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Trigger Finger Location


SIESTA, SASS #21303

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I've had one or two SDQs for firing before I was completely on target, and I have to say they were deserved. I've got a bad habit that I'm desperately trying to break, of having my finger on the trigger as I draw, which could potentially be disastrous. I'd rather be slow and have all my toes and other appendages, than fast and ****less.

Gee most of us have the hammer down on an empty chamber until we get the gun to at least a 45 degree angle from the ground?? How can it go off? Another reason to not cock a pistol until it is almost on the target or cycle a rifle until it is at the shoulder (which will get you a match DQ at some locations anyway). I have had several ADs with my shotgun as I am loading it and about half the time hit the target anyway. The key to all of these is to keep the darn barrel pointing at the target or very close as much as possible.

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1/10 of a second? Wow!! That would be a cycle time of 600 round per minute. Can you post video!

BJT -

Please read this - and pay attention to what it says about Condition 3 and the Israeli Draw. And about how that can be done by an expert FASTER than most people can do a Condition 1 draw. I did carry a 1911 for several years for personal defense. And I practiced drawing and racking the slide, and could do so VERY fast. I don't know if it was 1/10 of a second or half a second - but it was very very fast. And please don't be semi-intelligent to go along with semi-automatic and assume that the Israelis don't have a REASON for training their forces this way! The REASON is to keep from blowing their frigging foot off!

 

http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm

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Rancid, what is so special about the Israeli draw? Bring yourself on down to Texas and we'll show ya the Border Sfift draw. ANd while ya are here, I'd like to impose on ya to teach me to rack the slide in one tenth of a second. If we can't believe that (as you say) how can we believe the other stuff ya are spouting off?

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I did read the article about the different level of conditions to carry a 1911.

 

"This draw is usually called "the Israeli draw" since it was taught by Israeli security and defense forces. Some of the real expert trainers can do an Israeli draw faster than most of us can do a simple draw, but for most of us, the Israeli draw adds a degree of complexity, an extra step, and an opening for mistakes in the process of getting the front sight onto the target."

 

According to this, SOME of the real expert trainers, can do the Israeli draw faster than most of us (average shooter). Not even all of the expert trainers are faster than the average shooter when using the Israeli draw. For most of, us using the Israeli draw, we will be delayed in getting the sights on the target. According to your source. Smokin Gator

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I already admitted to not doing it in 1/10th of a second - but well under a second.

I am trying to talk to a brick wall here.

All I am trying to say is that we should be a safe as humanly possible.

Condition 1 is not. Condition 3 is safer.

If y'all want to become the one-legged wild bunch, more power to you.

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In that situation, if you're idiot enough to even REACH for your concealed carry piece, you're a DEAD MAN. If the bad guy already has you covered, you're just plain screwed - if not, you have the tenth of a second time it takes to rack the slide!

 

It's always facinating when folks on the wire assume my capabilities and limitations without ever having met me. :rolleyes:

 

Ok, I'm done with this discussion. It appears that neither viewpoint will be tolerated.

 

Good Day!

 

Chick

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This thread has kind of jumped the tracks, so I'll do my part to try to get back to the original question. I've always believed and practiced the rule: "Your finger stays off of the trigger until you are prepared to destroy whatever the weapon is aimed at".

 

I have a lot of firearms without manual safeties, and I don't use the safeties on the ones that have them anyways. My safety is my trigger finger. If you follow the above rule, any gun is as safe as it needs to be.

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I use safety devices but safe practice is as Frank states.

 

You will never curse the CAS practice of drawing a handgun with a finger on the trigger more than when you are TO for someone who holsters a cocked gun. I am completely lost as to why this game tolerates the practice.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

This thread has kind of jumped the tracks, so I'll do my part to try to get back to the original question. I've always believed and practiced the rule: "Your finger stays off of the trigger until you are prepared to destroy whatever the weapon is aimed at".

 

I have a lot of firearms without manual safeties, and I don't use the safeties on the ones that have them anyways. My safety is my trigger finger. If you follow the above rule, any gun is as safe as it needs to be.

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Bad Hand -

Please read this - Glocks are single-action pistols.

 

http://members.cox.net/guntraining/glocks.htm

That was an informative article, too bad it was in correct. The Glock is a striker fired semi automatic pistol, it doesn't have a hammer so the part about manually cocking the hammer is moot. It doesn't need a decocking lever since it is never actually "cocked" until just before the round is fired. If you don't complete the the trigger pull, the striker returns to the "uncocked" position. Like many other DAOs it lacks a second strike capability since the action of the slide is necessary to "pre cock" the striker. How does that differ from your Kahr that you were touting?

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Anyone who carries a 1911 cocked and locked is ... well, let's just say "less than real smart". Doing so means you're relying totally on a mechanical safety to keep from blowing a hole in your lower anatomy, and any mechanical safety can FAIL. If it CAN fail, it WILL fail ... it's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when". And I will make no bones about it, anyone who carries a 1911 cocked and with the safety off is utterly STUPID.

 

Also, contrary to what most people believe, 95%++ of the "Double Action Only" automatics sold today are actually SINGLE-ACTION pistols. If the hammer/striker is fully cocked when slide is racked, it is a SINGLE-ACTION pistol. Period. The only thing keeping that hammer/striker from dropping on the primer is either a hammer block or striker block, both of which are MECHANICAL SAFETIES. Their long trigger pulls DO NOT cock the gun! Their long trigger pulls simply deactivate the safety and drop the hammer/striker! In my humble opinion, one is an absolute fool to carry ANY of these guns with a round up the pipe! The ONLY automatic that I know of on the market today that is a TRUE double-action only pistol are those made by Kahr. Kahr pistols DO NOT fully cock the striker when the slide is racked. The trigger pull on a Kahr pistol actually cocks the striker. The striker is NEVER COCKED except MOMENTARILY WHEN THE TRIGGER IS PULLED. That's why I carry a Kahr MK40 Elite for my concealed carry gun, and also why that gun is the ONLY automatic that I own.

 

 

Please lets get one thing straight. DOUBLE ACTION might better be called "double acting' because the triger does two things, cocks and fires the gun, double acting upon the action. SINGLE ACTION means pulling the trigger ONLY does one thing, which happens AFTER ya do something else. The trigger is single acting. it does one thing only, and cannot cock the gun.

 

So as bassackwards as it sounds, if ya do one thing to fire the gun (like a DA revolver), it's double action. (S&W invented the term to describe their self-cocking revolver of 1880. It was the model name of the gun) SINGLE ACTION might better be called "single acting" because the trigger only does one thing, and ya have to do something else to cock the gun.

 

A beretta semi auto pistol is DOUBLE ACTION on the first shot (long trigger pull cocks the hammer and fires the gun) and SINGLE ACTION on shots made thereafter, as the gun is already cocked by the cycling slide.

 

So the Glock is really a single action on the first shot (you have to rack the slide to chamber the first round and partially cock the striker) and double action therefter.

In a sense the 1911 is the same EXCEPT we have the ability to decock the gun after the initial chamber loading (a decidedly unsafe practice best avoided), which would then render the loaded gun SINGLE ACTION, requiring the hammer to be cocked manually just like a SAA.

 

In practice, semis are classed differently, mostly based on the POTENTIAL to cock the hammer with the trigger, (ie. the traditional DA/SA gun like a beretta) or not (1911/glock/etc. Those guns where you may not cock the gun with the trigger are SINGLE ACTION, because the trigger can only do one thing, and ya have to do something else besides to cock the gun.....

 

 

FWIW EVERY local PD that issues 1911 type guns (the S&W version is common) has their men carry cocked and locked, something easily seen as the hammer is back when the gun is holstered.....

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"Anyone who carries a 1911 cocked and locked is ... well, let's just say "less than real smart". Doing so means you're relying totally on a mechanical safety to keep from blowing a hole in your lower anatomy, and any mechanical safety can FAIL. If it CAN fail, it WILL fail ... it's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when". And I will make no bones about it, anyone who carries a 1911 cocked and with the safety off is utterly STUPID."

 

Cocked and locked means the safety is ON. Yes, it would be unwise to carry a 1911 with the hammer cocked and the safety off...but that is not what cocked and locked means. And while you may have a point about relying soley on a mechanical safety, you seem to think the safety, once applied, can become disengaged at any moment and the gun will somehow gain the ability to fire itself. All 1911 designs have the additional grip safety, and the newer Colts have a firing pin safety as well. So has it been your experience that all of these redundant safety features are going to fail at the same time? Why haven't we heard of that happening before? Why didn't Colt and all the other manufacturers change the design over the years if it was so inherently unsafe? How are so many competitive shooters able to make a living with the gun and not have any problems whatsoever with cocked and locked carry?

 

You insult millions of shooters when you call them stupid for carring a particular firearm the way it was designed to be carried. If you aren't comfortable with it, fine...stick with a single action so you'll feel safer. But I say you are the ignorant one.

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"Anyone who carries a 1911 cocked and locked is ... well, let's just say "less than real smart". Doing so means you're relying totally on a mechanical safety to keep from blowing a hole in your lower anatomy, and any mechanical safety can FAIL. If it CAN fail, it WILL fail ... it's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when". And I will make no bones about it, anyone who carries a 1911 cocked and with the safety off is utterly STUPID."

 

Cocked and locked means the safety is ON. Yes, it would be unwise to carry a 1911 with the hammer cocked and the safety off...but that is not what cocked and locked means. And while you may have a point about relying soley on a mechanical safety, you seem to think the safety, once applied, can become disengaged at any moment and the gun will somehow gain the ability to fire itself. All 1911 designs have the additional grip safety, and the newer Colts have a firing pin safety as well. So has it been your experience that all of these redundant safety features are going to fail at the same time? Why haven't we heard of that happening before? Why didn't Colt and all the other manufacturers change the design over the years if it was so inherently unsafe? How are so many competitive shooters able to make a living with the gun and not have any problems whatsoever with cocked and locked carry?

 

You insult millions of shooters when you call them stupid for carring a particular firearm the way it was designed to be carried. If you aren't comfortable with it, fine...stick with a single action so you'll feel safer. But I say you are the ignorant one.

 

 

YUP!

 

Further, I would encourage anyone to READ A 1911 MANUAL if they even think about decocking a loaded 1911. IF YOU DO IT, sooner or later you will blow a hole in something. If cocked and locked scares ya, EITHER buy a DA/SA auto with a decocker, OR carry yer 1911 with an empty chamber and forgo the ability to respond promptly to a threat unless yer super trained by Moussad ;)

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"Anyone who carries a 1911 cocked and locked is ... well, let's just say "less than real smart". Doing so means you're relying totally on a mechanical safety to keep from blowing a hole in your lower anatomy, and any mechanical safety can FAIL. If it CAN fail, it WILL fail ... it's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when". And I will make no bones about it, anyone who carries a 1911 cocked and with the safety off is utterly STUPID."

 

Cocked and locked means the safety is ON. Yes, it would be unwise to carry a 1911 with the hammer cocked and the safety off...but that is not what cocked and locked means. And while you may have a point about relying soley on a mechanical safety, you seem to think the safety, once applied, can become disengaged at any moment and the gun will somehow gain the ability to fire itself. All 1911 designs have the additional grip safety, and the newer Colts have a firing pin safety as well. So has it been your experience that all of these redundant safety features are going to fail at the same time? Why haven't we heard of that happening before? Why didn't Colt and all the other manufacturers change the design over the years if it was so inherently unsafe? How are so many competitive shooters able to make a living with the gun and not have any problems whatsoever with cocked and locked carry?

 

You insult millions of shooters when you call them stupid for carring a particular firearm the way it was designed to be carried. If you aren't comfortable with it, fine...stick with a single action so you'll feel safer. But I say you are the ignorant one.

 

OK, so I'm ignorant.

But I am not so ignorant as to not believe that as soon as your hand grabs that grip on the draw, you have eliminated one safety.

I am not so ignorant as to believe that just because you flipped the safety on that it is guaranteed to STILL be on once it is stuffed into your holster.

I am not so ignorant as to believe that even if that safey remained on while being stuffed into the holster that it will not get accidentally released while the gun is being drawn.

I am not so ignorant as to question that once both of those safeties have been eliminated, that the firing pin safety is moot if you accidentally pull the trigger.

And I am sure that I will make you all very happy when I say that personally I will never be anywhere close to any Wild Bunch shoot (or any other competition) so long as Condition 1 is allowed there.

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Stick to Wild Bunch, condition 1 is not allowed.

 

Avoid IPSC, IDPA, Steel Challenge and all the other semi-auto games where the 1911 is used. I don't think all the folks in all those game are ignorant.

 

Know what I mean?

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

 

OK, so I'm ignorant.

But I am not so ignorant as to not believe that as soon as your hand grabs that grip on the draw, you have eliminated one safety.

I am not so ignorant as to believe that just because you flipped the safety on that it is guaranteed to STILL be on once it is stuffed into your holster.

I am not so ignorant as to believe that even if that safey remained on while being stuffed into the holster that it will not get accidentally released while the gun is being drawn.

I am not so ignorant as to question that once both of those safeties have been eliminated, that the firing pin safety is moot if you accidentally pull the trigger.

And I am sure that I will make you all very happy when I say that personally I will never be anywhere close to any Wild Bunch shoot (or any other competition) so long as Condition 1 is allowed there.

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OK, so I'm ignorant. WHODA thunk it?

 

But I am so ignorant ----------

 

I am so ignorant as to believe ---------

 

I am so ignorant as to believe ---

 

I am so ignorant as to question ---------------

 

And I am sure that I will make you all very happy when I say that personally I will never be anywhere close to any Wild Bunch shoot (or any other competition) so long as Condition 1 is allowed there.

 

 

 

Now you're talking. No disagreement here. :lol:

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  • 1 month later...

Stick to Wild Bunch, condition 1 is not allowed.

 

Avoid IPSC, IDPA, Steel Challenge and all the other semi-auto games where the 1911 is used. I don't think all the folks in all those game are ignorant.

 

Know what I mean?

 

Cheers,

BJT

Well, I am glad to see someone finally pointing out that those who write the rules for SASS Wild Bunch expressly forbid ever holstering a 1911 other than with the hammer down on an empty chamber.

 

Don’t you suppose there is a REASON for that? Don’t you suppose that reason is SAFETY?

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Anyone who carries a 1911 cocked and locked is ... well, let's just say "less than real smart". Doing so means you're relying totally on a mechanical safety to keep from blowing a hole in your lower anatomy, and any mechanical safety can FAIL. If it CAN fail, it WILL fail ... it's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when". And I will make no bones about it, anyone who carries a 1911 cocked and with the safety off is utterly STUPID.

 

Also, contrary to what most people believe, 95%++ of the "Double Action Only" automatics sold today are actually SINGLE-ACTION pistols. If the hammer/striker is fully cocked when slide is racked, it is a SINGLE-ACTION pistol. Period. The only thing keeping that hammer/striker from dropping on the primer is either a hammer block or striker block, both of which are MECHANICAL SAFETIES. Their long trigger pulls DO NOT cock the gun! Their long trigger pulls simply deactivate the safety and drop the hammer/striker! In my humble opinion, one is an absolute fool to carry ANY of these guns with a round up the pipe! The ONLY automatic that I know of on the market today that is a TRUE double-action only pistol are those made by Kahr. Kahr pistols DO NOT fully cock the striker when the slide is racked. The trigger pull on a Kahr pistol actually cocks the striker. The striker is NEVER COCKED except MOMENTARILY WHEN THE TRIGGER IS PULLED. That's why I carry a Kahr MK40 Elite for my concealed carry gun, and also why that gun is the ONLY automatic that I own.

 

I carried a 1911 as an LEO, it was/is always "cocked-n-locked", as the one on me now is, as it was meant to be carried by JMB.

Making the statement that you did, YOU have truely shown all of the SASS forum, who's the "STUPID" one is. :rolleyes:

Good day,

LG

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Well, I am glad to see someone finally pointing out that those who write the rules for SASS Wild Bunch expressly forbid ever holstering a 1911 other than with the hammer down on an empty chamber.

 

Don’t you suppose there is a REASON for that? Don’t you suppose that reason is SAFETY?

 

Dang, you sure must be drinking someones "kool-aide"(lies)to believe all that crap :rolleyes:

OH-BTW, where did you come up with the idea that "cocked-n-locked" carry of a 1911 is with the thumb safety OFF?

The thumb safety is ALWAYS engaged till the draw.

Cheers,

LG

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I was taught back in the day when the model 10 S&W was king to keep my finger off the trigger until I was ready to shoot nothing has changed to this day.

That said I think that the 1911 is one of the worst guns for the average person, LEO or not to carry. It’s a gun that requires way more training and practice than the average shooter is willing to put in. As much as I hated them when they first came out I have come to respect the Glock, there is a reason that the majority of the police in this country carry a Glock or one of it’s clones.

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BJT -

Please read this - and pay attention to what it says about Condition 3 and the Israeli Draw. And about how that can be done by an expert FASTER than most people can do a Condition 1 draw. I did carry a 1911 for several years for personal defense. And I practiced drawing and racking the slide, and could do so VERY fast. I don't know if it was 1/10 of a second or half a second - but it was very very fast. And please don't be semi-intelligent to go along with semi-automatic and assume that the Israelis don't have a REASON for training their forces this way! The REASON is to keep from blowing their frigging foot off!

 

http://www.sightm191..._conditions.htm

 

 

Actually the reason is not safety but the manual of arms. With Battlefield exposure to many different semi-automatic weapons the Israeli draw works on all of them. They pick up a pistol and they draw every one the same way. They don't have to remember which one they are carrying today or which model they picked up on the battlefield. It works on them all.

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Most cops are NOT gun people ;)

The 1911, with the CORRECT training, is the best fighting handgun made. IMNSHO

Many people ARE willing to go the extra mile to train. Why hold them back?

 

Respectfully,

LG

 

Who is holding anyone back? If your willing to take the time to train with it the 1911 is a great gun, I own 5 of them as a matter of fact. It however is not a gun for the average shooter, for the average shooter a Glock or one of its cousins is a much better choice

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Anyone who carries a 1911 cocked and locked is ... well, let's just say "less than real smart". Doing so means you're relying totally on a mechanical safety to keep from blowing a hole in your lower

<SNIP>

also why that gun is the ONLY automatic that I own.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, however contrary to the years of evidence, but you're not entitled to your own facts, nor to name call.

 

Firearms are tools and all tools have value and risk, whether they be a hammer or a pistol. All tools can fail, as can humans. All tools have

value and purpose, and intelligent well adjusted humans evaluate a tools capability and effectiveness and weigh that against the potential risks

of it failing. Most of us are quite capable of that calculus and decide that the risk - however frightening it is to some, is not significant

enough to outweigh the obvious advantage.

 

Please feel as smug as you like for carrying a Kahr, I carry one also, but please do not denigrate me in any way when I carry a 1911 or my

Hi-Power in condition 1. You are not responsible for my well being; I am, and I trust my judgment, not yours.

 

Shadow Catcher

p.s. - I have to say that after looking back at this whole thread . . . I'm beginning to feel like I'm wasting my time responding to a Troll . . .

Shoot - usually I just shine them folks on . . .ah well, maybe it's time for a glass of wine . . . .

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This was a great thread. I enjoyed the comments and can't help but add my own.

 

I'm a 30-year LEO. I've never heard a law enforcement trainer advocate fingers on the trigger. The concept of keeping the finger outside of the trigger guard until ready to fire has not changed.

 

Approximately 70% of our officers are under the age of 35 (and does that ever make me feel old.) It is a Glock generation. Most of our young officers have never owned a wheel gun, and even more don't even know what a 1911 is. I carry a Kimber 1911.....cocked and locked....but I had to explain it to the chief.

 

I very much enjoyed the reference to the Glock article on single action/ double action, etc. Thanks

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The Glock and Kahr strikers are actually under a preload, as is the S&W M&P. The only pistol out there that doesn't preload the striker is the Diamondback.

 

In this video http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9f4_1293059256 you can see the where the striker spring is partially compressed when the gun is in battery, and gets fully compressed just before release.

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