Pay Dirt Norvelle #90056 Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I have been shooting SASS for a few months and by luck I had a pair of 1858 C&B Remingtons to start with. I now would like to be able to shoot .45cal cartridges and had a question. Would it be better to buy a pair of .45 SA Cimmaron Revolvers or get a pair of .45 conversion cylinders for my Remingtons? The Remingtons are Euroarms which I have had for about 20 years so they are a bit long in the tooth. The only problem I see is that two cylinders would cost as much as one SA and I would probably have to get them fit to my C&B Remingtons. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I would suggest you contact Strite/Kirst at kirstkonverter.com and ask "Raven" about fitting Kirst conversions to your guns. It is a lot of fun to be able to do either on one frame. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 +1 to contacting Raven & +1 about having a percussion/cartridge revolver. --Dawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Whichever you go with, look into .45 cowboy special brass by Adirondack Jack. This brass is a .45 Colt cut back to the length of a .45 ACP. Reload with Colt case holder, .45 Colt sizer and ACP expander and seat/crimp dies. This is a much more efficeint set-up saving about a grain per load to get the same verlocity as mild Colt loads. It is also much more consistent on the mild loads. AJ is the only source for ths brass. I use it for FC/BP loads. About your C&B pistols, I have shot them for years. The quality of most of the guns made up to 1990 was questionable. I never owned own from that period that would have stood the rigors of SASS competition, but I am sure that others have not had those problems. I did shoot mine with maximum loads for rabbit hunting, carrying as a dispatch arm for deer and carrying in the fields for wild dogs. It is amazing what a full load of FFFg and a 220-grain conical bullet from a ROA will do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 It is a matter of preference, I choose the non ported conversions. It is almost as fast to load and clear as a gated revolver and you get to have the added bonus of a regular cap and ball also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabalero Chuck Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Howell brand conversion cylinders to fit Pietta 1858 Remington is sale priced at MidwayUSA this month. These are the six firing pin style with a blued finish. Part # 292-272 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 This is one of the easiest questions that I have answered on the wire. Now, you must remember that my answer is only my opinion, but I guess that is what you get anytime that you ask a question. Buy the 45 model"P" revolvers. They will easily out perform the 58s... or any other C&B pistols using convertion cylinders. The ONLY thing that I see good about those convertion cylinders is that you can obtain a unregistered cartridge gun. I've had them for a pair of 58s, and also for a pair of 61s. They are novel..... but slow to load, and in the case of the 36 cal C&B guns, you need to load special ammo or they won't shoot very good due to the size of the barrel. My vote is hands down for the new pair of model "P"s. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Seen #16162 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 To quote the former V.P. Cheney "I have more guns than I need but not as many as I want" my vote is for more guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo_Sam Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 +1 to Snakebite. I own two Model P's and two revolvers with R&D cylinders. The only reason I own the cylinder conversions is because I got the cap-and-ball revolvers for free from a relative. I consider them to be "backup guns" that I keep in case a gun fails, or for plinking. I do not expect them to have the same performance or survive as much abuse as my Model P's. -Solo Sam #91319 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Shooting conversions in SASS is a hoot all in itself and well worth the venture. I don't know if you'll find it so promising with such veteran shooters as you have. I myself started with a couple of ROA's and used a couple of R&D cylinders. Even with that I had to trim a few thousandths off each cylinder to get them to fit. Not due to any problem with R&D mind you, but due to Ruger being off 4 thousandths on one gun and 7 thousandths on the other. The cylinders mic'd spot on. But certainly if you felt less than sure of the older guns and bought new for the conversions, or just bought a couple of factory made conversions you might as well get a couple of new 45's and keep on shooting your Remmies. Best of luck to you on what ever you decide. Smithy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nichols Creek, SASS #77627 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Give Jay a call at Ravens Roost.....he'll set ya right up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfgang, SASS #53480 Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 If you like the feel and handling of the '58 Remingtons, . . .then get conversion cylinders for them. Then later . . get a pair of the Model "P"s also, . . Then get MORE GUNS, ..... and more guns . . . and MORE AND MORE AND MORE GUNS . . . . 8 years ago I got one cheap brass frame Cap & Ball pistot off of "Gunbroker" to "try out single action shooting" . . mind you . . . just to "try it out a little bit" . . . Just a sample of whut I have now. And I just bought another original Winchester '73. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Would it be better to buy a pair of .45 SA Cimmaron Revolvers Never pass up a chance to get another set of revolvers , plus you always need a set of backups Good Luck Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 I liked the R&D cylinders best. You can shoot C&B or cartridge as you want and the guns are very versatile. They are also EXTREMELY accurate with the cartridge cylinders and after a few times loading them you can load or unload almost as fast as a regular cartridge gun. A reload on the clock is the only drawback, but I haven't encountered one in several years. I'd contact Tom at Taylors and Co. for fitting the R&DS, He's done several for me and other friends of mine, at no charge except shipping, and faster than you'd believe. The Euro Arms models will hold up well and the Pale Rider image is worth many style points. Plus ... like I said you can always go right back to cap'n'ball at will! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 I have the Cimmaron RM Conversions and can tell you without a doubt that there is no comparison between the feel of these big guns and an actual cap and ball that has been converted. I am not talking about quality here but rather the actual size difference between the guns, like comparing an old model Ruger Vaquero to a Colt. The factory designed Conversions were enlarged and beefed up considerably. This equates to a very noticeable difference in the way the two guns feel and handle. Trying to compare them as two different ways to obtain the same end will be flawed from the start. Figure the pluses and minuses of both versions and decide from there. I prefer the lighter balance and feel of a converted cap and ball. To me it also makes for a more slender and attractive gun. If you elect to go without an extractor or porting cuts and do the "no name" style reloads then the high cost of converters can be offset by the fact that they can follow you from gun to gun (this concept is more practical for Remington style revolvers). Once the cylinder cost is amortized out of the equation, actual gun cost goes way down on the cap and ball guns over factory conversions. I was recently informed that a new fangled cylinder is in the works for the Cowboy 45 special fans and should be out in a few months. It will be chambered to allow interchangeability between the 45special and the 45acp. Do know that if you go for a full blown Kirst style conversion that you will pay a much higher price than a Uberti conversion costs. Though the Kirst is a quality product, it does leave some things to be desired. All of my older cylinders were sharp on the front edge and eat holster leather something terrible, just the same as did the original bp cylinders. I have been told that this is no longer the case but I have not seen the newer ones yet. This also brings us to the fact that styles have changed pretty regularly with the Kirst cylinders and a little research might turn up something from the past that you would prefer to shop for used. I have had several pairs through the years and every one has worked with every clone I tried them in BUT they sometimes changed the feel of the action and usually for the worse until gunsmithed. PS: Remember that the beefed up factory guns was to allow a six shooter and for this reason you will lose one chamber with the Kirst conversions also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 That reminds me, the R&D cylinders for Remington hold six cartridges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 I see a few references to the cost of conversion cylinders being a bit much, sometimes as much as the revolver itself. I took a look around and at Fall Creek Sutlery http://www.fcsutler.com/fccwrevolvers.asp they were listing their R&D cylinders from between $240.00 and $270.00 depending on blue or stainless. Now if you just shelled out 7 to 8 hundred for a ROA, the cost of that cylinder is a small percentage more. However if you purchased a Cabella's Peitta revolver for around 3 hundred then yes you are doubling your costs. The way I looked at it was to look at what Ruger was charging for a replacement BP cylinder assembly for the gun I had. My conversion cylinder was right in the ball park. Smithy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Howdy I'm glad this post is still up, as I was out of town when it first appeared. I have a pair of Remmies fitted with R&D conversion cylinders. One of them is an old EuroArms import I bought brand spanky new in 1975. So perhaps my direct experience with the a EuroArms Remmies like the original poster talked about will be of some value. First off, take a look at the front sight on my old EuroArms Remmie. Does it look taller than the front sights on yours? Remmmie Front Sight No, that is not the original front sight that came on it. As a matter of fact, I will bet you dollars to donuts that the front sights on your old EuroArms Remmies are nowhere near this tall. Back then, the front sights on these imports were much shorter. I dunno why, but they all came through with much shorter front sights. As a consequence, most of them shot high. Before I invested in the R&D cylinder for my Remmie, it used to shoot about six or eight inches high at typical CAS distances as a C&B revolver. So the first thing I did before investing over two hundred bucks in the cylinder was to see if I could bring the point of impact closer to the point of aim. I ordered the front sight for a Uberti Remmie. It was considerably taller than the original front sight. The dovetail for the Uberti sight was bigger and would not fit the original dove tail. No big deal, I took the gun to a competent gunsmith and told him to cut a new dovetail for the taller front sight and install it. Very easy, only cost a few bucks. A quick trip to the range verified that the gun was now printing right at point of aim with a typical round ball load and around 30 grains of FFg. I just put a caliper on the front sight, it stands about .360 tall. So the next step was to go ahead and order the cylinder. R&D makes this particular 45 conversion cylinder in three flavors. One fits the Ruger Old Army, one fits the Uberti version of the Remmie and one fits the Pietta version of the Remmie. All three are slightly different in size. The Ruger version is not germain to this discussion. The Uberti Remmie is slightly larger than the Pietta version. Hence the two different sizes. In fact, the Pietta version is much closer in size to the original 1858 Remington than the Uberti version, but that is a whole nother story. I consulted a local dealer who sells the conversion cylinders, and he could not advise me of which to buy. He suggested I call Taylors, who is the actual distributor for the R&D cylinders. Let me now agree with Blackwater Desperado. If you are interested in R&D conversion cylinders for your EuroArms Remmies, call Taylors. You ship them the guns, they fit cylinders to them. The fee for fitting the cylinders is NOTHING! Nada! Zero. You pay to ship the guns down, which you can do by the way since they are C&B cylinders. Tom down there has a rig that he mounts your gun onto. He takes a cylinder that is lacking the locking notches, and using your gun as a jig, he cuts the locking notches into the cylinder to fit your gun perfectly. This means the cylinder is perfectly timed to your gun, and you can pop the C&B cylinders back in any time you want because nothing has been changed in the lockwork of the gun. That's what he did with my old EuroArms Remmie. For reference, he used a Pietta cylinder because the EuroArms Remmie is a good match for size to the Pietta. Then, he shaved some steel off the front of the cylinder to get the length correct for the barrel/cylinder gap. Then he sent the cylinder out to be reblued because he had cut the front down to raw steel. Let me repeat, all this skilled fitting was FREE!!!! I was only charged for the cylinder, same price as in the catalog. The gun was shipped back to me with the C&B cylinder in place, so it was shipped as a C&B gun. The Conversion cylinder was in a small box in the same package with the gun. I dunno how Taylors can afford this, but that's what they did for me. And I talked to Tom a couple of times, he explained to me exactly what he was doing. A couple of further notes about the C&B Remmie converted to cartridges. Frankly, the steel inside them is a little bit soft. Guess What? So is the steel inside anything made by Uberti! It's up to you whether you want to go the conversion route or want to go with a typical SAA clone. Yes, I have never seen an 1858 Remmie conversion win EOT. So if you are looking to take top honors all the time, you will probably be better off with a SAA clone that has been tricked out. If you want something a bit different, and want to have some fun, the 1858 Remmie with a R&D cylinder is great fun. Frankly, I cannot imagine why anybody thinks it is slow to load. You pop out the cylinder, pull off the cap, and you poke out the empties with a stick. Then you put five fresh cartridges in, put the cap back on the cylinder, and pop the cylinder back in the gun. How is that any slower than unloading and loading a SAA clone one chamber at a time? About the only thing that is quicker is a Schofield, because it dumps all its empties automatically. The R&D cylinders are completely proofed for Smokeless cowboy loads, so no problem there. I only shoot Black Powder in my Remmies, and if you want to shoot Black Powder in yours, there is a slight problem. Because of the cylinder design, the 1858 Remmie is just about the worst Black Powder shooter there is. It lacks a cylinder bushing to deflect fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap away from the small diameter cylinder pin. So with Black Powder, and most substitutes they bind up quickly. I shoot mine exclusively with Big Lube bullets with huge amounts of SPG in the lube groove, and even so, they bind up quickly. The solution is simple. You have to pop the cylinder out of the gun every time you reload it anyway. Take that opportunity to wipe off the face of the cylinder with a damp cloth. Wipe it down for every reload and you will get through a match with no problem. Let's look at a few more photos. Does the barrel marking on your EuroArms Remmie look like this? Barrel Marking Now drop the loading lever and turn over the gun. Does it have a marking like this on the underside of the barrel? DGG If yes, DGG inside a circle is the marking that Armi San Paolo put on their guns. EuroArms did not make anything. They contracted with other makers to make guns for them. Most of the EuroArms Remmies that I have seen were actually made by Armi San Paolo. How about the loading lever latch? Does it look like this? Latch If so, it is probably a little bit too wide to use to poke the empties out of the chambers. Like this. Too Wide No big deal, I either use the ram from my Uberti Remmie to poke empties out of both cylinders, or I use a small brass rod that I carry to the unloading table along with my damp rag. I no longer fire full house 45 Colt Black Powder loads in my Remmies. There is something a little bit uncomfortable about the grip with a full house 45 Colt Black Powder load. Not quite as pleasant as shooting them in a Colt. Instead, I usually fire 45 Schofields out of my Remmies with a 200 grain J/P 45-200 bullet, which was developed specifically for shooting in my Remmies. Recoil is much more tolerable with the Schofield loads. When I bought my R&D cylinders, the counterbore in the cylinder for the rims was slightly too small in diameter for the slightly larger 45 Schofield rims. I had Happy Trails bore the counterbores slightly larger for Schofield rims. While he was at it I had him cut the counterbores right through the sides of the cylinders. This made nice 'viewing windows' that allows me to see at a glance whether or not there is a cartridge in a particular cylinder. Viewing Windows I am pretty sure these changes have since been incorporated in the R&D cylinders; larger diameter counterbores for 45 Schofields and 'viewing windows'. Bottom line, if like me you long ago amortized the cost of your EuroArms Remmies, adding conversion cylinders is a relatively inexpensive way to get a couple of nifty and unusual cartridge guns. Particularly if you take advantage of the Free Fitting option from Taylors. If on the other hand, it is important to you to win EOT, buy some SAA clones and have an action job performed on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Coop SASS 5791 L Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 So DJ, have you written your book yet on shooting blackpowder C&B and Cartridges. Seriously, folks on the wire, I have been reading DJ's posts for many years on this wire, and I admire him and his knowledge very much. Someday, I hope I have the opportunity to participate with him in a CAS match. To the origanal poster, I offer these comments. Back around 2000, I started shooting Navy Arms Pietta Remmies with both C&B cylinders and R&D Conversion cylinders. Won a few matches with them, but sold them. I finally got a pair of Ruger ROA's in 2003 and shot them both as C&B and with R&D conversion cylinders thru 2009. I have two Top Ten Winter Range belt buckle awards using my ROA's before selling them last year. I prize my Top Ten buckles, and wear one very day. Nonetheless, shoot what you like, and if Conversion cylinders float your boat by all means shoot them. I never concerned myself about cost to equip my ROA's with R&D Conversion Cylinders. I just DID IT, 'cause I wanted to. I still have one Remmie from Dixie Gun Works with an R&D Conversion cylinder, and I get it out once and a while to shoot. Coop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pay Dirt Norvelle #90056 Posted August 1, 2011 Author Share Posted August 1, 2011 Thanks for all the information. Now it is time to do some thinking. One of my 1858s is a Armi Sao Paolo Brand and the other is marked Euro Arms so I think they are both Armi Sao Paolo. I will probably Call Taylors in a couple of weeks to talk with them. I will have to wait a couple of months to get the conversion cylinders as I am saving my pennies for a trip to Gettysburg in mid-October, but after that I will probably be ready to go. In the meantime I will be shooting Black Powder C&B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 This is one of the easiest questions that I have answered on the wire. Now, you must remember that my answer is only my opinion, but I guess that is what you get anytime that you ask a question. Buy the 45 model"P" revolvers. They will easily out perform the 58s... or any other C&B pistols using convertion cylinders. The ONLY thing that I see good about those convertion cylinders is that you can obtain a unregistered cartridge gun. I've had them for a pair of 58s, and also for a pair of 61s. They are novel..... but slow to load, and in the case of the 36 cal C&B guns, you need to load special ammo or they won't shoot very good due to the size of the barrel. My vote is hands down for the new pair of model "P"s. Snakebite +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfgang, SASS #53480 Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Thanks for all the information. Now it is time to do some thinking. One of my 1858s is a Armi Sao Paolo Brand and the other is marked Euro Arms so I think they are both Armi Sao Paolo. I will probably Call Taylors in a couple of weeks to talk with them. I will have to wait a couple of months to get the conversion cylinders as I am saving my pennies for a trip to Gettysburg in mid-October, but after that I will probably be ready to go. In the meantime I will be shooting Black Powder C&B. If you really like shooting Cap & Ball . . . then one option is to simply continue shooting cap & Ball I happen to find the fit in my hand of the Pietta replica Remingtons to be perfect for me. They point naturally for me and far better than any other revolvers I've ever fired. I do have one conversion cylinder but only have it for using cartridge blanks for reenactments. I have quite a collection of extra cylinders for the '58 Remingtons. Reloading is easy with lots of extra pre charged cylinders. Just an option to consider. I bought a couple of the extra cylinders from Cabelas soon after getting my first Remington. And have since been buying more of them when ever offered on the wire. Since I cannot recall just how many I have ... I might have enough Maybe The same goes for my collection of Remingtons. Am I a gunnaholic . . . ? I don't know about getting extra cylinders for those Armi San Palo pistols though. I had a Euroarms '58 ( which I gave to my brother and so don't have it on hand ). I wasn't aware that they sold pistols from different makers. It's cylinder was very different that the Pietta ones. I have a Army San Marco pistol and it's cylinders are a few thousands longer than the Pietta ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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