Granny Annie SASS #37063 Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 I was surfin the web the other day and I came across the scores for the recent Utah State Championship. I always like to read to scores to see if there were folks there that we know. I noticed one thing right away. There were several categories with only 1 or 2 people in them. I checked with a friend who was at the match and was told that the folks in those 1 and 2 person categories did receive the same awards as the folks in the categories with lots of participants. I also noticed today that there were single person categories listed at Indiana State but I haven't checked on their award policy. I know Iowa State had several categories with 1 or 2 and I know they were awarded the same as the larger categories. This immediately put Utah State and possibly Indiana State on my list of "Shoots We Want To Do." These folks obviously think the purpose of the match is to provide an entertainment venue for folks and to promote the shooting sports. (Those of you who know me know that this has been a real complaint of mine for a very long time.) I know from experience that it is not fun to be put into a category at the last minute that you don't want to be in and it's really not fun to shoot your chosen category anyway with no possibility for an award. Again, this is supposed to be fun! I also visited with another friend of mine who was involved in the summit where it was decided that the match directors could decide how many needed to be in a category and that the match directors could decide if awards would be given for small categories. I asked him what the reasoning was for this and he replied: 1. They try to keep cost down for every shooter. 2. Five or more shooters will pay for the trophies for that category. 3. There are to many categories, and some want more. Here's my take on these "excuses." 1. They try to keep cost down for every shooter. If the trophy is $25 and there are 100 shooters that would save each shooter only .25 for each category not awarded. I'm sure I would be willing to pay .25 extra for the trophies!! When shooter fees are usully $75 or higher, I doubt that a .25 less shooter fee (or even a dollar or two if there were several small categories) would make any difference to most shooters. 2. Five or more shooters will pay for the trophies for that category. True however, there are always other categories with way over 5. They need to look at the profitability of the entire match - not each individual category. By the way, if they say it takes 5 shooters to pay for the trophy and the trophy is $25 that's $5 per shooter. If the senior category has 30 participants that would be $150 towards trophies that they only needed $25 for. Perhaps that other $125 could be used to fund the smaller categories! 3. There are to many categories, and some want more. -- There may be "to many categories" but SASS created the categories so I believe they should be awarded! If they don't want the categories then they should talk to SASS about that. Also, I'll bet most of the more recent categories have been added by the TG's who are now complaining that there are to many categories. I'm sure I'm opening myself up to a whole lot of wire bashing but I'd love to hear what other folks have to say about this. Particularly folks who shoot these smaller categories. And please don't start with, "if you ran a match" because I do own a range and I do run a match so I fully understand the expenses associated with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963 Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Grannie, i respect your opinion and wish it were that easy. first there are very few clubs in my area that can get $75 or more for an annual. by the time we pay range fees, portapotties, and printers, overall and shoot off and side match awards there's only so much left for the caterer and main match awards. after we include two meals there is even less. the west end outlaws honor all sass catagories but not every club can afford to do it. occasionally every attendee buckles. thats $10-12 right there then additional 1st place, 2nd and 3rd place awards.it just keeps adding up. its tough to have 5 or six catagories with one shooter. that skewes your $0.25 per shooter considerably when 4 or 5 shooters that could be in other catagories are all getting the $25 award. take a look at oregons match. i'm sure its a great match but if i'm reading it right they had 77 shooters in 18 catagories. thats an ave of 4 per cat. i wont even get into the debate of cat shopping. just try to be understanding that most clubs cant do it all and have ins to pay and targets to repair or replace. CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet Trouble Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Not that I'm ever going to win a shooting award in CAS, but to get a trophy in a category for which I am the only shooter, or one of only two or three shooters, would mean absolutely NOTHING to me. Heck, it's not even bragging rights, and I'd be ashamed to even tell people about such a trophy, which is why I don't waste my time "category shopping" to improve my chances of winning something solely by virtue of there being no competition. I know people who claim "world championships" for categories in which there were probably less than 10 shooters. (Really?) I sure get a lot more excited about trophies when it means I've gotten into the top spot out of 200 shooters, or 5th out of 800 (both of which I have done in ATA trap) or even just improved my own personal score from last year whether or not I win a dust collector for it. Guess I'm just saying that the trophies ought to at least mean something. That may not be everyone's view and everyone is looking to get something different out of the game, but the way I play it, trophies should mean something and I'd prefer not to bother with them unless they do. Nevertheless, the Utah State Shoot should go on anyone's list of must-do shoots! It's not an exceptionally big shoot, but it was a lot of fun even though I ended up shooting pretty much near the bottom of the pack. Obviously, it had nothing to do with trophies, but everything to do with a cute cowboy town to shoot in, a great dress to wear to the banquet which I was proud to say I made myself, perfect weather, our best cowboy friends shooting on the same posse, and seeing all the great people that I expect to see every year at this shoot. Those guys run a good show and it will be an annual event for us. "Not always Sweet, but nearly always Trouble" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mokaac Kid Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 The Cowboy town in price is one of the best around. The club there is not very big but they put on a great shoot. They also gave out 5 firearms as door prizes. I will continue to go every year. The Huntsman World Senior Games is another great shoot that doesn't combine catagories. The Dixie Desperados host that shoot in October. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosscut Jack, SASS #67759 Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Not that there is much chance that I will ever win a trophy. But when a person pays the same entry fee as everyone else they are entitiled to win a trophy No matter how many are in their posse! Be it one (1) or 25. They travel is far as everyone else and further than some. They spend money for meals and lodging. Yes, they do have a lot fun and do enjoy the campionship of their fellow shooters. For a great many of us that is the main reason we are there. We will keep shooting as time, money, & health permit us to do so. That is why me and mine shoot. Crosscut Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cinch, SASS#29433 Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 The Castle Gate Posse is a great bunch and I am proud to call them friends and even be a club member!! The match was fun and promises to get better next year with them examining some of the minor problems this year... Ya'll come!! Granny, The thing with awarding folks with only 1 shooter in the category is it's tuff to decide what to do from a Match Director standpoint. Since you know and love some of the 1 in a category shooters, yet it's a competition, but people like to win awards, and ya gotta offer the categories, and, and, and... I've often thought: 1. You should compete against someone. In a state championship match there may be 20-40 shooters in the 49'r category. The winner will be the state champ, and have the same buckle that the 1 in a category shooter gets 2. There should be a way to fold the 1 in a category folks in with like skill set shooters without either bunch getting upset. This simply makes for a little bit of competition 3. If a 1 in a category shooter pre-registers and refuses to be "rolled" into another category, then their award could be mailed to them and they could go to another shoot the same weekend and be the winner of several at once 4. They could get their buckle in the shooters packet and then help with the match and save ammunition 5. In my time in this game I have known a couple category shoppers who coulda just as easily "shopped" into a category with at least one other shooter 6. Those that are their to shoot, have fun, enjoy the companionship of fellow shooters shouldn't worry about the "trophy" and just enjoy the shoot unless their are 2 or 3 in their category It is a sticky deal because some folks truly just love to shoot the category they shoot and there has got to be room for them somehow. Maybe a 3rd place maximum and no state championship buckle for the 1 in a category folks? There has to be a way to maybe win an award without "winning" the same award as someone who "had" to win theirs ( )... I think combining at least a little solves more than it hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 I just asked a non shooting friend that is knowledgeable with other sports and awards about giving/honoring awards in an amateur sport such as CAS. She said that awards should be given to the first three places, regardless of number of people in that catagory. She used the World Olympics as the example. Gold, Silver and Bronze,,,, thats it. Ya know, that makes perfect since/sense/cents to me. She also said it was rather meaningless to be the sole winner of the Gold, but oh-well, give the metal to that person(s) anyway, With that, MD can pre order the trophies w/o to much worry. Cost will be rather an up front known, following this philosphy. Just saying..... Blastmaster Edit: Friend also said that competators should only shoot in their age catagory if applicable and not be able to go down/up in catagory to cherry pick for an award. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Whenever you compete, it's only possible to beat those who show. The rest you beat by default since they are NO SHOW/ DNF's. Who knows? They may have all MDQ'd anyway....or maybe they know how BAD you are and you scared them off runnin' down the street with their hair on fire! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cinch, SASS#29433 Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 They have several years of meetings, presentations, and trials so that the Olympic committee can make sure there is enough interest in an event to keep that very thing from happening. If there wasn't any interest from the participating countries there wouldn't be an event and they surely wouldn't award a gold to the only country that sent a team. I was fortunate enough to attend some of the Olympic meetings in Salt Lake when the opening ceremonies were being planned. I can assure you that with the attention to detail the committee gives to each country who participates they absolutely wouldn't let Sweden skate around for 4 periods and then give them a gold medal in hockey. If Sweden was the only participant the event would be scratched. Now back to your regularly scheduled program... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Hey, Cinch! When are the SASS Olympics scheduled in SLC? I'd like to get some tickets! This old horse died a long, long time ago. If a club is offering a category then if Sweden shows up and Utah doesn't then the buckle goes to.....the only shooter who doesn't DNF.... Ain't 32 categories wonderful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cinch, SASS#29433 Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Brother King, Was replying to Blastmaster's gold medal post... but you knew that. I have been playing this game, attending, and putting on matches long enough to know how it is... but I also know how it should be Maybe a buckle with an asterisk... Swerved off topic again!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lefty pete Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 maybe they should give a list of the folks in your cat. so you can show your pards how others did also.A list of who you beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet Trouble Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Cinch, I find myself agreeing with you and what you say makes complete sense to me. A trophy is something you have to earn by being a better shooter than the next guy - operative words here are "next guy".... aren't "attendance buckles" the ones you get for just showing up? I think there's a difference. I would agree that the State Championship trophy for the shooter who is the only guy in his category does cheapen it quite a bit for the person who won the equivalent title in another category, but to get it, that other guy had to shoot against 30 or 40 people at the same match. If the match policy is stated up front that there must be "X" number of shooters in a category before trophies will be given (which is standard policy in some other shooting organizations that I know of), no one can complain that they were rolled into another category or weren't given the trophy-ahem!-attendance buckle-that they felt they were entitled to, because the rules are lined out in advance and shooters should make themselves aware of them before they plunk their money down. Honestly, I don't care how the match directors decide to do it and my attendance at a match will never be based on trophy distribution. They can give trophies/attendance buckles to whomever they please and under what criteria they choose and if they roll me over into another category or don't, it's all the same to me. I am in SASS strictly for fun, an opportunity to get out of town once in a while and see some old friends. If no trophies at all were given out I'd still show up... in fact, I might be more likely to show up because then a lot of these sorts of issues would be moot. But again, not necessarily right, not wrong... that's just me. That's the way I play the game and not everyone does it the same way I do. Interesting to see everyone's take on the way things are done. Still Trouble! Brother King, Was replying to Blastmaster's gold medal post... but you knew that. I have been playing this game, attending, and putting on matches long enough to know how it is... but I also know how it should be Maybe a buckle with an asterisk... Swerved off topic again!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Folks, For the fun of it, go back an read the very first post by the OP. She has a complaint. Make her happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Just think, wouldn't it be terrible to attend a 150 shooter big match and you were the only one in your category and you finished 2nd Overall. And because you were THE ONLY shooter in your category, the powers that be had earlier decided not to recognize your category. OUCH! Even if you have to glue a box of Cracker Jacks on a walnut plaque, I would think it appropriate to recognize and award all SASS recognized categories, even if it only had one shooter. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack, SASS #20451 Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 I have been on both sides of this fence over the years. After seeing some brag because they were the "State Champion" but were the only one in their category I was on the "fold them together" side. Then when seeing some who only wanted to shoot their chosen game be forced out of it I went to the other side. It is true that winning in a category of 1 is a hollow victory, but it is obvious to everyone at the awards ceremony when only one award is given in the category that there was only 1 participant so the victory isn't so much about "winning" as being able to shoot your chosen way. In the end I am for offering all official categories at a Sanctioned match and let shooters sign up for their chosen category. What I am absolutely opposed to is "category shopping". Age group categories were created to "protect" a particular age. If you shoot in an age group category I feel you should shoot in the one you belong in. I realize that under SASS rules you can "go down" but I think it is wrong. Also if I were MD, there would be no changing categories at the last minute unless there was a really good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lefty pete Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 well said Happy Jack,I could not agree more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 I have been on both sides of this fence over the years. After seeing some brag because they were the "State Champion" but were the only one in their category I was on the "fold them together" side. Then when seeing some who only wanted to shoot their chosen game be forced out of it I went to the other side. It is true that winning in a category of 1 is a hollow victory, but it is obvious to everyone at the awards ceremony when only one award is given in the category that there was only 1 participant so the victory isn't so much about "winning" as being able to shoot your chosen way. In the end I am for offering all official categories at a Sanctioned match and let shooters sign up for their chosen category. What I am absolutely opposed to is "category shopping". Age group categories were created to "protect" a particular age. If you shoot in an age group category I feel you should shoot in the one you belong in. I realize that under SASS rules you can "go down" but I think it is wrong. Also if I were MD, there would be no changing categories at the last minute unless there was a really good reason. There are those shameless, no good, knock knee'd, low down raskle 'cherry pickers' that jump 'DOWN' in age catagory and kick the knee of the only other shooter (greenhorn no less) in the class to win the catagory buckle. Now that is rude!!!! Those cherry pickers may feel a bit of shame (doubt it)at the awards but they will brag up and show off the buckle at other matches that no one has a clue that there was only two there. Plan and simple, no changing of catagories at the last minute, unless the orignal cataogy is eliminated. Just my view. Blastmaster PS,,,, WH,,, you could win 1st, 2nd and 3rd place if you were the only one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painted Filly Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 I shoot Ladies Frontier Cartridge and just started Ladies Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter. There are lots of times that I am the only one at an annual shoot. Are you saying that because other girls do not shoot black that I did not win my buckle or work as hard for it? I beg to differ. I work hard to be able to shoot well and I love to have other girls to shoot against but does not always happen. I should not be penalized because of that. I paid my money just like everyone else and it is not my fault that there are not others in my catagory and I am not going to shoot smook in a smokeless catagory becuase then I am at a disadvantage. If they offer the castagory they need to recognize it. If I am the only one then I look to see where I finished over all. It is not that hard to offer trophies in every catagory. We are getting ready to put on our annual at The Colorado Cowboys and we are recognizing every catagory and to 3rd in each even if there is 1 or 2 they will be recognized. We think that is very important. Painted Filly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 I shoot Ladies Frontier Cartridge and just started Ladies Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter. There are lots of times that I am the only one at an annual shoot. Are you saying that because other girls do not shoot black that I did not win my buckle or work as hard for it? I beg to differ. I work hard to be able to shoot well and I love to have other girls to shoot against but does not always happen. I should not be penalized because of that. I paid my money just like everyone else and it is not my fault that there are not others in my catagory and I am not going to shoot smook in a smokeless catagory becuase then I am at a disadvantage. If they offer the castagory they need to recognize it. If I am the only one then I look to see where I finished over all. It is not that hard to offer trophies in every catagory. We are getting ready to put on our annual at The Colorado Cowboys and we are recognizing every catagory and to 3rd in each even if there is 1 or 2 they will be recognized. We think that is very important. Painted Filly You are definitely welcome to your opinions and there are others that have the same opinions. You have to have other shooter(s) in your catagory to compete against to call it a win. Never the less, a shallow win is still a win. Working hard is relative to the competition. No competion, then minimal effort is needed. Minimal to no challenge, then the award is more of a partisipation gift. I agree that if they offer the catagory, then they should pass out the awards. Enjoy your buckles Winning other shooters respect as a shooter (any catagory) and person is more valuable that a material award. That is just me. I learned something here. YMMV, Blastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 You are definitely welcome to your opinions and there are others that have the same opinions. You have to have other shooter(s) in your catagory to compete against to call it a win. Never the less, a shallow win is still a win. Working hard is relative to the competition. No competion, then minimal effort is needed. Minimal to no challenge, then the award is more of a partisipation gift. I agree that if they offer the catagory, then they should pass out the awards. Enjoy your buckles Winning other shooters respect as a shooter (any catagory) and person is more valuable that a material award. That is just me. I learned something here. YMMV, Blastmaster Howdy Blastmaster, You have forgotten one important point, yes there is the category win, but when your the only one in your choosen category and maybe even a small category whats to say your not motivated by overall placement? when I go to a shoot I go to win my catergory but more important I'm more interested in my overall placement, not only am I shootlng against the same category but against everybody else, I would call that motivation? KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twelve mile REB Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 I must be missing something here. Utah had a State match and in the course of doing so gave reconition to shooters that through no fault of their own competed against a small field in catagory. As far as I know SASS has no rule or posistion relative to one person catagories although the interest must have been there to make the catagory in the first place. Granny Anne liked the idea that they would do this and thought that she might like to shoot around nice folks like this. I can tell you that you are unlikely to find a better bunch anywhere than those that organize and put on the Utah State match. I really dont find a posistion for myself that would allow me to kick sand in the face of anyone that put up with three days in the heat, gave their posse all the help they could, made 17 new friends, placed 100 out of 110, shot the best they could and got reconition for their efforts. But thats just me. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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