Tomboy Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Howdy, Okay, so SASS says mixing a 1911 category w. a regular SASS match is a big no-no. Fine, their outfit, their rules. So why do they limit mag capacity to 5 rounds in an official SASS Wild Bunch match? Just wonderin. Thanks, T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 I'd suggest making that inquiry over on the WBAS forum. (y'all KNEW someone was going to post this) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack, SASS #20451 Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 PaleWolf, You Da Man !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 I'd suggest making that inquiry over on the WBAS forum. (y'all KNEW someone was going to post this) Didn;t even know there was a seperate website for WB. Thanks - cool intro video with Tex too. Lookin' at acquirin a '97 SG so I can 'play' also GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Because changing magazines is half of the fun and challenge. That's my guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 So what has mag capacity limits have to do with the mixing of WB and Cowboy action. True, it makes the mixing of the two easier, but they do not limit the number of mags that can be used in WB matches. (At least up to a point anyway). Probably makes scenario writing and target counts, (and scoring), easier to manage. RBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomboy Posted August 1, 2011 Author Share Posted August 1, 2011 No, I think they made the rules and then changed their minds as to integrating into SASS. PS. been on the Wild Bunch Wire, the moderators don't care for controversy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Adams 3674 Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 No, I think they made the rules and then changed their minds as to integrating into SASS. PS. been on the Wild Bunch Wire, the moderators don't care for controversy. Bullfeathers! The moderators give straight up answers with no BS. Some folks just don't like straight answers! yhs, GA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Sometimes it's not that you ask a controversial question. It's the way you ask it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Tom Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 I think you answered your own question when you said "Fine, their outfit, their rules." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Well everyone knows I like to pipe up. My perception is that is not tolerated as well over there as it is here on the Wahr. They prefer more of a Kumbayah campfire. Oh well. A few of us have questioned the 5 pistol round rule. No one can give a GOOD reason for the rule because there is not one. It just is. John Moses Browning designed the 1911 to be cocked and locked and load 7 in the mag. We don't get to. Oh well. Still great fun, I just love it. The way I understand it, is originally the scenarios were easier to run with 5 round mags. OK. No big deal. The actual Wild Bunch are calling the shots for WBAS and that's as it should be. So we are stuck with 5 round mags for the 1911 until a majority of those ole boys can be convinced to change their minds and let us rock and roll cocked and locked and load seven. It could happen. Someday. We can hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 I bet as Wild Bunch Matches become stand alone matches like Mounted then the 5 round will be increased to 7 or 8 per mag down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 The allowed equipment sheds light on the premise that Wild Bunch was always meant to be cowboy with 1911's the entire time. If it had been intended (from the onset) as a stand alone discipline: Even if the rules denied cocked and locked condition for the 1911's, the magazines would, at least, be fully loaded. Model 12 Winchesters would be an allowable shotgun. Acceptable rifles would have been late 1800's /early 1900's bolt guns with reduced loads. In other words, a game that is actually different than cowboy. IMO, the five round mag capacity was intended to integrate WB into the cowboy ranks. I sincerely believe that the original plan was for cowboy and Wild Bunch shooters to compete side by side, that Wild Bunch was to simply be another category within cowboy. Thankfully this did not occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckhorn Woodie Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Heck I guess I am just to simple minded.....I just automatically assumed when I read the WB rules the purpose of the 5 rounds was for more mag changes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 OK, here are my thoughts on why... WBAS started as an offshoot of SASS CAS where stages often have 5 shot pistol strings... In it's infancy a WB category was shot along side normal cats in a SASS CAS match...(still is some places and some matches) Now that WBAS is a toddler, they have stand alone matches that allow stages to be tailored for that type/style of shooting...(for example more than 10 total pistol rounds) A majority of folks shooting WBAS matches are CAS shooters and are used to 5 shot pistol strings... Speed reloads of an automatic is a valuable skill to develop, only 5 in each mag makes you practice it more and gives more to do on each stage. Simply emptying a full mag on a 1911, a full tube on a 97 and fully loaded big bore 73 would get boring... * * * * * So there are some things to think about, I have no connection with the Wild Bunch, or rules makers for WBAS, and don't even shoot it myself. But the thoughts above make sense to me. YMMV Grizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crooked jake,4371 Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Howdy, Okay, so SASS says mixing a 1911 category w. a regular SASS match is a big no-no. Fine, their outfit, their rules. So why do they limit mag capacity to 5 rounds in an official SASS Wild Bunch match? Just wonderin. Thanks, T. cause you would lose the grip on yer pisstoly if ya went past five ............geez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Local clubs have allowed WB for sometime now. 5 rounds evens it out. That's my guess. If you have a WB match only then there's no need to restrict it to 5 rounds. Good question, great topic. Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.J. Mc Draw Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Just came back from a local club shoot, and one feller shot wild bunch out of 24. It didn't hold the match up and we all had a good time. The same pardner shoots his six guns faster that the semi auto, and usually wins the matches he attends. Collect the money for the club and have fun.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 costs less GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Flimshaw Sass# 73310 Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Didn;t even know there was a seperate website for WB. Thanks - cool intro video with Tex too. Lookin' at acquirin a '97 SG so I can 'play' also This is why people post here, most people look here and not at the WB site.......Doc GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Hi Tomboy, I don't know the reason. However, I like it. Shooting pistol strings that are multiples of five makes it easier to transition from CAS to WBAS and back. After my first multiday WBAS State match that was followed by a CAS Annual, I had to remind myself to cock. So, for me having some similarities is good. I think it's refreshing to have a forum where rudeness is not allowed. Also, if the rules are "set in stone," there will be less controversy and uniform expectations. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaukValley Sam, SASS # 66557 Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 My thought is that since most WB shooters are also experienced SASS shooters then they are used to 5 round strings from revolvers. Some one used to shooting five rounds and holstering a revolver might inadvertently shoot five rounds from a 1911 and try to ground or holster a locked and cocked 1911 with two rounds left. To me its a safety issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korupt Karl Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 While WB is typically a sidematch or a stand alone shoot, the ones who shoot this sport and spot for this sport are cowboys and it's a habit to count the five from each gun and to also use the similar scenarios. Five rounds make sense. Of course if it was six, someone would want seven, or eight or an extended magazine and so on. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Adams 3674 Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 My thought is that since most WB shooters are also experienced SASS shooters then they are used to 5 round strings from revolvers. Some one used to shooting five rounds and holstering a revolver might inadvertently shoot five rounds from a 1911 and try to ground or holster a locked and cocked 1911 with two rounds left. To me its a safety issue. +1 And for the same reason, WB shooters start from condition 3, and not from a locked and cocked condition (condition 1), and are not allowed execute tactical reloads. So many folks coming into WB have very little, if any experience with the 1911. WBAS rules take this into consideration, and provide a safer and more easily managed environment. I know a lot of folks with experience in other games chaf a bit about the rules, but they work well for the SASS community. IMHO The WB WIRE is a excellent resource for those playing this game. Check it out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomboy Posted August 2, 2011 Author Share Posted August 2, 2011 Howdy all, Not trying to rile folks up. Locally we shoot it as a category. Usually w. the WB guys all on one posse. We have a blast and the other shooters don't mind. We tell the brass pickers to do what is timely and let the rest go. By the way, I can assure anyone who is concerned: Wild Bunch rules aside, you really can pop off more than 5 rounds w.o. losing control. Cheers, T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062 Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 I think you answered your own question when you said "Fine, their outfit, their rules." BINGO ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomboy Posted August 2, 2011 Author Share Posted August 2, 2011 Thanks for contributing, Jack. -T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Hoss Fly #63711 Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Thanks for contributing, Jack. -T Iffin you contributed dues to the WB they mite change the rules for ya- Think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 My thought is that since most WB shooters are also experienced SASS shooters then they are used to 5 round strings from revolvers. Some one used to shooting five rounds and holstering a revolver might inadvertently shoot five rounds from a 1911 and try to ground or holster a locked and cocked 1911 with two rounds left. To me its a safety issue. In an effort to keep it civil - "Safety issue?" Phuleeze! If we keep dumbing down our rules because we think folks aren't smart enough to learn more/better safety procedures then we will always be thought of by other shooting sports as the kids in the short bus. Demand responsibility and you will get a safer shooter. Trust me, everyone knows the difference between a revolver and a 1911. I have never seen anyone try to cock a 1911 between shots, or try to load shells into a fully stoked 97 shotgun. I think they can also count higher than five. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Exactly. I come to shoot not practice mag changes. Ole John Moses Browning designed the 1911 to be carried cocked and locked with a fully loaded mag. That we are not allowed to is condescending to us as shooters. Most of us know how to operate a 1911 quite handily thank you. Those that don't are a fresh slate and can just as easily learn how to do it right than learn this condition 3 with 5 round mag business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Seems like most of the confusion comes when you try to shoot WBAS concurrent with a CAS match. Wild Bunch Action Shooting is NOT Cowboy Action Shooting with a 1911. Blackfoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Since I have not gone to and watched a WB match, all I have to go by are the ones I see folded into the monthly match format locally. As some have stated, what I see integrates pretty well with CAS as long as certain advantages/disadvantages are recognized and the two shooting styles are not scored together competitively. With SASS being very experienced at handling target arrays based on five rounds, this becomes familiar to the shooter on his first try and indeed I have seen the old WB side match stage actually shot on what would be a SASS State level shoot coming up the next day. Pretty much in the same vain we would always shoot an end of the match WB side match on a stage just shot in our monthly, stages were interchangeable. Tell the WB shooter to shoot in a, your choice of funky names, Sweep and he will know exactly what is expected without much else in the way of instructions, that would not work at some of the other formal shooting disciplines match. I have not seen any confusion with mixing the WB and CAS in the regular match and since they are not even scored with a standing in the CAS portion, there has been no reason for complaints there either. I do not shoot WB but I have seen it folded into regular monthly matches a few times now and can testify that it does work without problems but just like with a new garment, a loose thread here and there can lead to problems when you find an individual who would rather pick at it than fix it. I would like to have seen the modern category allow C&L and holstering one that was locked back, even if it required the shooter to pass a proficiency test as was done early on with the Gunfighters. But I guess in the end WB was never meant to keep one familiar with their standard carry mode for the 1911. As to how John Browning intended for our military to carry the 1911, what was the earliest carry method required by our military? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 ............ As to how John Browning intended for our military to carry the 1911, what was the earliest carry method required by our military? Condition 3. And that's what they taught me in '66, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Adams 3674 Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Condition 3. And that's what they taught me in '66, +1 Gee Bob, we must be old guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomboy Posted August 3, 2011 Author Share Posted August 3, 2011 Yeah, Bob, I was there: they also taught us to shoot in duelist position w. left hand on hip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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