crooked jake,4371 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I think he means that NASCAR drivers should have to wear chaps/ spurs and shoot SAA's? Ok.... but it's a funny image and I think driving a car that only turns left and has detergent labels all over it isn't real racing anyway. SASS needs an "OPEN" division that has real money purses and real referees (4 line RO's; 3 spotters and 1 TO). Then we'll be a 'real' sport with purses, prizes and fist fights in the parking lot. Now THAT .........makes sense!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I can see Creeker's point.I've never seen anyone get a SOG penalty,but there are a couple of times I've thought a shooter should have gotten one.Neither had anything to do with the actual shooting of the stage.I was at a match where the stages were written with a line TO BE SAID to start the timer.The line was printed out and taped to the prop the shooter was standing behind.There was a couple shooting it that refused to say the line on EVERY stage that had one.The TO would ask if the shooter is ready;if so say your line and we'll get going.Both responded with "shooter is ready"...that wasn't the line....TO again repeated what he originally said....again both responded with "shooter is ready".The TO finally gave up and started the timer.That was in my opinion ignoring stage instructions and deserved a SOG for the way they acted.The other was another shooter that refused to carry or move a prop as written in the stage instructions,because he also came to shoot and not do "stupid" stuff.None of these shooters acted in the to quote.."The Cowboy Way". Charlie, Good Gravy man, I am one of those shooters (guilty by your post) that regularly says "ready" when ready for the buzzer. My intent is not to be a Hard A$$ or be difficult, but rather, my heaad is really into the game after leaving the LT and I've plum forgot what the starting line is. Yes there are matches where the starting line is printed and posted, and tell ya the truth, I will say it, but again, there are times when it could be printed on the inside of my shooting glasses and my mind is still on the shooting order and programming my subconscious mind. I couldn't image that act would upset some to the point of giving a SOG. But, oh well!! As a TO, I will accept about anything from the shooter to indicate they are ready. Nod of head, 'ready', they say the line, they make up their own line, whatever. At time I softly ask if they are ready after they have seemed to be settled in and appear to be in the 'zone'. They own the stage and when they are ready and have indicated so, then I give them the count down and beep. Another point is, I can read the stage to the posse, and then turn around and forget what the line is for the first hand full of shooters. I got other things to ck and do to get the stage reset, ready and understand the shooting order so I can properly coach the shooter. Memorizing the line is about the last priority on my list. Just a view from my saddle. I have seen TO basically insist all shooters say the line.... Well, OK, if he wants to remind all 20 memeber while on the line to say 'whatever the line is" and then let the shooter get back into their zone, then say the line, then beep. That will work too. Wow!!!! The starting line, IMHO, is just a means for the TO and shooter to flange up and get the stage started when all is ready. Not saying you are wrong, you are welcome to your opinion. Blastmaster Creeker: I disagree with you on eliminating subjective penalties,,,, or at least your SOG example. What other subjective calls do you have in mind that upset you so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I'm sure there are justifiable reasons that a shooter can earn a SOG. But I also believe that using a 'dump' target example isn't one of them. I agree with Buck in that I don't believe ANYONE can dump fast enough to overcome and makeup time on a 'P', which has already been earned. Well, thats just my thoughts. ..........Widder Pretty much how I see it too, about dump targets. Most shooters want to do the right thing, but have a brain fart in the middle. They will try to continue on with the shooting order as written because that is how they programed themselves for that stage. Some are still shooting the sequence from the previous stage and that they are really screwed up and have no intent of gaining an advantage after earning the 'P'. Some are so lost, that the posse says, just shoot target x,y,z to get them off the hook and the stage over. Like Wider and Buck,,,, You can not shoot your way out of a procedural... The few that I have witnessed try to dump on one target after realizing they earned a P, end up spraying an praying and end up with a couple more misses. That was entertaining to the posse watching the flustered shooter safely reallllly train wreck. Blastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 If SASS gets too too serious - it will not be as much fun ! It is all ready somewhat too serious - when is the last time we had a shooter wear a bonnet, an apron and have to get on a broom stick horse to "ride" to the next shooting position ? How much action do we want in Cowboy ACTION Shooting ? If the shooter can shoot a "stand and deliver " stage in, say, 25 seconds - how much action (movement, etc) should be added to the stage - 5 seconds, 10 seconds ? Or should every stage be "stand and deliver " ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 If SASS gets too too serious - it will not be as much fun ! It is all ready somewhat too serious - when is the last time we had a shooter wear a bonnet, an apron and have to get on a broom stick horse to "ride" to the next shooting position ? A long time ago with wearing aprons, bonnets and 'stuff'. Thank goodness it was a long time ago and I personally, hope it doesn't return. IMHO, YMMV. Last time as I remember, the first two shooters wearing the dress, apron, bonnet, fake butt shorts, stuff, was kinda amusing, then after the laugh, it was no longer funny watching the rest of the posse (15-20 shooters)do the same routing over and over and over again. Rather, it was a pain doing and watching the shuttling the garmet from ULT to LT for each shooter, getting the next shooter dressed up and sent off. Again, only a view from my saddle. I agree with you about it is getting a bit more serious, especially at state and above matches. When people spend in excess of $1k per event, it tends to get that way, or at least for a measurable % of shooters. Blastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Whiskers Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Good Gravy man, I am one of those shooters (guilty by your post) that regularly says "ready" when ready for the buzzer. My intent is not to be a Hard A$$ or be difficult, but rather, my heaad is really into the game after leaving the LT and I've plum forgot what the starting line is. Yes there are matches where the starting line is printed and posted, and tell ya the truth, I will say it, but again, there are times when it could be printed on the inside of my shooting glasses and my mind is still on the shooting order and programming my subconscious mind. I couldn't image that act would upset some to the point of giving a SOG. But, oh well!! I can understand how someone will get their head into the game and I try to do that too.Especially if it's a somewhat complicated sequence.But there's nothing stopping a shooter from looking at the line that, according to stage instructions has to be said,then pausing for a moment to get back into the game before saying the line.Even if he/she has to adlib something that shooter tried to rather than refused to follow instructions.It's the refuse part that gravels my posterior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 If ye are wound up too tight to say the correct and required starting line, then ye are wound up too tight. Everyone must say the same line and no one should be given a pass on it. Not asking too much, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I haven't made up my mind on this one yet so don't take this question as being argumentative. You've used football as an analogy, I'll stick with that. If football is such a serious sport and thus doesn't have subjective penalties, what do you call unsportsmanlike conduct? " Unsportsmanlike Conduct" is "Spirit of the Game" in other words !!!! And is used in Basketball as well ... Volleyball as well ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Etc... As to changes ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, We don't need No stinkin Changes ... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taquila Tab, Sass #25048 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 If ye are wound up too tight to say the correct and required starting line, then ye are wound up too tight. Everyone must say the same line and no one should be given a pass on it. Not asking too much, IMHO. I completely disagree with you. Half the fun of match for my buddies and I is to see which one of us can out "ad lib" a line for a stage. We have no qualms about saying a line, just not necessarily the line as written though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangler Jones, SASS # 64178 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 In the original scenario, Shooter A & Shooter B both dump on the closer target. Shooter A has a brain fade, Shooter B is an @$$#077. The SOG penalty is a nuclear option to deal with the @$$#077. I have a video clip of a local lady who earned a P, then dumped her rifle. She's well respected, and nobody would DREAM of giving her a SOG. She's not an @$$#077. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conejo Kid #51342 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Nope, as they say, "if it ain't broke -- don't fix it". ------------------------------------------------------ Also, as the sign says when you walk into the Cajon Cowboys --- "No Whinnin" That about sums it up. Conejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I completely disagree with you. Half the fun of match for my buddies and I is to see which one of us can out "ad lib" a line for a stage. We have no qualms about saying a line, just not necessarily the line as written though. Actually I quite agree with you there on that. I ad-lib all the time or even break into a song. What I was NOT in agreement with is a seriously serious shooter who refuses to say anything but "shooter ready" three times. That is too wound up. Nope, as they say, "if it ain't broke -- don't fix it". ------------------------------------------------------ Also, as the sign says when you walk into the Cajon Cowboys --- "No Whinnin" That about sums it up. Conejo I hope it said NO Whinin' cuz I don't know what whinnin' is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I ain't readin' 3 pages of comments. I only have one question. What penalty would you suggest for "unsportsmanlike conduct"? We just happen to call it a SOG. I believe we would be diminished, NOT enhanced by eliminating this rule. If you don't mean to do away with all rules that allow for making a call of unsportsmanlike conduct, please explain. Every time I read you state this, that's what I hear. I can't think of a sport that doesn't have a rule agains unsportsmanlike conduct. Even Rugby, (IMO one of thruly roughest sports in the world where weapons aren't used and the object isn't necessarily to inflict bodily harm on your opponent) has such a rule. And penalties appropriate to the level. Are calls subjective? Yep. Obviously the home team would dispute all such calls if some weren't so blantant. Boxing has rules and penalties for hitting below the belt. Are they called consistently? Nope, no a chance, but the rule exists. Why? Why would we want to do away with it? HUMANs are fallible. And our ROs, Rules Committee Members, TGs, he77, even the WB are human. Subject to error. The SOG penalty is the final stop-gap in a long line of rules that deal with cheating. Doing away with that rule sends exactly the WRONG message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I've only given a SOG penalty one time. It was to a shooter who made a mistake, and then announced that he could only get one "P", so dumped the rounds out of the next gun into a single target, rather than the prescribed scheme. I do understand what Creeker is saying and to some degree I agree, but, only to a degree. It would be very difficult to take all subjectivity out of the game. Doc mentioned Spotting... yes, it is certainly subjective, but it would take too much time to paint the targets after every shooter, and would still not be fool proof. The one thing that helps in the spotting situation is that it is done by three people,which in my mine does help. Maybe a SOG penalty could be expanded to require more than just the T.O. I do however support the "Strong T.O." conceipt. If a shooter feels that the call against them is not fair, and thinks that they have some supporting information, then they should absolutly appeal the call. SOG is indeed subjective, it is rarely used, but it does have some weight in keeping some shooters from simply disregarding the intent of the scenario and the game. Attitude is everything, and the shooter with the poor, anti-establishment... I'm going to do anything that I want attitude could easily run into a T.O. who could and would apply the SOG penalty. Poor judging is something that I hope we can keep to a minimum with good training and good selection of Posse leaders and those who run the timer. Also... as PaleWolf stated, it is NOT the ROC that could change that... it is the TGs or the WB. After all..... "We're from the Government, and we're here to help" ! Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 real good point Doc that helps to make my point too where do you start and stop when you start getting rid of subjective rules our country seems to be split bout 49 / 51 split wavering back and fourth on each issues 51 / 49 I still say that SOG subjective to some - or - not, ...I... am just one tiny voice that says SOG,needs to stay with the:: SASS / CAS / WB progam mileage always varies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Texas Jack Black Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 First off SASS is not a sport it is a game so SOG should apply. Yet the rules are so loosely enforced and the ROS so ill informed .SASS should really be classified as an activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 First off SASS is not a sport it is a game so SOG should apply. Yet the rules are so loosely enforced and the ROS so ill informed .SASS should really be classified as an activity. my thoughts sass seems 2 be on its way too becoming a sport that might be what is the basis of my letter to the CC here is the catch, that you mentioned since it is a game, and done entirely with volenteers, the rules may be enforced loosly since it is a game, done with all vollenteers, the ROS may vary so, perhaps, ya might be on to something lets grow to where we have the $$$, to have officially, paid officials??????????????? that may mean a small increass in ALL fees or you all can put in yer dollar-three-nighty-eights worth after all this is the wire since it is a game,,,, in my simple mind I agree, Spirit of the Game should apply and I being of madd mindd and wore out body, do here by promote SOG for SASS-CAS-WB stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 When you look at definitions, SASS is more a sport than a game. Always has been IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riptide Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 OK, I am slow as dirt but have shot with people that shoot a hard stage in say 20 seconds and a easy one 15. Not sure how you could take the 10 second procedural on every stage and somehow win. Even if you could I don't think you would have much fun at a match as the rest of us would just tell you to leave and never come back. Some things you just don't need rules for, common sense still has to apply. Life is too short to get all rapped up in rules! Riptide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 When you look at definitions, SASS is more a sport than a game. Always has been IMHO. when I talked with many of the founders face to face I must tend to agree to disagree with ya it may be heading into a sport then we need to add $$$$$$ to our shooting fees and pay all the counters, ro's and such i think most sports doo that?????? yikes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Texas Jack Black Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 When you look at definitions, SASS is more a sport than a game. Always has been IMHO. Sorry ,Not much physical activity and rules are loosely enforced so more like a get together or sand lot game of baseball or football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockridge,SASS #8763 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Creeker, I agree with the part about getting rid of the SOG penalty. But on the subject of 'collective P's, I would hope that our minds lend more towards fewer penalties in matters such as this. Actually, the slower shooter would be the one who probably gained an advantage. The faster 'gamey' shooter probably hurt his/her time even by earning just one P.....in this type of circumstance. Anyhow, I always enjoy your post. They stir spirited conversations. ..........Widder +1 I fully agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 "There are only 3 sports, mountain climbing, auto racing, and bull-fighting. All the rest are games." -- E. Hemingway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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