Loading Table Officer duties

[Old Scatterbrain]

Current stage.

 

38. Competitors arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing

a stage within the same day will be assessed a Stage Disqualification penalty on the

previously completed stage.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Someone mentioned attitude, well for me some of this stuff is about attitude so I can see me saying NO to this individual in some situations. I am not here to make a control freak or show off happy for the day. If the person can and does give a reasonable reason for asking, then sure, I jump right to it for them. We had an unusual four round revolver stage this past week and fokes were doing some extra inspecting at the loading table. After thinking about the scenario later, I did not like the idea of loading four as it could be asking for safety problems but it did call for extra loading table care.

 

 

Bob, There are quite a few things in this life that are worth getting excited over. Unless the LTO is just plain being rude, this ain't one of em.

 

I've gone to UNLOAD and at some place where they will take the rifle to unload for ya at the end of the stage (handy if the stage ends "over here" and the rifle is "over there") and had an ULTO tell me "yer rifle is clear."

I will smile and say "Thanks, but I always feel better when I SEE the follower." and I will cycle the rifle slowly one time while looking for the follower. THEN the rifle is clear to MY satisfaction. He may think I'm being anal, but I'm not holding anybody up, I wasn't rude about it, and if it makes me feel better, why would he care?

 

But, I know this, if I were to go to the next stage and rack the rifle before loading and have a round pop out, I;d be durn mad at ME for not being sure the gun was cleared regardless of what I was told....

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

 

 

 

Yep, and I have seen it happen.

 

The folks who think experienced shooers at a big match don't NEED a LTO will note, I saw it happen at GOA last year, where a fast shooter who obviously knew the ropes showed up at the LT with his pistols not cleared. He'd had rifle troubles on the previous stage, cleared the rifle with a screwdriver, and totally forgot about the pistols. No harm except the erosion of a layer of safety. I;m sure we've ALL seen a shooter pop four rounds out of a pistol and holster it....... IF that error stacks on top forgetting to clear a gun, he's walking around with a loaded gun he THINKS is empty.... We nay say no harm there either. Ask ole Capt M R about how that worked out for him last year at the NorEaster. It is ALWAYS the gun ya think is emty that shoots something ya didn't intend to....

[Dalton Masterson, SASS #51139]

I guess I was always taught to check my guns for clear before they are handled. That was especially pounded in after having a gun go off I thought was empty, and putting a hole in my roof. I spin my cylinders for ME to see. If the LTO is looking, great. If not, and they want to see it again, sure, I will do it again.

 

Every match I have been too here in the middle of the country has a LTO, and most folks will show you their actions to be clear at the LT. I have never seen anyone get in a snit over it.

 

NOW, I have been to a big match where the rest of the posse, all being from the same area, decided that we would not have a LTO, and the next shooter would check the shooter before. This was strange to us, and didnt seem very consistent in the whole "SASS has the same rules across the board" thing. We rolled with it, and had no problems. We were asked why we kept spinning our cylinders and showing them to the next shooter.

 

DM

[Krazy Kajun]

I always spin my cylinders at the loading table before and after I load....before to assure myself and the LTO that my pistols are clear and after to make sure I don't have a high primer. The last two matches I've shot at I had high primers on one stage in each of the matches. High primers are my fault but if I hadn't taken the time to spin the cylinders I wouldn't have known it and ended up with problems at the firing line.

[Shooting Bull]

LTO's are now redundant...

 

 

I kind of felt they always were.

[Shooting Bull]

Yep, and I have seen it happen.

 

The folks who think experienced shooers at a big match don't NEED a LTO will note, I saw it happen at GOA last year, where a fast shooter who obviously knew the ropes showed up at the LT with his pistols not cleared. He'd had rifle troubles on the previous stage, cleared the rifle with a screwdriver, and totally forgot about the pistols. No harm except the erosion of a layer of safety. I;m sure we've ALL seen a shooter pop four rounds out of a pistol and holster it....... IF that error stacks on top forgetting to clear a gun, he's walking around with a loaded gun he THINKS is empty.... We nay say no harm there either. Ask ole Capt M R about how that worked out for him last year at the NorEaster. It is ALWAYS the gun ya think is emty that shoots something ya didn't intend to....

 

 

Where's the UNloading table officer in all these scenarios?

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Current stage.

 

Nope, previous stage. And if it's the first stage of the day, no call.

[J-BAR #18287]

Bob, There are quite a few things in this life that are worth getting excited over. Unless the LTO is just plain being rude, this ain't one of em.

 

 

I'm backin' AJ on this one.

 

Showing clear at the Loading Table doesn't cost any money, and darn little time.

 

If the LTO is smiling and friendly, I can smile and be friendly back at 'em while accommodating a request.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Where's the UNloading table officer in all these scenarios?

The biggest fly in the ointment of an ULT is a jammed rifle. Ya get two or three guys trying to get rounds out of it, and either the shooter with the jammed rifle forgets to clear his pistols, or the next shooter who arrives ends up watching the circus (along with the "helpful ULTO who is probably holding the rifle while somebody is trying to get a screw out of it) and isn't able to pay attention.....

 

The feller who dropped the hammer on a pistol he thought was unloaded did so on the line. He thought he'd drawn the "dry" pistol on s split pistol stage, and after cocking it, thinking it was dry, he pulled the trigger to drop the hammer, and shot the wrist of the stock of his own shotgun which was staged on a table in front of him.

 

But yes, I have seen folks mess up and shoot four instead of five. TO/counters normally catch that, but if they don't, and the ULTO is distracted, ya end up with what amounts to the CAS equivalent of "tolerance stacking" where two parts in a gun or other machine are both at the edges of tolerance and the thing don't work right....

 

EVERY part of the "machine" has to pass inspection to prevent "stacked errors" that cause those "whoda thunk?" post mortem conferences..

 

Better an "anal" table officer than a shot cowboy any day..

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Widder!

 

I'm in the "we don't need a LT officer camp." However, there really should ALWAYS be a ULT officer.

 

Like the recent change that loading an extra round is a "no call" until it isn't cleared on the line (and the other convoluted stuff that has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with the fear of someone taking advantage by loading too many), I believe that as long as we expect the gun to be loaded and handle it as such (LT to ULT) a LT Officer is just a distraction. An overly diligient LTO is worse than a distraction, as we want nothing to interfere with the shooter's mind at the line with a loaded gun.

 

 

Allie Mo

[Charlie Whiskers]

Kinda along the same train of discussion.Our club HAD a policy of not holstering your pistols til you were called to the firing line.Reason being we had more than one shooter load and holster; then realize they forgot to grab shotgun shells and proceed to wander back to the gun cart with loaded holstered guns.I still do leave mine on the table til I'm called up.I figure I'm not gonna need em til then anyway,so why take a chance I had a brain fart and need something I forgot.But...we had enough shooters complain and say that was a stupid rule,so the rule was dropped.Since then we've had more than one DQ....but oh well...I guess they weren't as smart as they thought.

[Grizzly Dave]

I think it's alot in what you are used to. Round here, LTOs are used, elsewhere obviously not.

 

I don't work the LT much, there are other things I prefer, but while working it I have helped shooters avoid

- overloading rifle

- underloading rifle

- hammer not down on rifle

- pistol hammer down on live round

- pistols not loaded

- walking away with loaded holstered pistols

- only 4 in pistols

- no shotgun shells on belt

 

Those are just the things I specifically remember.

 

That said, I have shot at clubs where there was no LTO, we checked each other, no problem.

[Blackwater 53393]

I have seen too many dropped loaded guns to discount the need for a loading table officer. The "redundancy" gives me an added feeling of security. I'll give you an example. Shooter at an unattended table loads five in each pistol, checks and holsters both. Unfortunately, the shooter mistakenly left the hammer of one pistol down on a live round. The pistol is a replica or original single action revolver without a transfer bar. If that pistol is dropped and lands on the hammer, there is a danger of an accidental discharge.

 

You say that won't happen, but how many times have you seen a shooter draw a pistol and cock it, pull the trigger and it not fire, then proceed to fire five consecutive rounds without a nonfire? I know that I HAVE, and more than once!

 

The likelyhood of this happening is diminished exponentially when TWO people, (LTO and shooter) both examine the gun and agree that the hammer is down on the empty chamber. These "little" extra steps are what have helped to keep shooters safe and should not only be encouraged, but required.

 

As to the duties of a LTO, so long as he, (or she) doesn't take it upon themselves to interprate the rules in a manner other than what is written, any extra reasonable safety request should be viewed as being helpful and concerned with YOUR safety.

 

There are other examples that I could give, but this one should suffice.

[Dubious Don #56333]

"By golly if we'da had a Loading Table Officer, so-and-so wouldn'ta got him a DQ for having empties in his gun from the last stage." How would an LTO have ANYTHING to do with this? (perhaps the UN-loading table person?)

 

So-and-so shot his gun at the table cuz he pulled the trigger onna loaded gun. (That it was pointed at his own shotgun kinda served him right!) What kind of idjit pulls the trigger on a gun HE AINT APPARENTLY CHECKED?!? (of course the Loading Table Officer discussion don't really fit this here incident either)

 

So-and-so wandered away from the loading table with his loaded pistols on because he needed.....from his cart and if there'd been an LTO that would have saved him from that dastardly penalty for a brainfade. Don't that beat all. Let's have us an LTO so we can blame HIM TOO when the shooter does something he ain't saupposed to. Now that I think of it, whenever I do something atupid, it sure feels better when there's somebody else TO SHARE THE BLAME so maybe this LTO idea ain't so bad after all.....

[Keystone, SASS # 47578]

Good Evening,

 

How you are taught to do something is understood by a person to be the normal way. I have been shooting CAS since 2002 and have only attended one (1) match that didn't use LTO's. Yes, I have shot in several different clubs at local, state and regional matches. I've seldom encountered a LTO who was overbearing. My only beef is when an LTO touches my firearms/ammo or incesantly talks which is very distracting. Just because it is not in the SASS rules doesn't mean it cannot be required. Some ranges issue a MDQ for a round over the berm & some don't. Some clubs require the use of loading blocks or strips which I never use but would if asked. So, if the norm at a range is to show that all firearms are empty prior to beginning the loading process, what's the big deal?

 

Hasta Luego ,Keystone

[Madd Mike #8595]

I have seen too many dropped loaded guns to discount the need for a loading table officer.

 

 

lol---LOL

do you require that yer

Loading table officer wear a catchers' mit?.?.?

[Seldom Seen #16162]

Trueisms:

 

Someone who touches my guns without my permission will be touched back and not very nicely.

 

Spinning the cylinder is the mark of a greenhorn and can be unsafe with some type of actions.

 

Since many shooters don't understand the "load one, skip one, load four" procedure for Colts and clones I simply explain what I am doing to the LTO as I load my guns. It gives me to edujate the LTO without him even going back to school.

 

If CCW holders and LEO's followed SASS rules shootouts sure would take a lot longer.

[Griff]

Good Evening,

How you are taught to do something is understood by a person to be the normal way. I have been shooting CAS since 2002 and have only attended one (1) match that didn't use LTO's. Yes, I have shot in several different clubs at local, state and regional matches. I've seldom encountered a LTO who was overbearing. My only beef is when an LTO touches my firearms/ammo or incesantly talks which is very distracting. Just because it is not in the SASS rules doesn't mean it cannot be required. Some ranges issue a MDQ for a round over the berm & some don't. Some clubs require the use of loading blocks or strips which I never use but would if asked. So, if the norm at a range is to show that all firearms are empty prior to beginning the loading process, what's the big deal?

Hasta Luego ,Keystone

Keystone,

 

It ain't so much that they're there. That's not at issue. It's an unrealistic or even questionably valid requirement. I've had LTOs ask me to spin my cylinder after loading just so they could then see where the unloaded chamber was. I shoot Colts, that load one, skip one, load four, pull the hammer to full cock and pull the trigger. Once done, my unloaded chamber WILL be under the hammer... proof positive, I DID NOT have an AD at the loading table. To then ask me to spin the cylinder and re-align the empty chamber is doubling my chances for an AD... or is that quadrupling? Had one LTO ask me to do that on my C&B Colts... where even if the hammer is down you can plainly see there is no cap between nipple and hammer. Sometimes, on Colts and clones, if you don't pull the hammer all the way back but try to lower it from halfcock, and you release the trigger before the hammer is fully down, it'll only go to the safety notch. Which'll then get you a SDQ on the line. And if it doesn't get caught and you get to the line and draw and try to cock it, the dern thing might just lock up, as they so often will.

 

If you're going to be an LTO or a UTLO, at least have the courtesy to be knowledgeable about the various guns commonly seen.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Good Evening,

 

How you are taught to do something is understood by a person to be the normal way. I have been shooting CAS since 2002 and have only attended one (1) match that didn't use LTO's. Yes, I have shot in several different clubs at local, state and regional matches. I've seldom encountered a LTO who was overbearing. My only beef is when an LTO touches my firearms/ammo or incesantly talks which is very distracting. Just because it is not in the SASS rules doesn't mean it cannot be required. Some ranges issue a MDQ for a round over the berm & some don't. Some clubs require the use of loading blocks or strips which I never use but would if asked. So, if the norm at a range is to show that all firearms are empty prior to beginning the loading process, what's the big deal?

 

Hasta Luego ,Keystone

 

Been shootin' CAS since 96 and never seen a match WITH a designated LTO.

 

It's a regional thing.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Loading table officers are OK if you have enough posse members to cover the job. The most important part of that job is making sure that the hammer is down on an empty, which can easily be done by the shooter behind you or if you are the last shooter, in front of you.

 

I don't start getting concerned unless the shooter on the line pulls his pistols and gets a click and then five bangs or four bangs and then a click followed by another bang. It's time that shooter is checked more carefully at the loading table!

 

It's a rare happening that the shooter picks up his rifle to engage the targets and operates the lever only to have the first round fly out, but it does happen.

 

It also helps to make sure that the hammer is down on his rifle BEFORE he heads off to the firing line.

 

On the over zealous note - I once had a shooter behind me get all upset for raising the muzzle of my Henry Big Boy so I could open the loading port. I laid the rifle back on the table and asked him to demonstrate how he would do it. He looked at it and grumbled something about "go ahead and do it your way".

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

When I go to the LT, I rack my rifle load it and set it aside. I draw my first pistol, open the gate, spin the cylinder, load it, and lay it down where anyone(including a LT officer) can look at it if they choose while I'm loading the second pistol which is loaded in the same manner and placed next to the first one so that right gun and left gun are differentiated. I won't say anything if the LTO lifts them but I stay to make sure left and right don't get changed(left has a one ounce lighter trigger). I then place them with the rifle leaving room for the next person and go to my gun cart to dispose of ammo box and retrieve my shotgun. I rack my shotgun at the LT place it and holster the pistols. I don't require the LTO to count my rounds but they may if they wish. It is up to them to keep up, not for me to slow down. I observe whichever range rules are in place and will inquire before I load at a new range. I figure it is only courteous. Besides, in a few moments they'll be rememberin' my shootin' and not my loadin'! I rack guns, spin cylinders slowly, and show follower at ULT. When visiting a friends house, I remove shoes if asked and don't smoke if requested. I will take the last cookie and will eat the peanuts in the bowl unless the chocolate has been sucked off. Don't see a problem with any of these.

 

Spin or not to spin. Done done it and movin' on!

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

I should mention, I consciously listen for a shooter that gets only one "click" and five "bangs". I will make the call.

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

...whether as a timer, spotter, or spectater.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Keystone,

 

It ain't so much that they're there. That's not at issue. It's an unrealistic or even questionably valid requirement. I've had LTOs ask me to spin my cylinder after loading just so they could then see where the unloaded chamber was. I shoot Colts, that load one, skip one, load four, pull the hammer to full cock and pull the trigger. Once done, my unloaded chamber WILL be under the hammer... proof positive, I DID NOT have an AD at the loading table. To then ask me to spin the cylinder and re-align the empty chamber is doubling my chances for an AD... or is that quadrupling? Had one LTO ask me to do that on my C&B Colts... where even if the hammer is down you can plainly see there is no cap between nipple and hammer. Sometimes, on Colts and clones, if you don't pull the hammer all the way back but try to lower it from halfcock, and you release the trigger before the hammer is fully down, it'll only go to the safety notch. Which'll then get you a SDQ on the line. And if it doesn't get caught and you get to the line and draw and try to cock it, the dern thing might just lock up, as they so often will.

 

If you're going to be an LTO or a UTLO, at least have the courtesy to be knowledgeable about the various guns commonly seen.

 

Griff,

Thanks for providing an excellent example of the fallacy "you can never be to safe."

In the case you site, "double checking" is making things more dangerous, not safer.

It takes some good analysis to actually maintain safety.

 

A good LTO can be helpful. A careless or uniformed one can make things worse.

[WymoreWrangler SASS 46187L]

I just went back and read the Loading Table/Unloading Table duties, pages 9-10 in the RO1 Handbook, under SASS rules will someone please show me where not having a LTO is optional. And if it's optional shouldn't the Wild Bunch/TG correct the rule book... And let's not start the big brother rant, we don't get to pick and choose what rules we follow when we play the game...

[Lou Graham, # 26112]

I shoot in places with no LTO and with what some would call anal LTO process. At the end of the day, it's attitude and knowlege. I rarely work the table, but do recall the first C&B I came across. I just confessed ignorance and asked the shooter to explain what I was looking at. He was happy to and very helpful.

I like another set of eyes and will ask the shooter loading next to me to check my pistols or verify a short count on rifle.I have (like most) a routine at the loading table, always loading in specific order, etc. If a request to show clear or some such is enough to get me out of my "zone" I might be just a little too keyed up.

[Madd Mike #8595]

goodness-gracious folks

 

iffen ya want a LTO at yer shoots

then have em

 

Iffen ya dont think ya need LTO at yer shoots

like we do

in these parts

thats fine t0000000

 

we dont need to change the rules or range officer materials........

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Although I like all the post, please allow me to say that my OP wasn't intended to promote any 'supportive or critical' thoughts of the LTO as a necessary/unnecessary need but rather the responsibilities of the LTO as written in the RO manual(s).

 

And this trully was a general discussion that came up between me and my sidekick, Slater, as we traveled back from a match.

 

Most always, at the LT, I pull my pistols and spin the cylinder, for my viewing before I start to load em up.

I don't spin them for someone else to view.

 

But, when you start loading a pistol and have 1 round in the cylinder and the LTO ask you to stop because you didn't spin the cylinder for him/her to verify it was empty, is this type 'request' of the LTO covered under LTO guidelines?

 

It would appear not to be so, based on the replies.

 

Thanks Pards

 

 

..........Widder

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

I just went back and read the Loading Table/Unloading Table duties, pages 9-10 in the RO1 Handbook, under SASS rules will someone please show me where not having a LTO is optional. And if it's optional shouldn't the Wild Bunch/TG correct the rule book... And let's not start the big brother rant, we don't get to pick and choose what rules we follow when we play the game...

We do have a LTO, if there are 12 on our posse we have 12 LTO, the shooter beside you is more than qualified. Just not one that sits on a stool to ask me to spin my cylinder and rack my rifle when I just got done doing that exact thing at the designated place, THE UNLOADING TABLE!!

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

I just went back and read the Loading Table/Unloading Table duties, pages 9-10 in the RO1 Handbook, under SASS rules will someone please show me where not having a LTO is optional. And if it's optional shouldn't the Wild Bunch/TG correct the rule book... And let's not start the big brother rant, we don't get to pick and choose what rules we follow when we play the game...

The ROI Handbook explains what the duties of the loading table officer are. It does not say that a loading table officer must be used. At the clubs that I shoot at, we are all loading table officers as we stand in line. We look out for each other. "You only loaded 9 in your rifle, right?" "Did you check your shotgun belt -- you only have two shells?" We visibly check the shooter's pistols in front of us to see there is not a round under the hammer.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

I shoot in places with no LTO and with what some would call anal LTO process. At the end of the day, it's attitude and knowlege. I rarely work the table, but do recall the first C&B I came across. I just confessed ignorance and asked the shooter to explain what I was looking at. He was happy to and very helpful.

I like another set of eyes and will ask the shooter loading next to me to check my pistols or verify a short count on rifle.I have (like most) a routine at the loading table, always loading in specific order, etc. If a request to show clear or some such is enough to get me out of my "zone" I might be just a little too keyed up.

 

 

EGGZACKLY Miz Lou. First time I eyeballed a conversion cylinder was working the LT. I says to the shooter "Ok, splain to me how we know what we got here." He did, and we were fine. ATTITUDE.....

[Rio Brazos Kid]

All I can add to this is that I'm with the NO-LTO crowd. Another shooter can check that your rifle is hammer down and check that the hammers are down on empty chambers in your pistols.

 

Everybody should use loading blocks actually, then there would be no question of how many rounds that were loaded in any gun and does prevent mistakes in the loading counts. It only makes sense to do so.

 

I can take'm or leave'm, whichever, and have never had a LTO or ULTO ever get horsey or rude.

 

I have a bigger problem with mouthy/horsey TO's, but that's another subject. Again, most all of them are very cordial.

 

RBK

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

... Everybody should use loading blocks actually,...

Sorry Kid,

 

I'm in the no loading blocks camp too. I could run the timer, count, pick up brass, man the ULT...instead of moving ammo from one place (neatly stacked in rows of five) to another. To those of you who don't like us who take our ammo boxes to the LT, I have a nice little routine, which really worked well when I could not carry two guns at a time. I carry my rifle and ammo box (it has 20 rifle and 20 pistol in it) to the LT. I carry my ammo box back to the cart and carry my SG to the LT. If there is a LTO, he can just as easily see what I did by looking at what is left in the box as he can by looking at your loading strip.

 

I'm "fine with" you doing it your way. Just allow me to do it my way.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[The Shoer 27979]

All I can add to this is that I'm with the NO-LTO crowd. Another shooter can check that your rifle is hammer down and check that the hammers are down on empty chambers in your pistols.

 

Everybody should use loading blocks actually, then there would be no question of how many rounds that were loaded in any gun and does prevent mistakes in the loading counts. It only makes sense to do so.

 

I can take'm or leave'm, whichever, and have never had a LTO or ULTO ever get horsey or rude.

 

I have a bigger problem with mouthy/horsey TO's, but that's another subject. Again, most all of them are very cordial.

 

RBK

 

 

I agree with Miss Allie, I know how to count and I have my system and believe it or not it works. I also don't like anyone looking over my shoulder checking what I am doing so I am for NO LTO.