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Old Scatterbrain

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Today I loaded up a dozen cartridges with 230gr bullets from the RCBS mold and enough Goex to compress the load just ever-so-slightly . I was surprised to find they had significantly more recoil and a louder report than my usual load of a 255gr Keith bullet and CENSORED grains of Unique. What gives?

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Today I loaded up a dozen cartridges with 230gr bullets from the RCBS mold and enough Goex to compress the load just ever-so-slightly . I was surprised to find they had significantly more recoil and a louder report than my usual load of a 255gr Keith bullet and 9 grains of Unique. What gives?

 

The perception of recoil can be affected by the loudness of the round. I have observed this several times and it was my experience, initially, when shooting black powder.

 

Having reported that empirical truth, I must also say that full loads of black powder are not wimpy loads. They get the job done as well as standard velocity smokeless rounds (not to be confused with light, action loads).

 

Pistols are a handful with full loads of black powder.

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Howdy

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of Black Powder. Yes, the report of Black Powder is very different than Smokeless. It is a deep boom, rather than the higher pitched crack of Smokeless. Nothing wrong, that's just the way it is.

 

Although your Unique load is certainly not a wimp load by any means, the recoil of Black Powder is different. It burns differently than Smokeless. The recoil from Black Powder is often perceived as more of a push than the sharp impulse from Smokeless.

 

If you want some more fun, try 250 grain bullets rather than 230. Even more boom and recoil.

 

Sure hope you used some good Black Powder lube on your bullets.

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The perception of recoil can be affected by the loudness of the round. I have observed this several times and it was my experience, initially, when shooting black powder.

 

Having reported that empirical truth, I must also say that full loads of black powder are not wimpy loads. They get the job done as well as standard velocity smokeless rounds (not to be confused with light, action loads).

 

Pistols are a handful with full loads of black powder.

I'm aware of that phenomenon, and I can't say with absolute certainty it had no effect. I think my perception may also be skewed by my past experience with an 1860 knockoff. Much lighter bullet, and I'm guessing a much smaller powder load. Yes?

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Howdy

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of Black Powder. Yes, the report of Black Powder is very different than Smokeless. It is a deep boom, rather than the higher pitched crack of Smokeless. Nothing wrong, that's just the way it is.

 

Although your Unique load is certainly not a wimp load by any means, the recoil of Black Powder is different. It burns differently than Smokeless. The recoil from Black Powder is often perceived as more of a push than the sharp impulse from Smokeless.

 

If you want some more fun, try 250 grain bullets rather than 230. Even more boom and recoil.

 

Sure hope you used some good Black Powder lube on your bullets.

That's the other thing I forgot to mention: I was expecting a muffled BOOM like the 1860 produced, but it was more of a sharp crack as one would expect from smokelsee.

 

I don't recall what they are lubed with, as they were given to me a few years back. It looks like a beeswax concoction. I kept the round count low for that reason, and the barrel doesn't look that bad, really. That was the main puropse of the experiment.

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Howdy Again

 

Yes, the 1860 takes a 44 cal round ball. Only weighs around 150 or 160 grains. Most 1860s have a max powder charge of about 30 grains. If you put in enough powder to be slightly compressed by a 230 grain bullet, you probably put in close to 40 grains. A heavier powder charge and a much heavier bullet produced more recoil and more noise.

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Howdy Again

 

Yes, the 1860 takes a 44 cal round ball. Only weighs around 150 or 160 grains. Most 1860s have a max powder charge of about 30 grains. If you put in enough powder to be slightly compressed by a 230 grain bullet, you probably put in close to 40 grains. A heavier powder charge and a much heavier bullet produced more recoil and more noise.

Actually, I was surprised to discover that 40 grains barely fit into the case, especially since Goex recommends that on their website. I will pm you the amount I used.

 

EDIT Meh, I think I'll just stick to stainless. The only reason I did this was to try to burn up an old can of Goex. Interesting it was, though.

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Howdy Again

 

Yes, the 1860 takes a 44 cal round ball. Only weighs around 150 or 160 grains. Most 1860s have a max powder charge of about 30 grains. If you put in enough powder to be slightly compressed by a 230 grain bullet, you probably put in close to 40 grains. A heavier powder charge and a much heavier bullet produced more recoil and more noise.

Kindly realize that according to a reprint of the Sears 1900 catalog, the .45 Colt black powder cartridges of the time were 255 gr. bullet over 40 gr. powder. Hope this helps. Yours. Nota John

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The 45 cases of old that had 40 grains of BP were Ballon Head cases and would hold that amount. Todays Starline will only do about 35 or so. You may load them with the 40 grains if you use a compression die. If you try to use the bullet the nose will be deformed.

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The 45 cases of old that had 40 grains of BP were Ballon Head cases and would hold that amount. Todays Starline will only do about 35 or so. You may load them with the 40 grains if you use a compression die. If you try to use the bullet the nose will be deformed.

 

Howdy Again

 

Actually, it was probably only the old copper Benet primed folded rim cases that were able to hold 40 grains. They had slightly more capacity than the Balloon Head cases. Most of my reading indicates that about 37-38 grains of powder would fit into a Balloon Head case.

 

Of course, as I have said many times, not all powders weigh the same, so it may have been possible to cram 40 grains of powder 'A' into a Balloon Head case while only about 38 grains of powder 'B' would have fit in. With one powder I used to use, that is no longer made, I could easily fit 37 grains of powder under a 250 grain bullet with about 1/16" of compression. It would not have been a big deal to stuff in another 3 grains, without damaging the bullet. With another well known powder, only about 34 grains will fit with 1/16" of compression. So stuffing in another 6 grains would have been a considerable amount of compression.

 

I do have a bunch of virgin Remington Balloon Head 45 Colt cases downstairs, and when I get a round tuit I would like to run a little experiment to see exactly how much powder they will hold without over compression.

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Today I loaded up a dozen cartridges with 230gr bullets from the RCBS mold and enough Goex to compress the load just ever-so-slightly . I was surprised to find they had significantly more recoil and a louder report than my usual load of a 255gr Keith bullet and CENSORED grains of Unique. What gives?

You also need to remember that the .45 Colt (I'm assuming that's what you're shooting from the two bullet weights you mentioned), was the most powerful handgun cartridge until 1934 when the .357 Mangle'm came along.

 

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You have wandered into Warthog territory.

Interesting ain't it? :lol:

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It also has to do with the fact that to achieve the same velocity of a SAMMI smokeless load BP being not efficient as smokeless is accelerating more powder thereby giving the feel of more recoil. Noise has nothing to do with it in my experience. The recoil feel is different...more like a big push than a sharp snap feel with smokeless.

 

One joy with real BP is that you never need to worry about overloading :)

 

GG

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That sharp 'crack' might be the bulet breaking the sound barrier, at around 1070 fps. This load would be too hot for SASS. A compressed load BP, heavy crimp and a 7.5" barrel (you did not specify) will be in that velocity range.

 

I like the .45 cowboy specials in my OMV's. 180-200 grain bullets over a slightly sompressed load of APP FFg or FFFg is good for aorund 700 fps and lots, lots (did I say lots?) of smoke. Blowback is minimal and groups are a 3"-at-20-yards good enough for SASS factor.

 

The .45 CS will not work in any rifle unless the carrier is heavily modified.

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No way! A modern cased 45 Colt with 37gr BP (let's say fffg Goex) with a 200+ gr will be well within SASS legality. Maybe 925 fps in a 7.5 barrel...

 

GG

GG

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No way! A modern cased 45 Colt with 37gr BP (let's say fffg Goex) with a 200+ gr will be well within SASS legality. Maybe 925 fps in a 7.5 barrel...

 

GG

GG

 

Yup. Even with extry grease on it. ;)

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That sharp 'crack' might be the bulet breaking the sound barrier, at around 1070 fps. This load would be too hot for SASS. A compressed load BP, heavy crimp and a 7.5" barrel (you did not specify) will be in that velocity range.

 

Howdy

 

I have been accused in the past of loading my ammo too hot for CAS based on the sound. I chronographed my loads a bunch of years ago. A case full of Goex FFg in a 45 Colt was only pushing a 250 grain bullet around 700 fps out of a 7 1/2" barrel. No sonic boom, just a lot of powder making a lot of noise.

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Howdy

 

I have been accused in the past of loading my ammo too hot for CAS based on the sound. I chronographed my loads a bunch of years ago. A case full of Goex FFg in a 45 Colt was only pushing a 250 grain bullet around 700 fps out of a 7 1/2" barrel. No sonic boom, just a lot of powder making a lot of noise.

 

Likewise. I was using a weighed charge of GOEX 2Fg at 40 Grains, compressed, in a .45 Colt case, Starline, and a 250 grain PRS Big Lube Boolit. I made the Ground shake and the concussion would cause the rest of the posse to back away from where I was shooting. Never Chrono'd them, but from others at the match who had, said I was probably pushing 950fps. out of a 7.5 inch barrel.

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I just chrono'd 10 rdslast week -- AJ's .45CS cases stuffed full of APP, Starline brass Fed primers, 200 GR RNFP and the average was 626 fps out of 5 1/2" Vaqueros.

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At yesterdays shoot I had someone ask me what was my Power Factor. I said whats a PF. He is a new shooter who is waiting for all his stuff he ordered to be delivered so he can shoot, not just watch. I asked him If he wanted to shoot my stuff for a stage, he declined..said he would wait.

 

When we shoot what we shoot, I just load the case with BP and seat the bullet and get to shootin. Lots a smoke and booms B)

 

It is what it is ;)

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Big Sage - Didn't ya tell him that black powder power factor is body size X attitude X smoke density X grin factor ???

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Venturino could break 1000fps with a load of Swiss under a 250 grain bullet and a 7.5 inch barrel Colt.

 

At least according to the article I read.

 

I've broken 1000fps with cap and ball, once with my homemade powder in a Navy Knockoff .44 and many times with a Walker. But we're talking about a 140 grain roundball, not a 250 grain bullet.

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