Wild Bunch Poll ...

[John Boy]

http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=8735.0

[Jack Houston # 35508]

can't register there...wont take either Yahoo or Hotmail e-mail addresses!

[Utah Bob #35998]

Seems to me we've had sufficient threads here about this and the overwhelming consensus was that most folks preferred a separation.

[John Boy]

Jack, send Hedley the problem ... http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=5816

[Bad Hand]

can't register there...wont take either Yahoo or Hotmail e-mail addresses!

I registered there with a Yahoo email address.

[Guest diablo slim shootist]

the open range-does not like my yahoo e-mail either

My vote will always be "separate the two shooting disciplines.

[SOUTH-PACIFIC,SASS #59402]

can't figure out how to do this register thing. but i fell the two (cass&wbss) should be seperate

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

The two clubs I frequent allow pards to shoot it at the regular match. Yesterday we had two shooters and that leaves little doubt that if it were not for allowing them to shoot with us, they could not have done it as a match. I can say that you would really have to be inquisitive sort to notice or to feel harassed by them. Since we had them outnumbered at least twenty to one, I do not think they were looking for trouble.

[Madd Mike #8595]

Seems to me we've had sufficient threads here about this and the overwhelming consensus was that most folks preferred a separation.

 

as does sASS headquarters

[Tom Bullweed]

I shot IPSC seriously for six years with a lot of training to obtain B-class in 1911, production and revolver divisions. I viewed IPSC as pratical practice that could be used by defensive weapons practice and to teach me reasonable defensive tactics. Normal field stage: one pistol, thirty shots, four 10-round mags, reasonable props, shot-em-as-you-see-em, make decisions on the fly.

I have enjoyed CAS for five years now and have a completely different attitude, mostly fun with NO real-life application that will save lives during a forced entry or a gun-weilding nut-job threatening me or my family.

WB treats the perfect tactical weapon as a fun-gun. I tried WB but it negatively affected my training and abilities.

When I hear someone say WB it is my queue to visit the vendors or get something to eat. I say 'Have at it' for those who enjoy it, but it teaches some very lousy weapons practices like shooting a gun empty, five rounds a pistol that will hold many more and starting with an empty chamber. My 1911 is for more serious work.

I do not think that SASS is stornger for having WB, but that is just my $.02 worth, which ain't much these days.

[Griff]

I shot IPSC seriously for six years with a lot of training to obtain B-class in 1911, production and revolver divisions. I viewed IPSC as pratical practice that could be used by defensive weapons practice and to teach me reasonable defensive tactics. Normal field stage: one pistol, thirty shots, four 10-round mags, reasonable props, shot-em-as-you-see-em, make decisions on the fly.

I have enjoyed CAS for five years now and have a completely different attitude, mostly fun with NO real-life application that will save lives during a forced entry or a gun-weilding nut-job threatening me or my family.

WB treats the perfect tactical weapon as a fun-gun. I tried WB but it negatively affected my training and abilities.

When I hear someone say WB it is my queue to visit the vendors or get something to eat. I say 'Have at it' for those who enjoy it, but it teaches some very lousy weapons practices like shooting a gun empty, five rounds a pistol that will hold many more and starting with an empty chamber. My 1911 is for more serious work.

I do not think that SASS is stornger for having WB, but that is just my $.02 worth, which ain't much these days.

If WB had come along 10 years ago when I was still an active LEO, I would have declined, on much the same principle as you state above. The long run will determine if SASS is better off with or without WB. But, like you, I'm sorta tired of them constantly harpin' that "WB ain't CAS with a 1911" when they still only allow 5 rounds per mag. Until they rectify that... they're singin off-key. I'll still play, as next the SAA, the 1911 is my favorite gun... and since I love loverguns, I'll put up with having to shoot a '97 shotgun.

 

But, John Boy, I went and voted.

[Bull Skinner]

I'm with ya Tom B.

 

I carried one in Vietnam. They are not recreational equipment, they are lethal hardware for defense. I do not own one and have no desire to as they bring up some real bad memories for me.

[Madd Mike #8595]

If WB had come along 10 years ago when I was still an active LEO, I would have declined, on much the same principle as you state above. The long run will determine if SASS is better off with or without WB. But, like you, I'm sorta tired of them constantly harpin' that "WB ain't CAS with a 1911"

when they still only allow 5 rounds per mag. Until they rectify that... they're singin off-key. I'll still play, as next the SAA, the 1911 is my favorite gun... and since I love loverguns, I'll put up with having to shoot a '97 shotgun.

 

But, John Boy, I went and voted.

 

the rules are different in Wild Bunch

compared to cowboy action shooting

 

Wild Bunch matches. encourage KD targets, and longer target distance, even hostage targes and such

 

that is why I say it is diffent

yet it falls under the same "sASS parent" umbrella

 

geeeeeeese

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

the rules are different in Wild Bunch

compared to cowboy action shooting

 

Wild Bunch matches. encourage KD targets, and longer target distance, even hostage targes and such

 

that is why I say it is diffent

yet it falls under the same "sASS parent" umbrella

 

geeeeeeese

 

and thats why it has no business mixed into a sass match.

i work hard to stay current on SASS rules and it AINT SASS.

on a 20 person posse 6 with new shooters today, i have one wild bunch ambassador stoking his shotgun on loading table i dont like it. not to mention that he finished 7/119 with a preloaded SG. he didnt beat me but that dont make it ok.

i wish those guys the best but not in my lap.

CC

[Madd Mike #8595]

and thats why it has no business mixed into a sass match.

i work hard to stay current on SASS rules and it AINT SASS.

on a 20 person posse 6 with new shooters today, i have one wild bunch ambassador stoking his shotgun on loading table i dont like it. not to mention that he finished 7/119 with a preloaded SG. he didnt beat me but that dont make it ok.

i wish those guys the best but not in my lap.

CC

 

that is eggzactly why

 

SASS wants cAS and wB to be done seperatly

 

why cant folks (sass clubs) help SASS to acheve that goal........

 

I like em both

I like em both done seperatly as well

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

that is eggzactly why

 

SASS wants cAS and wB to be done seperatly

 

why cant folks (sass clubs) help SASS to acheve that goal........

 

I like em both

I like em both done seperatly as well

 

uh, ok, eggzactly how what would you like me to do to help them play their game somewhere else?

[Cascade Charlie, SASS # 48668L]

uh, ok, eggzactly how what would you like me to do to help them play their game somewhere else?

 

As Okie would put it..."Get that nuclear wedgie out of your butt and think about it."

 

It's simple...You shoot CAS on Saturdays and let them shoot WB on Sundays. Or a completely different weekend.

 

Just separate the two shooting disciplines.

 

Charlie

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

As Okie would put it..."Get that nuclear wedgie out of your butt and think about it."

 

It's simple...You shoot CAS on Saturdays and let them shoot WB on Sundays. Or a completely different weekend.

 

Just separate the two shooting disciplines.

 

Charlie

excuse me? thats just rude. i DO shoot every sat. i dont stop them from shooting on sundays. i have six ranges in a 25 mile radius and another 12 at least within 100 miles of me. what are you asking me to do? (other than pulling a nuclear wedgie out of my butt?) would you like me to buy them reactive targets and make a deal with the range owners for them???????

i like HJ and PC and appreciate their desire and efforts to make this work. whats it have to do with ME???

i really dont like how rude some people can be on the other side of a keyboard.

CC

[Four Bucks #36386 Life]

We shoot WB here but we shoot it on a different day as a separate match. If folks showed up on CAS day with WB equipment, we'd just let them know that there wasn't a category for them today but WB will be shot on........ We use different (usually smaller and farther away) targets for WB and the scenarios are quite different.

 

I enjoy shooting WB but I keep it totally separate from my cowboy shooting. As far as teaching bad habits...I look at it as just another game and play that game on that day. I've had enough (I hope) self-defense training to keep that separate too and pray that if ever faced with that situation, I would react as trained.

 

Just my views. My vote is to definitely shoot them as different matches.

 

Four Bucks

[Stoney Creek]

In some areas of the SASS world there are not enough Wild Bunch shooters to make a small posse let alone a match.

 

If Wild Bunch shooting is going to grow so that it can be a seperate match how would you suggest reaching that goal?

 

Running seperate matches for six or seven shooters?

 

Most clubs in this area are multi-discipline with mostly fully booked weekends.

 

Even if a shooting day was available the setting up of a Wild Bunch match still falls to the four or five people who do all the work. So double the work for six or seven shooters? The same four or five shooters run 12 months of the year indoors and out at two clubs.

 

For now we will try to grow the Wild Bunch game by combining it with CAS.

 

The results are seperated so everyone knows who is shooting what.

 

IJAFG

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

I DO NOT like the two mixed in the same match.

There are not enough people familiar with the WB rules to RO the WB shooters on their posse, a lot of the WB shooters are not even familiar with the rules or their 1911. Some folks decide to shoot it on whim every so often, and the 1911 is a little more complicated to operate than a wheelgun for folks that rarely shoot one.

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

Since I doubt that we could put on a separate match for one to three players a month I got the solution. Since our match is on the same day as the IPSC version, we use the first five bays and they use the last five, we can just tell them that they are not welcome and send them to the other group. Truth is these are not dedicated monthly WB shooters but old time SASSers who enjoy trying something different on occasion. They are not supposed to be scored with or competing against the approved categories so it doesnt matter that you beat his perceived advantage , or not??? I find it humorous that some who would support shorts and what may, under the guise of summer heat, would get so upset about WB not being cowboy and I will not even go near commenting on some of the supposed 'cowboy' guns and calibers we use now.

 

SASS is no longer what it once was, we used to support these type venues as side matches held after the regular match. That type of enthusiasm for the sport has died and in most places shooters just want to be done by lunch time and get away from the range. Most of those side match venues are gone completely and no longer show up, even at most state level matches. If things like WB, Long range and the few others that are left are not nurtured they will disappear like many of the other side matches of old. OK, its not popular, why, give the problem you have actually seen it cause at your local monthly match? Put it on trial for a spell and then give her a vote, allow it or kill it completely, and it just might be that cut and dry at many locations.

[Madd Mike #8595]

uh, ok, eggzactly how what would you like me to do to help them play their game somewhere else?

 

no,

SASS wants wild bunch shooting to become seperate, like mounted shooting is

ya do it on different days

you put on a cas shoot

and ya put on a wild bunch shoot

that is what sASS wants in the long run,

......................................as wild bunch grows in numbers to sustain such a shoot.............

 

mixing wild bunch with cowboy action shooting::::: at first was needed to introduce the new venue

now it is time to start seperating the two different shoots, as the numbers grow

that is all I am saying

maybe, with smaller numbers, then all the wild bunch guys need to hang out on the same posse at a cas shoot??????

the rules, are different dont cha know

 

just sharing what I learned at the convention wild bunch classes and attending the wild bunch ro class at EOT

 

the time frame and how ya do it may / will be different for each and every SASS club

carry on

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

I shot IPSC seriously for six years with a lot of training to obtain B-class in 1911, production and revolver divisions. I viewed IPSC as pratical practice that could be used by defensive weapons practice and to teach me reasonable defensive tactics. Normal field stage: one pistol, thirty shots, four 10-round mags, reasonable props, shot-em-as-you-see-em, make decisions on the fly.

I have enjoyed CAS for five years now and have a completely different attitude, mostly fun with NO real-life application that will save lives during a forced entry or a gun-weilding nut-job threatening me or my family.

WB treats the perfect tactical weapon as a fun-gun. I tried WB but it negatively affected my training and abilities.

When I hear someone say WB it is my queue to visit the vendors or get something to eat. I say 'Have at it' for those who enjoy it, but it teaches some very lousy weapons practices like shooting a gun empty, five rounds a pistol that will hold many more and starting with an empty chamber. My 1911 is for more serious work.

I do not think that SASS is stornger for having WB, but that is just my $.02 worth, which ain't much these days.

 

I'm with ya Tom B.

 

I carried one in Vietnam. They are not recreational equipment, they are lethal hardware for defense. I do not own one and have no desire to as they bring up some real bad memories for me.

 

 

 

 

 

Single actions revolvers just 'fun' guns and the 1911 not a 'fun' gun - what???

 

BOTH can be used in defensive lethal force situations and both can be used recreationally for 'fun'

 

Heck, just about all guns are 'fun' to shoot.

 

 

GG ~

EDITED: added posts that I was reponding too

[Bodine]

Wow, I can't follow this thread very well with all the acronyms. (new guy) Seems to me though the entire sentiment of "seperate but equal" played out early in the history of our nation. I'm more of a "united we stand, divided we fall", "if we don't hang together we shall surely hang seperately" person, that should ring a bell to those who remember history.

 

Honestly folks, and take this from a guy who has seen the destruction this divisionary crap has created in two other venues (pre 1840 and Civil War), if this is the direction this hobby is taking, I am already done here. I don't want nothing to do with it if it's just an echo of the where I just came from. This nation is already so divided that it amazes me we haven't started killing each other like 1850-1865 all over again.

 

I hope level heads will work something out and provide a place and time for everyone, but today don't look too bright for the future. Pretty sad.

 

Just an new guy observation.

 

Bodine

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Wow, I can't follow this thread very well with all the acronyms. (new guy) Seems to me though the entire sentiment of "seperate but equal" played out early in the history of our nation. I'm more of a "united we stand, divided we fall", "if we don't hang together we shall surely hang seperately" person, that should ring a bell to those who remember history.

 

Honestly folks, and take this from a guy who has seen the destruction this divisionary crap has created in two other venues (pre 1840 and Civil War), if this is the direction this hobby is taking, I am already done here. I don't want nothing to do with it if it's just an echo of the where I just came from. This nation is already so divided that it amazes me we haven't started killing each other like 1850-1865 all over again.

 

I hope level heads will work something out and provide a place and time for everyone, but today don't look too bright for the future. Pretty sad.

 

Just an new guy observation.

 

Bodine

 

Folks can't discuss and debate? I haven't heard of any 'division' over the issue in our sport..

 

GG ~

[Bad Hand]

Havin g only shot 1 match that integerated WB shooters and cowboy shooters, I didn't care for it. One thing I questioned was why is it safe for a WB shooter to stoke his '97 at the loading table, but not safe for me, a "cowboy" shooter to do so?

[Bodine]

Sure Pard, I never said nuthin about nobdy can't do that, but I have to tell ya, you just sent the very deja-vous chill down my spine I was hoping to avoid. This whole discussion is about division. Two pretty polarized factions have developed.

 

Been there, done that, got the scars.

 

Bodine

[Cascade Charlie, SASS # 48668L]

Havin g only shot 1 match that integerated WB shooters and cowboy shooters, I didn't care for it. One thing I questioned was why is it safe for a WB shooter to stoke his '97 at the loading table, but not safe for me, a "cowboy" shooter to do so?

 

It's not a "safety" question. It's a timing advantage. The rules state that a '97 may be stoked on the clock if the stage writer allows it.

The "Top Guns" have tried it and find that there is no real advantage to stoking on the clock...it's actually a time penalty but some people just like to do it because it's fun.

 

Charlie

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Sure Pard, I never said nuthin about nobdy can't do that, but I have to tell ya, you just sent the very deja-vous chill down my spine I was hoping to avoid. This whole discussion is about division. Two pretty polarized factions have developed.

 

Been there, done that, got the scars.

 

Bodine

 

Well...this subject come up every so often with the same stuff being said over-and-over again and SASS is still as strong as ever...so try not to fret about any' division' like this tearing SASS up anytime soon here...

 

 

 

GG ~

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

I think Nellie Blue said it best. I want WB and CAS to be separate so I can shoot both.

 

If there is insufficient interest in an area, I can see it as an experimental category. We've had muzzle loaders and single-shot rifle users shoot a stage differently from others, we call them Plainsmen. Separate instructions are provided for them. Usually, they shoot half as many rifle rounds.

 

I can see stoking the SG in a SASS match in a separate category. One could drop the rifle and shoot the rifle targets with the 1911. We shot the rifle targets with the 1911 at the last Gold Country Wild Bunch match and were told it was a WB stage from EOT.

 

I was thrilled to only miss three of the rifle targets. It seems I am much better at aiming the 1911 than a SAA and I have a traditional-category-legal 1911.

 

I would only condone mixing them with a regular posse until you have enough 1911 users for a separate posse. Then, it would be better to have a stand-alone match. If that is not possible at a range in your area, then the WB shooters should be on a separate posse to eliminate confusion.

 

The reason I'm saying this is that I think the sport will grow once folks see how much fun the WB shooters have. After my first few attempts with a 1911, I wasn't sure I could shoot WB. However, I am a bit stubborn (when someone tells me I can't - Hubby) and really wanted to try. So, I stuck it out for 1000 rounds and many magazine changes. I may not be good enough at it to get any awards; but I am sufficiently proficient to enjoy it, much like CAS.

 

Grow Wild Bunch Grow!

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

"I viewed IPSC as pratical practice that could be used by defensive weapons practice and to teach me reasonable defensive tactics.""

 

While IPSC/USPSA matches allow you to practice your defensive weapon gunhandling skills,accuracy and speed shooting, I don't see how it teaches "reasonalble defensive tactics". Even IDPA, more defensive based than IPSC, is a game and not tactical training. They're both fun but IPSC in particular doesn't incorporate "defensive tactics". Smokin Gator

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Sure Pard, I never said nuthin about nobdy can't do that, but I have to tell ya, you just sent the very deja-vous chill down my spine I was hoping to avoid. This whole discussion is about division. Two pretty polarized factions have developed.

 

Been there, done that, got the scars.

 

Bodine

Howdy Bodine,

 

Please don't take it that way. Mounted shooting hasn't become a polarized faction. So, neither should WB be one.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Howdy again!

 

Two more things.

 

My first comment is about home defence. I still prefer to stoke a SG at the "scary moment." Always did and that was pre-WB. Hubby has some DA revolvers, loaded with 5, planted around too. Obviously, this has nothing to do with CAS or WB.

 

One reason I would condone allowing WB at a CAS match has to do with local range availibility. Until we built our Cowboy Town, there was only one club with a dedicated cowboy range. The other ranges were shared with one of the following groups: other shooting sports (IDPA, IPSC...), police, sheriff, corrections... There was only one day a month available to us.

 

Also, as I posted, we (The Outlaws) allow alternate gun categories (Plainsmen) already.

 

It isn't ideal; but, it is a way to draw new shooters until sufficent shooters or an available venue is obtained.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Bad Hand]

It's not a "safety" question. It's a timing advantage. The rules state that a '97 may be stoked on the clock if the stage writer allows it.

The "Top Guns" have tried it and find that there is no real advantage to stoking on the clock...it's actually a time penalty but some people just like to do it because it's fun.

 

Charlie

You didn't understand my post, the WB shooters are allowed to stoke their '97s at the loading table and stage them that way. "Cowboy" shooters were not allowed to load at the LT but must stage their '97s empty. No where did I mention stoking on the clock.