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Trigger Finger Location


SIESTA, SASS #21303

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There are so many police and criminal investigation shows on TV anymore that show the officers or agents going through search procedures with their weapons ready and their trigger finger along side of the trigger guard. Is this something that is taught these days? I have always put my finger on the trigger as I am bringing the gun up, but I guess in this sport you plan to take the shot as soon as you can get on target. What do you do?

 

Siesta

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There are so many police and criminal investigation shows on TV anymore that show the officers or agents going through search procedures with their weapons ready and their trigger finger along side of the trigger guard. Is this something that is taught these days? I have always put my finger on the trigger as I am bringing the gun up, but I guess in this sport you plan to take the shot as soon as you can get on target. What do you do?

 

Siesta

That is the current industry standard, so to speak. The finger is only on the trigger, when actually pulling the trigger. Army, marines, probably the other branches teach this, as do most civilian trainers. Can't speak for law enforcement, but I'd be surprised to find otherwise.

 

EDIT I can't swearto it, but I believe Jeff Cooper started this decades ago.

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Don't know what is taught, but if I were the lead on a building entry, I would sure like to know that the guy BEHIND ME has his finger off the trigger. But I'm just a civilian, so what do I know?

 

Buena suerte,

eGG

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I've had one or two SDQs for firing before I was completely on target, and I have to say they were deserved. I've got a bad habit that I'm desperately trying to break, of having my finger on the trigger as I draw, which could potentially be disastrous. I'd rather be slow and have all my toes and other appendages, than fast and ****less.

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There are so many police and criminal investigation shows on TV anymore that show the officers or agents going through search procedures with their weapons ready and their trigger finger along side of the trigger guard. Is this something that is taught these days? I have always put my finger on the trigger as I am bringing the gun up, but I guess in this sport you plan to take the shot as soon as you can get on target. What do you do?

 

Siesta

 

I was taught that in the Academy in 75.

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With the single action revolver I have my finger in the trigger guard when drawing the gun, but wait to cock the hammer when I on/near on target.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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NRA and Hunter Safety training programs also make a big deal about keeping finger outside the trigger guard until you have a target in view and are raising firearm to the sight line. Wild Bunch shooting has penalties for moving with finger in the trigger guard or changing mags with the finger in. So, I'm always trying to keep that finger under control and off the trigger until any foot movement has stopped, and gun is pointed toward target.

 

Good luck, GJ

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If you're asking regarding CAS: My finger goes into the trigger guard when I draw. It's a single action; it won't shoot until it is cocked. Proper practice for this game when it comes to our pistols, IMO, is about when/how you cock them.

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If you're asking regarding CAS: My finger goes into the trigger guard when I draw. It's a single action; it won't shoot until it is cocked. Proper practice for this game when it comes to our pistols, IMO, is about when/how you cock them.

 

My thinking too..

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Single action is a whole different world. Your hammer is your "safety". DA revolver the long trigger pull is the safety. Same with SA/DA conventional semi or modern "safe trigger" systems like a Glock. Those are two different disciplines requiring different protocols.

 

To me, a 1911 is the odd duck in operation, as it is usually carrier cocked and locked, so it CAN be treated like a SA revolver on the first shot, but on subsequent shots it is treated like a traditional semi, as it is ready to fire, and yer trigger finger need be out of the guard unless yer about to shoot because there is only the short trigger pull and no safety. The 1911 or other bottom feeder with SA second shot requires the MOST discipline....

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Good Lord! What ever happened to gun safety rule #3:

 

1. All guns are always loaded.

2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

4. Always be sure of your target and what's beyond it.

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:FlagAm: I am retired LE and a SASS shooter. The trigger finger is never on triger until that decision is made to shoot. Too many bad things may occur with your finger on the trigger, mechanical safeties may fail, you may stumble and an accidental weapon discharge may take place. Remember to never point any firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy or kill. Given the close proximity of tactical and everyday police situations you do not want to shoot one another by accident, seen it twice in 27 years. Its just a very safe and sound habit to get into. On a civilian level the same level of safe gun handling is a must, I've seen too many horrific episodes of "I didn't mean to!", :FlagAm: Yoos-to-be-Kid
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Law enforcement gun handling is different than recreational shooting. When I started as a cop in 1975, we were taught to keep our finger out of the trigger guard. When your gun is out of the holster, it can be a highly charged situation, and you are pointing the gun at a suspect, shouting commands, and trying to keep from getting hurt. An unintentional discharge can be tragic.

 

You see this techique on TV cop shows because the technical advisors have passed it along.

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Guys, what we train COPS to do is to use the guns cops use in a safe manner. it's been a very long time since cops used a SA revolver.

What works best with a DA revolver or a semi is not the same as what works best with a SA revolver. A SA revolver CAN NOT be fired with the hammer down, no matter how hard you pull the trigger. But if you REACH FOR the trigger AFTER it is cocked, working your finger into the guard with the hammer back, you can and will eventually have an AD. Finger in trigger guard, NOT TOUCHING the trgger, gun pointed downrange as you cock it, yer better off. FAR LESS movement and far less potential for trouble because you don't have to go fishing for the trigger while the gun is already cocked, the hammer hanging on that sensitive SA trigger.

 

if the back of the trigger finger is in contact with the trigger guard, inside the guard but off the trigger when you cock the gun, yer READY to go, no safety..... Don't cock until yer pointed downrange, and no matter what ya do, it can't shoot anybody....

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Watched a few minutes of "NCIS" the other night and Ziva was doing a building search. She was gripping her gun very low with her pinky just above the bottom of the grip and since her index finger is too short to reach the front of the trigger guard she extends it above the trigger on the slide. This causes her finger to be at almost a 45 degree angle to the rest of her hand and the gun. Looked very unnatural for anyone but especially a Mosaad trained agent. Yes, I know it is only a tv show, just thought the tech adviser would show her the correct grip.

 

As for my index finger position, on the draw it is outside the guard with the pad of the finger on the front of the guard. As the gun comes up I cock the gun and insert my finger into the guard at the front, when I get a sight picture I go for the trigger. When I am using modern fire arms like those new fangled 1911's :D my index finger is touching the front of the guard until I am ready to shoot.

 

Just my unscientific observations,

 

Smoke

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Was taught to index the trigger finger on the frame above the trigger guard, a horizontal surface not the trigger guard, a vertical surface. The possibility of the brain confusing the trigger guard for trigger under stress was what they were trying to avoid. Kind of like the time I was "parking" with a young lady and we had to clear the AO ASAP. Couldnt figure out why I couldnt get the car into gear until things calmed down just a bit. Seems I kept stomping on the hi/low switch instead of the clutch! :lol:

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Guys, what we train COPS to do is to use the guns cops use in a safe manner. it's been a very long time since cops used a SA revolver.

What works best with a DA revolver or a semi is not the same as what works best with a SA revolver. A SA revolver CAN NOT be fired with the hammer down, no matter how hard you pull the trigger. But if you REACH FOR the trigger AFTER it is cocked, working your finger into the guard with the hammer back, you can and will eventually have an AD. Finger in trigger guard, NOT TOUCHING the trgger, gun pointed downrange as you cock it, yer better off. FAR LESS movement and far less potential for trouble because you don't have to go fishing for the trigger while the gun is already cocked, the hammer hanging on that sensitive SA trigger.

 

if the back of the trigger finger is in contact with the trigger guard, inside the guard but off the trigger when you cock the gun, yer READY to go, no safety..... Don't cock until yer pointed downrange, and no matter what ya do, it can't shoot anybody....

 

+1

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Since I still find myself shooting for fun and duty, I opt to keep the same habits between the two as much as possible. For me, that means keeping the booger hook off the bang switch! I will probably continue that practice long after I have retired, as it is the safest. It is the way I teach my kids, and anyone else who asks my opinion.

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  • 5 weeks later...

Single action is a whole different world. Your hammer is your "safety". DA revolver the long trigger pull is the safety. Same with SA/DA conventional semi or modern "safe trigger" systems like a Glock. Those are two different disciplines requiring different protocols.

 

To me, a 1911 is the odd duck in operation, as it is usually carrier cocked and locked, so it CAN be treated like a SA revolver on the first shot, but on subsequent shots it is treated like a traditional semi, as it is ready to fire, and yer trigger finger need be out of the guard unless yer about to shoot because there is only the short trigger pull and no safety. The 1911 or other bottom feeder with SA second shot requires the MOST discipline....

Anyone who carries a 1911 cocked and locked is ... well, let's just say "less than real smart". Doing so means you're relying totally on a mechanical safety to keep from blowing a hole in your lower anatomy, and any mechanical safety can FAIL. If it CAN fail, it WILL fail ... it's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when". And I will make no bones about it, anyone who carries a 1911 cocked and with the safety off is utterly STUPID.

 

Also, contrary to what most people believe, 95%++ of the "Double Action Only" automatics sold today are actually SINGLE-ACTION pistols. If the hammer/striker is fully cocked when slide is racked, it is a SINGLE-ACTION pistol. Period. The only thing keeping that hammer/striker from dropping on the primer is either a hammer block or striker block, both of which are MECHANICAL SAFETIES. Their long trigger pulls DO NOT cock the gun! Their long trigger pulls simply deactivate the safety and drop the hammer/striker! In my humble opinion, one is an absolute fool to carry ANY of these guns with a round up the pipe! The ONLY automatic that I know of on the market today that is a TRUE double-action only pistol are those made by Kahr. Kahr pistols DO NOT fully cock the striker when the slide is racked. The trigger pull on a Kahr pistol actually cocks the striker. The striker is NEVER COCKED except MOMENTARILY WHEN THE TRIGGER IS PULLED. That's why I carry a Kahr MK40 Elite for my concealed carry gun, and also why that gun is the ONLY automatic that I own.

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In my humble opinion, one is an absolute fool to carry ANY of these guns with a round up the pipe!

 

Every Police Department I know that uses automatics carry it with a loaded chamber, whether it is a DAO, DA/SA, or a mechanism like the Glock. If you think you will have time to chamber a round when the SHTF, you are tragically mistaken.

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There are three basic rules of handling a gun.

 

1. Do not allow the muzzle to covering anything you are not willing to shoot.

2. Do not place a finger on the trigger till sights are on target.

3. Assume the gun is loaded.

 

This game violates all three. Self sweeping is allowed. Fingers are on triggers from the holster. Why do we think it is ok? Because we assume the hammer is down on an empty (unloaded).

 

We ignore this problem while issuing safety penalties for empty brass.

 

Go figure.

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Anyone who carries a 1911 cocked and locked is ... well, let's just say "less than real smart".

 

 

Really? John M. Browing, arguably one of the greatest gun designers in history, was "less than real smart"? Well, you're certainly welcome to your opinion. (As misguided as it may be.)

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Anyone who carries a 1911 cocked and locked is ... well, let's just say "less than real smart". Doing so means you're relying totally on a mechanical safety to keep from blowing a hole in your lower anatomy, and any mechanical safety can FAIL. If it CAN fail, it WILL fail ... it's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when". And I will make no bones about it, anyone who carries a 1911 cocked and with the safety off is utterly STUPID.

 

Also, contrary to what most people believe, 95%++ of the "Double Action Only" automatics sold today are actually SINGLE-ACTION pistols. If the hammer/striker is fully cocked when slide is racked, it is a SINGLE-ACTION pistol. Period. The only thing keeping that hammer/striker from dropping on the primer is either a hammer block or striker block, both of which are MECHANICAL SAFETIES. Their long trigger pulls DO NOT cock the gun! Their long trigger pulls simply deactivate the safety and drop the hammer/striker! In my humble opinion, one is an absolute fool to carry ANY of these guns with a round up the pipe! The ONLY automatic that I know of on the market today that is a TRUE double-action only pistol are those made by Kahr. Kahr pistols DO NOT fully cock the striker when the slide is racked. The trigger pull on a Kahr pistol actually cocks the striker. The striker is NEVER COCKED except MOMENTARILY WHEN THE TRIGGER IS PULLED. That's why I carry a Kahr MK40 Elite for my concealed carry gun, and also why that gun is the ONLY automatic that I own.

 

It is fools like the above that spout off with obviously zero knowledge of their subject matter that make life difficult on the rest of us.

The 1911 system has been in use for OVER a hundred years.

Where are these users that have blown all these holes in their anatomy from carrying cocked and locked?

In a hundred plus years of use, you would think the stories would be myriad.

 

As for mechanical safeties failing. It is possible, but even if a failure occurs, most will not go bang without a finger pulling the trigger.

Within any choice there is risk entailed.

If I walk out my front door, I could be struck by falling space debris.

If I drive my vehicle, I could be crushed by a monster truck.

And if I carry a firearm with a mechanical safety, the stars, the moons and the planets may all perfectly align and the gun may fire.

I go outside, drive my car and carry my gun secure in the knowledge that the risks of these things happening are miniscule.

 

Lastly - a Kahr is NOT a double action pistol (no matter what their ads say).

It is a striker fired pistol with slide activated preload and trigger completion.

 

A Kahr cannot fire from the simple pull of the trigger.

The trigger can only cause the gun to fire if certain conditions have been met i.e. the slide cycled to preload the striker.

Drop the hammer on a dud round that does not fire and does not cycle the slide.

Try to drop the hammer again on that same round.. Wont happen as the trigger alone cannot cock the striker.

The firearm requires the slide to cycle to AGAIN preload (half cock) the striker.

 

As the trigger can only perform a SINGLE function, meaning drop the hammer/ striker from a cocked or preloaded condition.

The Kahr is not a double action firearm.

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That's why I carry a Kahr MK40 Elite for my concealed carry gun, and also why that gun is the ONLY automatic that I own.

 

 

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, unless you've done some serious (probably illegal) modifications I'm betting that gun is a SEMI-automatic. But hey, you're the expert here.

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It is fools like the above that spout off with obviously zero knowledge of their subject matter that make life difficult on the rest of us.

The 1911 system has been in use for OVER a hundred years.

Where are these users that have blown all these holes in their anatomy from carrying cocked and locked?

In a hundred plus years of use, you would think the stories would be myriad.

 

As for mechanical safeties failing. It is possible, but even if a failure occurs, most will not go bang without a finger pulling the trigger.

Within any choice there is risk entailed.

If I walk out my front door, I could be struck by falling space debris.

If I drive my vehicle, I could be crushed by a monster truck.

And if I carry a firearm with a mechanical safety, the stars, the moons and the planets may all perfectly align and the gun may fire.

I go outside, drive my car and carry my gun secure in the knowledge that the risks of these things happening are miniscule.

 

Lastly - a Kahr is NOT a double action pistol (no matter what their ads say).

It is a striker fired pistol with slide activated preload and trigger completion.

 

A Kahr cannot fire from the simple pull of the trigger.

The trigger can only cause the gun to fire if certain conditions have been met i.e. the slide cycled to preload the striker.

Drop the hammer on a dud round that does not fire and does not cycle the slide.

Try to drop the hammer again on that same round.. Wont happen as the trigger alone cannot cock the striker.

The firearm requires the slide to cycle to AGAIN preload (half cock) the striker.

 

As the trigger can only perform a SINGLE function, meaning drop the hammer/ striker from a cocked or preloaded condition.

The Kahr is not a double action firearm.

 

Well, we're all entitled to our opinions.

But this particular fool will definitely NOT be one who ends up shooting himself with a cocked and supposedly locked 1911! I don't give a tinker whether people have been carrying them that way for 100 years or 1,000 years. Take your chances if you insist.

 

Yes, you are technically correct about the Kahr. But I think you are obscuring my point - that the striker is NEVER fully cocked with a Kahr unless the trigger is pulled.

 

As for my opinion of Browning: I think the man was an absolute genius. His design was for the safest gun he could come up with, which could be deployed rapidly by someone ALREADY IN HARM'S WAY - such as in war or law enforcement. Civilians are RARELY in harm's way. There is no sensible reason to PUT ourselves in harms way by packing a 1911 cocked and locked.

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There is no sensible reason to PUT ourselves in harms way by packing a 1911 cocked and locked.

 

 

Unless one is going into battle - whether to 'protect and serve' (LEO style) or to 'fight for his/her country'....

 

If I was I definately would be in the Condition 1 crowd!

 

GG ~

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There is no sensible reason to PUT ourselves in harms way by packing a 1911 cocked and locked.

I'll salute Jeff Cooper's conclusions (and many others in the field), and carry my 1911s condition 1, thanks. Two safeties is plenty for me, too, so no Series 80 firing pin safeties needed.

 

Good luck, GJ

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"Gimme your money or I'm gonna blow your head off."

 

"What a minute while I rack my 1911......" :rolleyes:

 

 

I do grasp my pistols (both my concealed carry and cowboy guns) with my finger outside the trigger guard when drawing. I do bring the pistol up to my chest and "push" it toward the target while acquiring the target. And yes, I've had a couple of times while cowboy shooting that the gun went "Bang!" before I intended it to do so. Usually, this just had to do with my attempts to shoot quickly. In at least two instances, I hit the target anyway. :blush: But, when executing the "basics" of the draw and reholster, you do produce an inherently safe means if the gun discharges when you didn't intend for it to do so. Nothing, however, can keep someone from putting a hole in themselves if they don't (1) follow simple safety procedures when drawing the gun or (2) don't utilize the safeties built into the gun.

 

 

Chick(whocarrieshissemiautopistolreadytofire)ahominy

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Yes, you are technically correct about the Kahr. But I think you are obscuring my point - that the striker is NEVER fully cocked with a Kahr unless the trigger is pulled.

 

]

Nor is a Glock striker fully cocked until you pull the trigger.

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Well, all -

I knew I was going to get dumped on from all quarters when I made my original reply.

But you are not going to change my opinion, and obviously I am not going to change yours.

I am a civilian. I have absolutely no need to pack a gun around cocked and locked. (For a game or otherwise).

If I was in the military, I would want no other sidearm other than the 1911 - because of its reliability and stopping power and speed to reload. But even if in the military, I would never carry it cocked and locked unless I was going into a situation that might require a split-second response such as house-to-house room-to-room fighting. There are VERY few situtations that won't allow for the tenth of a second it takes to rack the slide.

 

So I'm going to exit this thread now.

Call me names to your heart's content, take funny little digs at me such as "automatic" vs. "SEMI-automatic", carry on.

But my opinion stands.

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"Gimme your money or I'm gonna blow your head off."

 

"What a minute while I rack my 1911......" :rolleyes:

 

 

I do grasp my pistols (both my concealed carry and cowboy guns) with my finger outside the trigger guard when drawing. I do bring the pistol up to my chest and "push" it toward the target while acquiring the target. And yes, I've had a couple of times while cowboy shooting that the gun went "Bang!" before I intended it to do so. Usually, this just had to do with my attempts to shoot quickly. In at least two instances, I hit the target anyway. :blush: But, when executing the "basics" of the draw and reholster, you do produce an inherently safe means if the gun discharges when you didn't intend for it to do so. Nothing, however, can keep someone from putting a hole in themselves if they don't (1) follow simple safety procedures when drawing the gun or (2) don't utilize the safeties built into the gun.

 

 

Chick(whocarrieshissemiautopistolreadytofire)ahominy

 

In that situation, if you're idiot enough to even REACH for your concealed carry piece, you're a DEAD MAN. If the bad guy already has you covered, you're just plain screwed - if not, you have the tenth of a second time it takes to rack the slide!

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1/10 of a second? Wow!! That would be a cycle time of 600 round per minute. Can you post video!

 

In that situation, if you're idiot enough to even REACH for your concealed carry piece, you're a DEAD MAN. If the bad guy already has you covered, you're just plain screwed - if not, you have the tenth of a second time it takes to rack the slide!

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