering) cocks the hammer.

 

In either case, the action cannot be open and the gun not be cocked. I guess shotguns can be decocked? Leverguns cannot, as far as I can figure.

 

So, the rule is the same. Both gun types are cocked when the action is open. To say a hammered shotgun must be uncocked when open would be inconsistent.

 

 

On a side note, aren't most semi-autos cocked by "opening" the action? AR-15, M1911, M92... just sayin'.

[Rye Miles #13621]

also,I''m not sure that bringing a rifle to the line,hammer back,is a sdq. I"ve seen shooters do it and not get dq'd. now,if a round was in the chamber..well,not sure,gonna look it up,but I"m thinking that that would certainly at least be a sdq.

 

 

How would one know that there is or is not a round in the chamber? That's why it's a SDQ. Unsafe handling of firerams is a NO-NO! All that has to happen is just one time someone bringing a cocked rifle to the firing line with a round in the chamber and finger on the trigger and then...BAM. Someone gits hurt or worse!

[Snakebite]

(are these really serious questions from someone with a 4-digit badge number?)

 

"........as a way of educating my Cowboy friends."

 

Filmore and I have discussed this already. He is just putting it out here to educate others.

 

Snakebite

[Korupt Karl]

A hammered double is an open firearm. A cocked pistol or rifle is closed.....there were two SDQ's at a recent regional one was a full cock and the other a half cock. The point being is a hammered double has the action open....a pistol or rifle could possibly have a round under the chamber.

 

I feel that the loading officer should be doing his/her job, but the responsibility falls on the shooter.

 

 

 

KK

[Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L]

 

 

Which brings up the question, would such a critter be legal for CC or Frontiersman? Of course and no question it would be legal in all categories hammmerless guns are legal in.

External hammer shotguns are not required for Frontiersman, so such a gun would be legal there. It would be illegal in CC

[Shooting Bull]

OK what about the hammer on a 97 up or down. If SXS down then a 97 should be down to. a hammer is a hammer ???????????????????????????

 

 

I'm not sure I understand your question. The only time the hammer(s) on ANY shotgun is down is when you pull the trigger during a stage. Other than that, the action is open therefore, the hammer is back. But again, as with ALL shotguns, the action is open.

[John Boy]

16. Shotguns are always staged open with magazine and chambers empty and are loaded on the clock unless the stage begins with the shotgun in the shooter’s hands. Mule eared shotguns can be cocked at the beginning of a scenario, whether staged or in the shooter’s hands. Long guns are never staged with their muzzles on the ground.

RO Committee, maybe it is time also to use the correct terminology in the Handbook ... There is no such term used in correct firearms terminology as 'Mule Eared Shotguns'. This is a buzz word. The correct term is 'External Hammer Shotguns or shotguns with 'External Hammers' vrs shotguns with internal hammers

Also, when just referring to the hammers, the term commonly used is 'External Cocks'. Been termed as such since the 1800's, by famous gun makers, starting with those from Great Britain. Contact a vendor selling external hammers and ask for Mule Ears ... they will say 'WHAT? Chuckle, Chuckle'

Further, there many different shaped variations of external hammers, depending on the maker of the shotgun and none are described as Mule Ears or even look like mule ears.

[gunrunner joe #17093]

Just trying to see Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 answer wood be to that.if all hammer gun are the same. thank you gunrunner joe

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hello!

 

Guess I got up on the wrong side of the bed...

 

Sarcasm, rudeness, and pot stirring by someone who does not list a SASS number or location is bad form.

 

Brother Feelmore, any rule questions are worthy of bandwidth.

 

 

Sister Allie

[J-BAR #18287]

Are rifles with factory installed rebounding hammers still ok to use?

[Guest Winchester Jack, SASS #70195]

I started with a 20 gauge Rossi hammered double and from almost day one was told to cock both hammers on my shotgun AT the loading table. Unfortunately you cant do that with the little Rossi when the gun is open (the latch is in the way) Once I swithced to a 12 gauge hammered double I was able to cock both hammers with the gun open at the loading table and make the first 2 shots much faster. Its a great bit of information to any cowboy/cowgirl using a hammered double.

[Fingers McGee]

External hammer shotguns are not required for Frontiersman, so such a gun would be legal there. It would be illegal in CC

 

Huh?

 

Hammered and boxlock double, and lever action are the only shotguns allowed in Frontiersman and the hammered double or lever action are only shotguns allowed in CC. SHB page 15

 

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

"boxlock" is what we call hammerless (locks integral to the receiver rather than bolt-on). So ANY SXS is legal for frontiersman