Wild Bunch confusion

[Delta Glen, SASS #39197 Life]

In an effort to keep it civil - "Safety issue?" Phuleeze!

 

If we keep dumbing down our rules because we think folks aren't smart enough to learn more/better safety procedures then we will always be thought of by other shooting sports as the kids in the short bus. Demand responsibility and you will get a safer shooter.

 

Trust me, everyone knows the difference between a revolver and a 1911. I have never seen anyone try to cock a 1911 between shots, or try to load shells into a fully stoked 97 shotgun. I think they can also count higher than five.

 

I agree we can count higher than five. But I wouldn't have thought changing mags in a 1911 could take me a week compared to a day for switching revolvers. I like the idea of filling the mags to capacity! Write stages for WB...

[Griff]

Condition 3.

And that's what they taught me in '66,

And in '70... along with that left hand on hip thing also... but that don't mean I have to like it! Carried condition 1 for nigh onto 40 years now... had to think carefully to NOT pull the slide and holster @ the loading table. But having a blast with the 1911, it's all good. Can't always have yer cake and eat it too! Lookin' forward to going to Founder's Ranch and shootin' and arguin' with Tex over the rules... like in the old days!

[Madd Mike #8595]

The allowed equipment sheds light on the premise that Wild Bunch was always meant to be cowboy with 1911's the entire time.

If it had been intended (from the onset) as a stand alone discipline:

Even if the rules denied cocked and locked condition for the 1911's, the magazines would, at least, be fully loaded.

Model 12 Winchesters would be an allowable shotgun.

Acceptable rifles would have been late 1800's /early 1900's bolt guns with reduced loads.

In other words, a game that is actually different than cowboy.

 

IMO, the five round mag capacity was intended to integrate WB into the cowboy ranks.

I sincerely believe that the original plan was for cowboy and Wild Bunch shooters to compete side by side, that Wild Bunch was to simply be another category within cowboy.

Thankfully this did not occur.

 

maybe, iffen you were to personally spend time with

and

talk with each and everyone on the wild bunch commitee

you would think differently

 

but then again

maybee knot

 

mileage always varies between different models, and road conditions

[Seldom Seen #16162]

So why do they limit mag capacity to 5 rounds in an official SASS Wild Bunch match?

 

Just wonderin.

 

Thanks,

T.

 

 

Because you only have five fingers on each hand silly.

[Tomboy]

Seldom,

Put yer finger on it!

-T

[royal barnes sass #5792]

Condition 3.

And that's what they taught me in '66,

Bob,

In '63 we were still carrying Condition 1 at least in the standard military flap holster. I know my DAD carried that way during WWII because of our discussions about the safety of each method. I don't believe standard military holsters, at least through the Korean War, would close on a standard GI with the spur hammer cocked. They can be stretched but they weren't designed to.

 

OOPS!!!!! MY BAD. I MEANT CONDITION 3.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

The Israeli's, arguably the deadliest army in the world (outside Seal Team 6), carry, and are taught, condition 3. Was that really the point?

 

I thought we were talking about only five in the mag. I am sure I missed the point somewhere along the way.

[Bad Hand]

The Israeli's, arguably the deadliest army in the world (outside Seal Team 6), carry, and are taught, condition 3. Was that really the point?

 

I thought we were talking about only five in the mag. I am sure I missed the point somewhere along the way.

 

 

They were taught that way because of the myriad of different pistols they carried. They could carry it condition 3 with whatever the safety off.

[Elfego, SASS #50493]

For those unhappy with the 5-shot mag for the 1911 there are other shoots available.

 

Last Saturday i attended a steel challenge.

 

If you are good only five shots are required for each run.

 

I used my Glock 35 with 14-15 rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber.

 

Draw and hit five targets in the shortest time.

 

We did this five times at each of seven stages.

 

At each stage your worst time is thrown out.

 

Before leaving your shooting station you remove the magazine, show the range officer your empty chamber,close the slide, drop the hammer and holster.

 

It was fun and i am looking forward to doing it again.

 

Pretty simple rules.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

They were taught that way because of the myriad of different pistols they carried. They could carry it condition 3 with whatever the safety off.

 

I was told they were taught that way so in the event the picked up a weapon on the ground they would automatically cycle it to see if was loaded and working.

 

I have no first hand knowledge whether this is true or not.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

For those unhappy with the 5-shot mag for the 1911 there are other shoots available.

 

Last Saturday i attended a steel challenge.

 

If you are good only five shots are required for each run.

 

I used my Glock 35 with 14-15 rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber.

 

Draw and hit five targets in the shortest time.

 

We did this five times at each of seven stages.

 

At each stage your worst time is thrown out.

 

Before leaving your shooting station you remove the magazine, show the range officer your empty chamber,close the slide, drop the hammer and holster.

 

It was fun and i am looking forward to doing it again.

 

Pretty simple rules.

 

 

Hey, I shoot USPSA as well and my Limited gun holds 20 rounds - not the point. It's not that we are "unhappy" with the five shot mag limit, it's just that we have been told (repeatedly) that WB is NOT SASS with a 1911. So, it's logical to ask why we are stuck with the five round deal when the original mag held seven. If we say nothing, nothing changes, so we are voicing our opinion. Not starting a riot.

 

Dang It

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Some rules are necessary and needed. Some not so much. Some are carved in stone. This one will change, sooner or later. I vote for sooner. 5 in a 1911 is just plain goofy.

 

Not so long ago we couldn't wear straw hats in WBAS, now we can. Because that rule too was well gooofy.

 

Another reason the Israelis go with condition 3 is because the handgun is relegated to secondary or even tertiary status. When everyone even the schoolteachers has at least a slung Galil, M16 or at the very least an Uzi, the handgun is for last ditch emergency utilization and need not be charged as a matter of routine carry.

[Madd Mike #8595]

Hey, I shoot USPSA as well and my Limited gun holds 20 rounds - not the point. It's not that we are "unhappy" with the five shot mag limit, it's just that we have been told (repeatedly) that WB is NOT SASS with a 1911. So, it's logical to ask why we are stuck with the five round deal when the original mag held seven. If we say nothing, nothing changes, so we are voicing our opinion. Not starting a riot.

 

Dang It

 

 

so if you apply logic, then wild bunch should NOT---I say--- NOT--- allow, the stoking of the 97 at the loading table

iffen

wild bunch was cas with a 1911

 

at least thats the way I see the logic of lack of logic

of the whole mess

[Dang It Dan 13202]

so if you apply logic, then wild bunch should NOT---I say--- NOT--- allow, the stoking of the 97 at the loading table

iffen

wild bunch was cas with a 1911

 

at least thats the way I see the logic of lack of logic

of the whole mess

 

Forgive me for injecting "logic" into a disscusion concerning the rules. My bad. But as they say WB IS NOT SASS with a 1911, so there you go - no logic needed.

[Madd Mike #8595]

Forgive me for injecting "logic" into a disscusion concerning the rules. My bad. But as they say WB IS NOT SASS with a 1911, so there you go - no logic needed.

 

hey, dont take it personal

I tried to apply logic, me own self

 

I really think that

SASS new that wild bunch could not stand on its own two feet right out of the box

soooooo

they usec cowboy action shooting as the training wheels

 

they made the rules match a lot of cowboy action shooting as bait

and

they made changes, so that when the training wheels are removed

it can really be, and show that it is stand alone, due to many rule differences

 

thats what my twisted crystal ball said to me in the middle of a dream

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

WB is just a game. A game made up of certain rules. At some of the very first shoots it was thought that we could have stages with different requirements. Some requireing load 5, some load 6, and some load 7. Eight was abandoned because everyone didn't have eight round mags. Then for no real reason someone said " lets just keep it at a standard amount". "Let's use five and stick with that." Other practices and rules were developed on the fly in the same way. After some time, a Wild Bunch Committee was selected and that group met and formalized all the rules. There was never any deep intention to follow John Brownings wishes, or allow all turn of the century type weapons, follow military methods, or pattern after anything for that matter. In the very beginning the desire was to have only one category. However, it quickly became apparent that was not going to be possible. But the desire has always been to limit it as much as possible to keep it pure. As a specific game, not pure for shooting enthusiasts or WW reenactors or anything else. Shooting a WB category along with a cowboy match works fine. Actually, they can even be scored together and there's no problem. I mean heck if there's no problem scoring a thumb fanning six gun shooter with a thumb cockin' cap 'n baller then "where's the beef?" Somewhere during the second year or maybe the third, the Committee decided that the game should have more difficult targets and a significant power factor. It these last two elements that have lead to the statement that "Wild Bunch is not CAS with a 1911" and one reason why SASS advises they be different matches. Other reasons are because the rules have some definite differences. The use of the .45 rifle opens up the stage writing and keeps the playing field more level.

 

Now for those of you that want to talk about being dissed or considered stupid. Nobody said you couldn't count to seven or that you would shoot yourself in the foot holstering a cocked 1911 with a 3lb trigger. From what I read, condition one carry, or "cocked and locked" refers to carrying the weapon with a round in the chamber, the hammer cocked, and the saftey engaged. This is a defensive carry tactic. That type of carry would not add anything to the game or the fun factor, but it is possible that it could create a higher probability of an AD. To badmouth this game or the people that have worked so hard to develop just to have some tallking point is needless at best and rude or confrontational at worst. At the very least you are simply being short sighted. You want a game like you descibe, then go out and start one! This game is just what it is. And, it is fun. And mag changes appear to be a necessary skill in many of the auto shooting sports. I marvel at the way I see some do it.

 

I probably shouldn't say this, but my fingers jes won't quit typin', but the only degradation due to stupidity being foisted on those of you that take exception to this game is that which you show by the words of your very own posts!

 

...nows ah feel betta....

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Max, this is the type of discussion denouncing we have been getting over on the WB wire. Shut up and toe the line. Well, thanks and all that but no thanks. Just because you are perfectly happy with 5 round mags does not mean that everyone has to enjoy it as much as you. We are free-born Americans with the inherent right to say our minds. I DO most definitely not appreciate being told I am stupid or un-appreciative of the great game we have been given. Or to go start my own discipline. Not productive, pard. I feel that open discussion of any topic is always good. Attempts to stifle that discussion are not good and always futile when dealing with Americans.

 

I do very much enjoy WBAS. Both as it is and what it may yet become if allowed to bloom to its full potential. Some of us just happen to believe that the full potential is NOT going to be realized by limiting us to 5 round mags. OK? Well even if it's not OK with you, that's how it is, whether you like it or you don't like it. Some of us just happen to have a different opinion from yours. We certainly respect your opinion and your right to express it. We wish you could do the same.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

Max, I appreciate your position, but I have a question: How much growth do you see right now in WB? How many folks shot the Wild Bunch "World Championship" from last year, to this year? And, how much of that was because it was moved back to EOT?

 

I honestly don't know the answer to those questions, but my point is that if the sport is going to stand on it's own across the county (not just on the West Coast) it needs more participation. There is no single recipe for that, but it doesn't hurt to listen to the folks who are participating, and the folks who "might" participate if the right changes were enacted.

 

I would love to shoot this as my main match catagory but I can't because there seems to be no tolerance for it amoungst the general SASS population, and there isn't enough demand to have a monthly stand-alone match anywhere in Florida, so I will have to be satisfied with shooting it only three to four times a year, at a match with only about twenty shooters. I think it's sad that this may be the extent of the sport in it's current form and would welcome any changes that would bring more folks in - that's all.

 

So, I am not belittling your efforts and would never do that to anyone who works to achieve a positive change in the shooting sports, but I won't apologize for adding my thoughts to a dicussion about something I care about.

 

Respectfully,

 

Dang It Dan

[Tomboy]

Howdy,

Here in So Cal, I know of two clubs (there may be more) that shoot WB every match as a category (5 round mags, 4 in the '97 magazine). No one particularly complains and we have no problems as far as posse performance is concerened.

 

Those who don't shoot it will occasionally say something like "it ain't cowboy." I just smile and nod. Not looking for any big controversy.

 

Just like shooting Wild Bunch.

 

-T

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

Lone Dog, I CERTAINLY never said you were stupid. My only point was .....it is what it is. Asking questions about "why"(such as the original post) and making suggestions is constructive. Even simply stating a disagreement is valid. However, the tone of so many posts seem to be negative for the sake of being negative. There's nothing constructive about that. I didn't see anywhere in my post where I said that shooting five was fun. But, let me address that. Shooting five is fun. So is shooting six, or seven, or eight. Heck, one match we shot at Deer Creek in Indiana we tossed in an M-1 thompson with a 20 rnd mag. The same concept applies to baseball. I remember once at a family picnic we allowed four strikes before a person was called out. That doesn't mean when I went to a baseball championship that I would expect anything other than what the rules are. Same for WB, I've shot it many different ways with many different rules at many different clubs. That has entailed everything from any rifle to no rifle, including any pre-1920 weapons, use model 12, or A5 shotguns and even the one time with a thompson. But when I go to a SASS sanctioned Wild Bunch match, I expect it to be ran by the published rules even though I personally don't like the allowed sight modifications within the traditional category. I told every person on the committee my opinion just for the record. The committee has a valid point that the gun manufacturers make the available guns just to restrictive. That committee has done a very good job developing a workable set of rules for a nation wide competition. So, that's why I say, don't just stand back and throw stones, become active in the administration and help steer the events. And if that is not possible the only choices that remain are to accept it the way it is or start your own the way you see fit. I see no other solution.

 

Dan, I'm have no idea if the sport will grow or last. I participate because I want to. I can say that from the very first match I participated in at Buffalo Stampede 3 years ago till the last World Championship this past June has produced a steady growth of shooters. Enthusiasm was extremely high at this last World Championship. Will it last? I dunno. Takes someone smarter that me to figure that out. I can also say that the skill demonstrated by some of the shooters is quite impressive. I've also noticed that the learning curve for folks that had never touched a 1911 a couple of years ago has grown quite rapidly also. The way some of the ladies shoot is most impressive also.

 

Frankly, I cannot imagine, that anyone would have their fun ruined by a round or two in a magazine or a larger caliber rifle. But if it does, no one will ever denigrate that person for feeling that way.