Gunfighter ?

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

If a stage requires pistols to be shot separately even though back-to-back, specifically stating a gunfighter must double duelist the stage, and a gunfighter decides to shoot gunfighter and take the "P" would that warrant a SOTG?

 

This is hypothetical only.

 

Thank you.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Yes.

 

Coffinmaker

 

PS: As a Gunfighter, I hate when it's done. MDs actually NEVER require any other category shooter to mandatorily shoot out of category.

[Jack Houston # 35508]

Who would write a stage like that???

[DOCBRAZOS, SASS#18033L]

hypotheticaly shouldn't be a problem as all gungfighters would just pack their gear and go home.

Kind of like wrighting a stage that all two handed shooters have to shoot he whole stage duelist or everyone has to shoot week side long gun.

singling out a group and requiring "out of catagory actions" just ain't the kind of thing shooers will put up with unless everyone does it for fun!

[Painted Filly]

I would SOG the Match Director that wrote the stage!

 

Painted Filly

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Yes - because the gunfighter intentionally disobeyed the scenario. Hopefully if was not intentional and he pulled both pistols someone would yell out ' one pistol at a time pard'

 

 

GG ~

[Mustang Gregg]

 

Been doing the GF category since '03. I run into the split revolver stuff about every other match in these parts.

And I always ask the TO if I can shoot 3 outta one and 2 outta the other and re-holster. Most ponder on it awhile and say, "Guess so---".

And then some guys from the crowd say, "Hey, he can't do that!".

 

I have even gone to a CAS range (non-SASS) that says that two revolvers CANNOT be outta the holsters at the SAME time. And it's a MDQ, if'n you do!

 

Just sayin',

Mustang

(GF)

[Wyatt]

Something similar to that happened to me once.........just once

 

Wyatt

[The Shoer 27979]

If a stage requires pistols to be shot separately even though back-to-back, specifically stating a gunfighter must double duelist the stage, and a gunfighter decides to shoot gunfighter and take the "P" would that warrant a SOTG?

 

This is hypothetical only.

 

Thank you.

 

being the A$$hole I am I would say F*** you give me my money back then pack my stuff and leave life is way to short to deal with the DA that wrote that

[Guest Texas Bounty Hunter]

Language like that must make you reeeeal popular.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

If a stage requires pistols to be shot separately even though back-to-back, specifically stating a gunfighter must double duelist the stage, and a gunfighter decides to shoot gunfighter and take the "P" would that warrant a SOTG?

 

This is hypothetical only.

 

Thank you.

Hypothetically I don't see how anyone could write a stage like that with a straight face I think I would just ask for my money back and go have some lunch But no, there is no way a SOTG applies to such foolishness, unless applied to the MD

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Chickahominy Charlie]

If a stage requires pistols to be shot separately even though back-to-back, specifically stating a gunfighter must double duelist the stage, and a gunfighter decides to shoot gunfighter and take the "P" would that warrant a SOTG?

 

This is hypothetical only.

 

Thank you.

 

You stage-writin' for Saturday?

 

Chick

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

You stage-writin' for Saturday?

 

Chick

 

You bet. But don't expect the above mentioned sequence.

[Guest Dusty Feller, SASS #20010L]

It is inconcievable to me that a stage writer would be that clueless as to write a stage that way.

 

The above would be true for any stage writer that decided to mandate that all the shooters shoot out of category; unless this was a fun match that did not score that stage. Then, OK!

[Chickahominy Charlie]

You bet. But don't expect the above mentioned sequence.

 

 

"Duelists must engage pistol targets with left hand only" (can't you see me with my right-hand-draw shoulder rig and right strong?)

 

 

turnabout is fair play.....

 

Chick

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Who would write a stage like that???

 

 

I can tell you who!

 

TN State match in Memphis about 2 years back....2009 I believe.

 

One long gun and pistol were to be shot at one end of a wagon and the other long gun and other pistol were to be shot at the other end of the wagon (this required about a 20' movement from one end of the wagon to the other.

Anyhow, If I remember correctly, Shooters choice of firearm order EXCEPT, rifle not last AND.....if you shot pistols in a back to back order, they must be fired DD style. Also if my memory serves me correctly, that State Match had about 5 or 6 split pistol stages that really hindered GFer's from having a good match.

GET THIS: even on side match day for speed pistol, there was a sign that read that GFer's had to shoot the speed pistol event Duelist style because speed pistol was for only 5 shots. GO FIGURE!

 

..........Widder

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

A couple of you have stated that the SOG attaches when the stage is shot in a way other than intended.

Yet the rule actually has two parts that cause me to wonder;

first is the competitive advantage clause,

second is the "Willfully" qualifier.

 

From page 26 of RO 1 Manual;

Willfully shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a

competitive advantage.

 

 

So the "Willfully" qualifier that assumes you can asssess "will" not just performance.

Obviously if one says he did it intentionally that nullifies the will part.

But what of the competitive advantage clause.

Is it clear that the the Gunfighter mode is really that much faster that it negates the 10 seconds from the basic P?

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

I can tell you who!

 

TN State match in Memphis about 2 years back....2009 I believe.

 

One long gun and pistol were to be shot at one end of a wagon and the other long gun and other pistol were to be shot at the other end of the wagon (this required about a 20' movement from one end of the wagon to the other.

Anyhow, If I remember correctly, Shooters choice of firearm order EXCEPT, rifle not last AND.....if you shot pistols in a back to back order, they must be fired DD style. Also if my memory serves me correctly, that State Match had about 5 or 6 split pistol stages that really hindered GFer's from having a good match.

GET THIS: even on side match day for speed pistol, there was a sign that read that GFer's had to shoot the speed pistol event Duelist style because speed pistol was for only 5 shots. GO FIGURE!

 

..........Widder

 

They knew you were coming. Really, that sucks!

[Korupt Karl]

I am always pleased to see a GF place high at a shoot. It must intimidate the hell out of the non GF shooters. Why else would they try to hamper us. Are they so afraid of us. I still don't understand the reason for mandatory split pistols unless there is jealousy involved.

 

People shoot GF because they want too. Even when there are split pistols....if there is a staging place available, most GF's will stage their pistols full well knowing that it will usually take more time..WHY? Because they want to shoot GF.

 

To state in a scenario that a GF must shoot DD is harassment and usually intentional to handcuff them or to slow down a specific person. I am still somewhat new to stage writing, but if I have total control, the stages will be GF friendly and when they are GUNFIGHTER FRIENDLY, THEY ARE TWO HANDED FRIENDLY.

 

Off hand I can only think of the "alternating" targets as being the primary "gunfighter friendly" stage that people object about.

 

I have been involved with state level matches and have seen where there is an attitude that you have to have at least two or three split pistol stages. I'm not against split pistols....I'm just against scenarios that intentionally discriminate.....against any shooting style.

 

We used to see a lot of odd numbered shotgun targets, but as it became popular to shoot the side by side you rarely see anything but even numbers of targets. So, if stage writers could adjust to the change in shotguns it would appear that they could adjust to writing stages that are friendly to all styles.

 

Just my two scents.

 

KK

 

[Dubious Don #56333]

Who would write a stage like that???

 

There are STILL stage writers out there who do. Your guess is as good as mine as to WHY. It is especially curious when there IS a place to stage the revolvers and they still insist on "us" shooting DD.

 

If a stage requires pistols to be shot separately even though back-to-back, specifically stating a gunfighter must double duelist the stage, and a gunfighter decides to shoot gunfighter and take the "P" would that warrant a SOTG?

 

This is hypothetical only.

 

Thank you.

 

Yes because the shooter intentionally shot the stage to gain an advantage.

[Dubious Don #56333]

I can tell you who!

 

TN State match in Memphis about 2 years back....2009 I believe.

 

One long gun and pistol were to be shot at one end of a wagon and the other long gun and other pistol were to be shot at the other end of the wagon (this required about a 20' movement from one end of the wagon to the other.

Anyhow, If I remember correctly, Shooters choice of firearm order EXCEPT, rifle not last AND.....if you shot pistols in a back to back order, they must be fired DD style. Also if my memory serves me correctly, that State Match had about 5 or 6 split pistol stages that really hindered GFer's from having a good match.

GET THIS: even on side match day for speed pistol, there was a sign that read that GFer's had to shoot the speed pistol event Duelist style because speed pistol was for only 5 shots. GO FIGURE!

 

..........Widder

 

It's just such silliness as this that makes one wonder just WHY stage writers do such things! One or maybe two split stages well, ok. Make me shoot those one or two double duelist when there's no good reason to well..... If it's truly a split stage with a gun in between the revolvers and no place to stage the revolvers (I used to ask myself why but...) Ok. Doing this repeatedly as above Widder? Don't think I'd be going back as long as the same people were running the match.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

I would SOG the Match Director that wrote the stage!

 

Painted Filly

 

+1

[Pit Bull Tex]

I am so new at this but if pards do write stages like that I think they write them because they cant shoot gun fighter and want to just screw with the GFs

[Old Scatterbrain]

A couple of you have made reference to having a place to stage guns on a split stage: why is this necessary?

[Widder, SASS #59054]

A couple of you have made reference to having a place to stage guns on a split stage: why is this necessary?

 

Scatterbrain:

 

Basically, its an option for GFer's to consider.

 

Example: Starting on table A, engage the 3 pistol targets in a Nevada sweep with your first 5 shots.

Then with rifle (staged on table A), double tap the 3 rifle targets in a Nevada sweep.

 

MOVE to table B, and with pistols dump 5 rounds on a dump plate. Then with SG (also staged on table knockdown the 4 KD's in any order.

 

 

This type of scenerio would allow the GFer to shoot his/her pistols GF style and also give them the option to shoot it duelist style BECAUSE.......the GF can not reholster those pistols shooting GF style at table A but he/she can restage them on the table, pick them up after shooting the rifle and move to table B to complete the pistol sequence required.

 

Hope this helps. Also, this is just one small example that I could give.

 

 

..........Widder

[Blackwater 53393]

I can tell you who!

 

TN State match in Memphis about 2 years back....2009 I believe.

 

One long gun and pistol were to be shot at one end of a wagon and the other long gun and other pistol were to be shot at the other end of the wagon (this required about a 20' movement from one end of the wagon to the other.

Anyhow, If I remember correctly, Shooters choice of firearm order EXCEPT, rifle not last AND.....if you shot pistols in a back to back order, they must be fired DD style. Also if my memory serves me correctly, that State Match had about 5 or 6 split pistol stages that really hindered GFer's from having a good match.

GET THIS: even on side match day for speed pistol, there was a sign that read that GFer's had to shoot the speed pistol event Duelist style because speed pistol was for only 5 shots. GO FIGURE!

 

..........Widder

That may have been the wettest match in history. On Sunday the rain had been falling so hard and for so long that water was running in over the tops of my seven inch orthopedic shoes.

 

That was before I started shooting Gunfighter.

 

I still didn't understand why some of the scenarios were written the way they were!

 

 

A couple of you have made reference to having a place to stage guns on a split stage: why is this necessary?

 

Most Gunfighters would prefer to pull both pistols and shoot then move to the next position as required and shoot the rest of the pistol string. Since gunfighters are not allowed to holster a pistol with live rounds in it, they need a place to stage the pistols.

 

While I agree that some folks want to handicap Gunfighters, most don't. A stage now and then with split pistols that has us shooting "Double Duelist" is no worse than having us lefties shoot ten right handed stages. A stage or two, sure but I've shot matches where everything was shot from left to right and ALL movement was also left to right. (Note; there are more lefties than there are Gunfighters)

 

All we lefties have ever asked was a fair number of neutral stages and maybe one or two stages where a left handed shooter has an advantage if there are righty stages in the match.

 

I've only recently begun to shoot FCGF at some matches. What a BLAST. I've even had a couple of really fast times. For me, if eight or nine stages are really Gunfighter friendly, I don't have a beef.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Spirit of the Game? You must be kidding! Unfair advandtage? Shooter takes a P, I'm a fair GF but with 10 seconds added to my time take sorta takes the unfair advantage out of the picture doesn't it?

 

Now, iffn you can give a SOG for an unfair advantage of having more fun, well then you mite have an actual arguement.

 

back in 03 or so I went to a state shoot a few miles from home, there were 5 split pistol, never went back, tho I would now because I have been assured no such foolishness happens anymore.

 

Cheyenne, GF/BW, Culpepper

[Guest Crosscut Hardy SASS # 54701]

Well here goes Possum. I believe the stage writer is frustrated because after trying

 

to shoot gunfighter he could not shoot this style so he was just being a "jack a##"

 

and trying to slow down all gunfighters on that stage. The guy actually came up

 

to me just before I shot that particular stage and reminded me that I could not shoot

 

gunfighter on that stage----- I reminded him that he had already seen me shoot the two

 

previous stages two (squaw grip) handed and I was shooting the whole match two handed.

 

p.s. since I started shooting gunfighter Mar2010 this was the first to (not shoot gunfighter)

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

...

So the "Willfully" qualifier that assumes you can assess "will" not just performance.

Obviously if one says he did it intentionally that nullifies the will part.

But what of the competitive advantage clause.

Is it clear that the the Gunfighter mode is really that much faster that it negates the 10 seconds from the basic P?

 

 

Spirit of the Game? You must be kidding! Unfair advandtage? Shooter takes a P, I'm a fair GF but with 10 seconds added to my time take sorta takes the unfair advantage out of the picture doesn't it?

 

...

 

Without adding any additional commentary about BS stage instructions aimed at a specific category...

 

It would be difficult to claim "competitive advantage" for 'willfully' taking a 10-second procedural penalty.

 

NO SOG in the "hypothetical" OP scenario.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

FWIW -

Ran into a similar situation some years ago at an annual match.

GF made the mistake of asking if he could "shoot five rounds, move safely to the next firing position (about 10 feet) with the hammers down/muzzles pointed downrange; then shoot the other five rounds".

(instead of the recommended procedure of simply informing the T/O as to the way he intended to engage the stage).

PM/TO didn't think that was safe (local club appointee...with no previous experience with Gunfighters)...told the GF he had to shoot it DD.

That was then written on the posted stage instructions for any other visiting GF's.

I was asked to speak to the MD about it when the next posse arrived on that stage (with two GF's).

Was informed that the MD agreed with the PM...and that the same instructions had been written for GF's on another stage that had a similar setup (moving the same distance from one end of a storefront to the other).

Protest was (politely) noted:

[Constable Nelson #11784]

Right.... so no argument that the hypothetical stage in question is ridiculous.

 

Having said that however it must be pointed out that some of the other comments here sorta approach the same level.

 

Ever since it's inception the rules for GF have clearly anticipated that not ALL stages would be back to back pistol.

 

Go ahead.. read'em!!

 

Double Duellist was ALWAYS going to be a part of the category.. and in fact being able to shoot that style is ONLY required of GF'ers... it is an integral and distinctive part of the category as it was originally introduced.

 

Now we get folks implying that any stage that is not pistol-pistol is somehow unfriendly to GF's?

 

Or worse, it is suggested that they are being forced to shoot "out of category"?

 

NO they are not. They are being required to demonstrate a skill that ONLY Gunfighters are required to obtain.

 

If you don't like that.. fine. Lobby your TG to push for a change to the rules... but don't just make stuff up.. OK?

[royal barnes sass #5792]

Maybe it's because I'm not as competitive as some posters but I have shot GF with BP for several years and, while not crazy about a scenario like this, I wouldn't walk or curse the RO about it. I have never considered packing up and going home over anything other than a safety issue.................. or maybe the weather. Now, if half the stages were written this way I would respectfully have a talk with the MD but I still wouldn't get huffy and leave.

[BJT]

Argghhhggghh!!!!!!!

 

So the guy who screws up a target order through brain fade, realizes there is a problem, doesn't know how to fix it and so dumps remaining rounds at a target gets a P and a SOG.

 

But the guy who INTENTIONALLY shoots it wrong in a faster manner gets only the P.

 

Just went through the looking glass.

 

Welcome to Wonderland,

 

BJT

 

 

 

Without adding any additional commentary about BS stage instructions aimed at a specific category...

 

It would be difficult to claim "competitive advantage" for 'willfully' taking a 10-second procedural penalty.

 

NO SOG in the "hypothetical" OP scenario.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Argghhhggghh!!!!!!!

 

So the guy who screws up a target order through brain fade, realizes there is a problem, doesn't know how to fix it and so dumps remaining rounds at a target gets a P and a SOG.

 

But the guy who INTENTIONALLY shoots it wrong in a faster manner gets only the P.

My comment was ONLY referring to the hypothetical OP situation...NOT, for instance, a shooter who came up & dumped all rounds on a single target on purpose rather than alternating/sweeping/&tc.

 

Just went through the looking glass.

 

Welcome to Wonderland,

 

BJT

 

Consider the difference between getting a "P", THEN trying to make up for the time penalty by taking advantage of the fact that only ONE "P" can be assessed per stage...

VS

Taking a 10-second penalty ON PURPOSE in order to protest discriminatory stage instructions.

 

Would engaging the targets GF-style + 10-seconds be a "competitive advantage" over DD-style w/no penalty?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

IMO - In re: the OP scenario, the following OPINION may have had some influence on that "NO SOG" statement...

 

The following STAGE CONVENTION:

8. Revolvers are drawn and used in accordance with the shooters category.

Is one that should NOT be "...otherwise directed in stage descriptions."

 

As with the stage instructions to "Draw first revolver; fire 5 rounds; holster...draw 2nd revolver; fire 5 rounds; holster"

being "converted" by Gunfighters to "1^st 5 rounds / 2^nd 5 rounds"

 

...a GF should be allowed to adapt as necessary to shoot within his/her chosen category without any specific stage restrictions.

 

I personally view #8 in the same light as these two:

 

9. Safe gun handling is the shooters responsibility. The 170-degree safety rule is in effect.

...

12. Interpersonal Conflicts WILL NOT be tolerated.

 

...as being EXEMPT from any allowance to 'override' them in the stage directions.

 

...but that might just be due to my PRO-GF perspective.