Bart Solo Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 I have been trying to learn how to shoot a pistol. I have read a lot of literature from Brian Enos to Doc Shapiro and watched a lot of videos from Long Hunter to Evil Roy. I have also thrown a lot of bullets down range. I have discovered that the key to really tight groups is follow through. When I finish the shot and actually watch the barrel rise, I am going to hit exactly what I am aiming at. When I don't not so much. Mostly I get lazy and lower my barrel at the last second leading to low shots. All of that is great, except I am an action shooter. I am supposed to shoot fast and move on to the next target. Enos, and Doc both talk a lot about the importance of follow through. Evil Roy says you don't have time. When I read Doc on shooting fast and accurately, it seems follow through goes out the window. Put the front sight on the target, take the shot without pause, immediately move your eyes to the next target, and the gun will follow. In fact that last sentence comes from Enos, Shapiro and Evil Roy. Everybody I have mentioned is an outstanding shot. I bet they have their fundamentals down cold. I think they are all doing just about the same thing. I can't figure out if they are actually following through but doing it so fast it doesn't consciously register or if they really are changing focus at the instant they acquire the front sight on target and squeeze the trigger. Is follow through really possible if you want to shoot fast? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Texas Jack Black Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 I have been trying to learn how to shoot a pistol. I have read a lot of literature from Brian Enos to Doc Shapiro and watched a lot of videos from Long Hunter to Evil Roy. I have also thrown a lot of bullets down range. I have discovered that the key to really tight groups is follow through. When I finish the shot and actually watch the barrel rise, I am going to hit exactly what I am aiming at. When I don't not so much. Mostly I get lazy and lower my barrel at the last second leading to low shots. All of that is great, except I am an action shooter. I am supposed to shoot fast and move on to the next target. Enos, and Doc both talk a lot about the importance of follow through. Evil Roy says you don't have time. When I read Doc on shooting fast and accurately, it seems follow through goes out the window. Put the front sight on the target, take the shot without pause, immediately move your eyes to the next target, and the gun will follow. In fact that last sentence comes from Enos, Shapiro and Evil Roy. Everybody I have mentioned is an outstanding shot. I bet they have their fundamentals down cold. I think they are all doing just about the same thing. I can't figure out if they are actually following through but doing it so fast it doesn't consciously register or if they really are changing focus at the instant they acquire the front sight on target and squeeze the trigger. Is follow through really possible if you want to shoot fast? Follow through is great for Trap or Skeet. Take the shot then forget about it. move your eyes and the gun will follow .Practice,practice Read Brian's book over and over he is the master. T J B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 The idea in AREA shooting is sure, ya wanna make sure ya don't move before the bullet clears the muzzle, but unlike Bullseye, ya wanna deveop a "front sight plastered on steel/bang/move on" cycle. Follow through for US means that infinitley small interval between "front sight" and "bang" not get disrupted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 I have been trying to learn how to shoot a pistol. I have read a lot of literature from Brian Enos to Doc Shapiro and watched a lot of videos from Long Hunter to Evil Roy. I have also thrown a lot of bullets down range. I have discovered that the key to really tight groups is follow through. When I finish the shot and actually watch the barrel rise, I am going to hit exactly what I am aiming at. When I don't not so much. Mostly I get lazy and lower my barrel at the last second leading to low shots. All of that is great, except I am an action shooter. I am supposed to shoot fast and move on to the next target. Enos, and Doc both talk a lot about the importance of follow through. Evil Roy says you don't have time. When I read Doc on shooting fast and accurately, it seems follow through goes out the window. Put the front sight on the target, take the shot without pause, immediately move your eyes to the next target, and the gun will follow. In fact that last sentence comes from Enos, Shapiro and Evil Roy. Everybody I have mentioned is an outstanding shot. I bet they have their fundamentals down cold. I think they are all doing just about the same thing. I can't figure out if they are actually following through but doing it so fast it doesn't consciously register or if they really are changing focus at the instant they acquire the front sight on target and squeeze the trigger. Is follow through really possible if you want to shoot fast? yes it just happens really quickly Seems to me that there are two factors in play here - first how long of a follow through is necessary and second when do your eyes move to the next target. for me personally, once the trigger has been pulled the bullet is probably gone from the barrel before I could check where it is going - therefore I can no longer influence its trajectory so "follow through" in the sense of watching to see where it hit is unnecessary and a waste of time. further once the gun has gone off I need to get my eyes onto the next target (for me more or less at the same time) so I "flick" my point of vision towards the next target. On a good day it feels like my eyes are lined up and waiting for the gun to move and the sights to come into view, as they do I squeeze the trigger and repeat for the next target. Someone once said "if you want to shoot fast then shoot fast, your eyes will catch up" or something like that. I interpret that as practice speed, the accuracy will come. Regards Gateway Kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Is follow through really possible if you want to shoot fast? No, follow thorough is behind the shot. You need to COMPLETE the shot, but once the gun has fired and bullet has left the muzzle, you're done with it. If you're examining barrel lift, watching the sights or waiting on feedback from the target... You are wasting time; time better spent acquiring the next target. This game is won and lost on transistions. From gun to gun, from position to position AND from target to target. CAS is a very simple game. Hit all the targets in a prescribed order, with the prescribed gun, as quickly as possible. If what you're doing is contrary to the above direction... Then you're doing something wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCatcher Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 I have been trying to learn how to shoot a pistol. I have read a lot of literature from Brian Enos to Doc Shapiro and watched a lot of videos from Long Hunter to Evil Roy. I have also thrown a lot of bullets down range. I have discovered that the key to really tight groups is follow through. When I finish the shot and actually watch the barrel rise, I am going to hit exactly what I am aiming at. When I don't not so much. Mostly I get lazy and lower my barrel at the last second leading to low shots. All of that is great, except I am an action shooter. I am supposed to shoot fast and move on to the next target. Enos, and Doc both talk a lot about the importance of follow through. Evil Roy says you don't have time. When I read Doc on shooting fast and accurately, it seems follow through goes out the window. Put the front sight on the target, take the shot without pause, immediately move your eyes to the next target, and the gun will follow. In fact that last sentence comes from Enos, Shapiro and Evil Roy. Everybody I have mentioned is an outstanding shot. I bet they have their fundamentals down cold. I think they are all doing just about the same thing. I can't figure out if they are actually following through but doing it so fast it doesn't consciously register or if they really are changing focus at the instant they acquire the front sight on target and squeeze the trigger. Is follow through really possible if you want to shoot fast? Well, you just have to ask the question in the right way and the answer gets pretty obvious . . . Do you want to be an accurate shooter who is trying to get fast, or do you want to be a fast shooter who is trying to be accurate? Which part means more to you as a shooter - accuracy or speed. We can modify that by saying fast enough, or accurate enough, but in this trade-space the choice offered was speed versus accuracy - where do you want to bias? I think one can take an accurate shooter and help them go faster much more effectively than one can take a fast shooter and have them get accurate. This is the same approach as we use in typing - accuracy plus repetition leads to speed with performance. Now - there are folks who will tell you that the targets are big & you can go fast, and they're right about that, but the question is: when you miss is it because you went too fast, or weren't accurate to begin with ? Wish there was an absolute capital T true answer - but each of us has our own abilities and goals, so we need to work with that in mind. Shadow catcher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Pony Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Bart not sure if this goes to your question, well directly, or not but if you shoot and watch other shooters long enough you will see misses because of a lack of follow through. You can really see this on the last shot of a string usually with rifle or pistol when the shooter "puts the gun away" before they make the shot. They are already making the transition to another gun/shooting position and that lack of follow through jumps up and bites them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Creeker has sorta got it right, or has it completely right but didn't complete the explanation (I'm going with the latter). Yes, you still follow through. Once you see the barrel start to move, the bullet has gone and it's time to move on to the next target. Note that you can follow through on a shot in a hundredth of a second (or maybe 2). It can go very quickly. But as Creeker said, you have to complete each shot. If you don't follow through, you actually run the risk of moving the gun off target before the gun goes bang. The lock time on cowboy guns is pretty dang slow (as they go). Heavier mainsprings will help with that. Here's a video clip of Glock shooter Dave Sevigny at an IPSC match. If you watch closely, he follows through on every shot, yet shoots the run incredibly quick. http://www.youtube.c...feature=related I can turn up more video's if you need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Wow...I never realized shooting fast was so complicated...I think I'll just stay ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Wow...I never realized shooting fast was so complicated...I think I'll just stay ignorant. Some are lucky and don't need to analyze. Others of us, well.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Some are lucky and don't need to analyze. Others of us, well.... I understand Doc...I've read BE's book. But a lot of these things are figured out in practice...practical excersizes and a bit of simple analysis. When folks start wondering if it's better to inhale or exhale while breaking the shot...well...that's a bit over the top. Cheers...and hope all is going well for ya!!! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I understand Doc...I've read BE's book. But a lot of these things are figured out in practice...practical excersizes and a bit of simple analysis. When folks start wondering if it's better to inhale or exhale while breaking the shot...well...that's a bit over the top. Cheers...and hope all is going well for ya!!! Phantom We're doin' ok. Kids have been off school for summer and it's been a busy, noisy summer. Thank goodness they go back on the 15th! I've got a passel of projects that need attending to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Solo Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 Funny you all should mention practice. I just got back from live fire practice. One of the problems many of us have is not being able to shoot as much as we want or need. I can only shoot fast at Powder Creek and they only have live fire practice twice a month. The rest of my practice is at the local range and they don't want more than one shot down range every three seconds. I can practice transitiions at home, and I do a lot of dry fire, but when trying to go fast nothing beats the immediate feed back of ringing steel. It would be nice to have a place to practice every day, but I am still waiting for my liquidity event. I envy all you guys who can practice all you want. In the meantime, I am trying hard to make the most of every practice I get. That means analyzing the entire process. And yes if you aren't a natural pistol shooting is a complicated process. Oh tonight I worked on drawing, shooting and picking up a second target as fast as possible. Yep, the gun will follow your eyes. Yep, you can move to the next target too fast. My current problem, however, is the first shot with my weak side gun. It is hard for me to take the first shot with my left side gun really fast. It is a matter of making sure my grip is right and my sights are on target. It will be a couple of weeks before I can really work on that problem with live ammunition. Between now and there I have three matches. That will help. Getting the most out of limited practice is why I ask all these questions. I really want to know so every shot at practice will be worth while. Sorry if I offend or go over the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 <snip> That means analyzing the entire process. And yes if you aren't a natural pistol shooting is a complicated process. Nah, it's very simple . Line up sights, keep them there as you squeeze trigger. Make sure they stay there until bullet leaves barrel. That's pretty straightforward. It's only as complicated as you make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I understand Doc...I've read BE's book. But a lot of these things are figured out in practice...practical excersizes and a bit of simple analysis. When folks start wondering if it's better to inhale or exhale while breaking the shot...well...that's a bit over the top. Cheers...and hope all is going well for ya!!! Phantom Inhaling or exhaling? As I once told somebody, it aint about the big targets and easy sequences. I like fast stages because 23 seconds is about the longest I can hold my breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I have the distinct advantage of being a mid pack shooter, I've never read any of the books other than some of Doc's online stuff a year or two back. But when I read your original post, the following thoughts came to mind...take them with a grain of salt... 1) We are not shooting groups, we shoot steel targets where an edger counts the same as dead center. 2) Grip and Stance. Gotta be consistent. This is where my intuition tells me your low shots are coming from. 3) Trigger. Gotta be consistent along with #2 4) Practice. Like I said, take it with a grain of salt, I am very far from being a 'good' shooter, much less and expert. Honestly when I am on the clock I don't really think. Stuff just happens. If I can force myself to make sure the little things are right, grip, stance, etc, better things happen, but mostly it just goes. I hope that helps somehow, if not, well ya didn't pay nuthin for it. Grizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Solo Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 Nah, it's very simple . Line up sights, keep them there as you squeeze trigger. Make sure they stay there until bullet leaves barrel. That's pretty straightforward. It's only as complicated as you make it. No doubt you are right. It is only complicated if you let it be. I guess am just one of those guys who likes to think about things. I always want to know why and how. It has been a curse since I was a little kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Everybody I have mentioned is an outstanding shot. I bet they have their fundamentals down cold. I am not going to offer any advice, because it might just add to the confusion. However, I think you have hit on the most important part to build upon with the second of those two sentences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Last Saturday at our local match our best female gamer was leaving a sg kd standing too often. Usually the second of a pair before moving or the last sg kd before a gun transition. Our Handlebar Doc sg kd's are still in fairly good shape but you have to smack them full on or they will laugh at you. A golden bb or two or a few will not do the job. I began to observe her more closely and was able to advise her what the problem was. Just as she broke the second or last sg round she was already somewhere else. Both in her mind and her body was already on the move to the next portion of the stage. So she was not allowing the shot column to clear the barrel before her mind and body had pulled the sg muzzle into golden bb territory. After thinking about it briefly she agreed with my diagnosis. Follow thru is critical anytime you want a projectile to impact where it should. The least you can get away with is best. But that hundredth of a second "pause" beats the dog out of a 5 second miss or the time it takes to stop, back up, and reload the shotgun to smack down the kd still standing laughing at you that you should have hammered down the first time. As ER opines "you can't miss fast enuff to win...". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 As ER opines "you can't miss fast enuff to win...". I remember Bud missing a shot at EOT...both ER and HT where shooting with him...boy, the look on their faces when they both realized that he beat them both on that stage even though they shot the stage clean. Hmmmmm...now what was it that you were saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 ok, ok those of us who are merely human cannot miss fast enuff to win... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I was a middle-of-the-pack IPSC shooter for six years obtaining a B-class in single-stack (1911), production and revolver divisions. For four years I have been shooting middle-of-the-pack in aged-based and duelist categories averaging one miss per stage but decent times. I now shoot in FC and FC duelist with lots of smoke. The choice here is to shoot slow and accurate while managing the smoke or just go fast and deal with the misses. I chose fast and misses proving that you can miss fast enough to win. Some people see the smoke as a challenge, but I have found a category where the smoke is an equalizer. I will never be fast like 'fill-in-the-blank' but I hope to get more accurate while enjoying this smokey challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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