Buckshot Frank Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I just bought an old '97 (made in 1904). I've been using a Stoeger since starting in CAS, and like it just fine. I bought the '97 as a back-up and to possibly use for Wild Bunch (and because I just wanted it ). After playing around with the '97, I was thinking that I might use it in a match. I have no problem holding four 12 gauge shells in my hand at one time, so in theory, I should be able to run the '97 pretty fast. I had my wife time me getting four shots off (starting with gun on table with action open and hands on hat) with the '97 vs. with my double to see which I should use. I did four runs and averaged the best three runs with each. I'm a bit disappointed with the results. I averaged about 8 seconds with the double and 12 seconds with the '97. I know that I'm not fast (I'm a middle of the pack shooter) and that I need a lot more practice with the '97, but I expected the results to be closer. The time wasted seemed to be getting the first shot off with the '97 (about 4 seconds). I waste a lot of time getting the four shells in my hand (shotgun belt holds shells in pairs). I'm sure that a different shotgun belt that facilitates drawing four would help. I guess that my question is: Is it worth the effort (new shotgun belt and a lot of practice) to get faster with the '97, or am I better off just sticking with the double. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy's creek Dan, SASS 73697 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I just bought an old '97 (made in 1904). I've been using a Stoeger since starting in CAS, and like it just fine. I bought the '97 as a back-up and to possibly use for Wild Bunch (and because I just wanted it ). After playing around with the '97, I was thinking that I might use it in a match. I have no problem holding four 12 gauge shells in my hand at one time, so in theory, I should be able to run the '97 pretty fast. I had my wife time me getting four shots off (starting with gun on table with action open and hands on hat) with the '97 vs. with my double to see which I should use. I did four runs and averaged the best three runs with each. I'm a bit disappointed with the results. I averaged about 8 seconds with the double and 12 seconds with the '97. I know that I'm not fast (I'm a middle of the pack shooter) and that I need a lot more practice with the '97, but I expected the results to be closer. The time wasted seemed to be getting the first shot off with the '97 (about 4 seconds). I waste a lot of time getting the four shells in my hand (shotgun belt holds shells in pairs). I'm sure that a different shotgun belt that facilitates drawing four would help. I guess that my question is: Is it worth the effort (new shotgun belt and a lot of practice) to get faster with the '97, or am I better off just sticking with the double. Frank how many years have you used your SXS? Give the 97 as much time as you did your SXS and then decide. + you might try pulling 2 at a time untill you get used to it. just my 2 cents, have fun RCD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I'm not a 97 fan at all, but RCD makes alot of sense. The only reason I can see myself getting a 97 would be for wild bunch, but I don't see that happening any time soon as I'd need a 1911 and big bore lever gun as well. FWIW, I have seen a bunch of 97 shooters going to a SxS lately, I don't know that I've seen even one going the other way. Have fun with whatever you do. Grizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Solo Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Wow, I would have been excited to be within 4 seconds of my practiced SxS time with a brand new style gun. That is impressive. With some practice you should be able to knock that 97 time down about 4-4.5 seconds. Longhunter has some good video tips at the SASS members site. Evil Roy has a whole video that teaches the best techniques for the 97. Doc Shapiro has a bunch of good stuff. I would start with them. In fact, I think I am going to try to learn the 97 this winter myself. They are the guys I will start with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Is it worth the effort (new shotgun belt and a lot of practice) to get faster with the '97, or am I better off just sticking with the double. That depends on you and your goals. If your ultimate goal is to win matches, then I think it's a good idea to become proficient with BOTH guns. There are some stages that favor a SxS and others that favor a '97. Being good with both guns puts you in a darn fine position to get good times no matter what the stage writer throws at you. If your goal, as Duece Stevens puts it, is to just have fun then don't worry about it and shoot whichever one you enjoy the most. (Sorry Duece, couldn't resist the dig. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Frank, I did just the opposite. After about 15 years of exclusively using '97's, I acquired a double; a single trigger Stoeger Supreme. On a start as you suggested, I can dump four shots in a little over 5 seconds, maybe 5.25 on a good run. With the double (that I've had only 2 months), I can dump four shots in about 6.5 seconds. The difference is that my hits with the double running at that speed is about 90 - 95% where the hits with the '97 are about 75%. You can run the numbers but according to my calculations this makes the two guns about even for me. I'm faster with the '97 but more accurate with the double. I don't think that I can run much faster with the '97 but should be able to pick up a little speed, maybe one second, with the double. If that is the case the double would be a clear advantage. (Of course if I slow down with the '97, the hit rate goes up too) Which is best? In my book it's about a draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Buckshot: proper techniques and practice will help you discover that there may not be much 'speed' differences in those two SG's. Although, your adaptability to one over the other might allow you to be more proficient with one of them. I think the same can be said of the 87 also. I found myself having 'coordination' problems with the SxS but the 97 seem to fit me better. On the other hand, I have a shooting pardner who tried the 97 for a couple years just to discover that the 87 is perfect for him. Its just one of those things. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotgun Bandit Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Ya might want to start pullin 2 and workin yer way up to 3 or 4.........The fumble factor increses a bunch as the # if shells ya pull increases. Bandit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I found myself having 'coordination' problems Yeah, I've heard that about you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Yeah, I've heard that about you. You've heard the ole saying: "I'd cut off my right arm if I thought It would help me become ambidextrious". Well, thats me..... ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 Frank how many years have you used your SXS? Give the 97 as much time as you did your SXS and then decide. + you might try pulling 2 at a time untill you get used to it. just my 2 cents, have fun RCD I've only been shooting CAS since January; the whole time with the Stoeger. I'm sure that drawing two would speed up my first shot. I was trying the four at a time, because I figured that only drawing two with the '97 puts it at a disadvantage to the double. I guess that I should time myself drawing two at a time to see where the times fall. Just for the fun of it, I stoked the magazine on the '97 and timed four shots (same starting conditions as before). 3 seconds. The '97 wasn't designed to be used as a single shot shotgun . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattler Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 The '97 wasn't designed to be used as a single shot shotgun . HandleBar Doc won the overall National Championship SINGLE loading the 97!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 somebody tell him how to get to carnegie hall. C(who's never gonna get there)C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 The '97 wasn't designed to be used as a single shot shotgun . I don't know about the original intent of the design but I do know that if you watch some of the videos produced with Lead Dispenser, Badlands Bud and others, you will see that the 97 can be functioned with 'eye blinking speed' loading only one round at a time. Shot splits can be as low as .40 although uncommon (more common among Borgs and Cylons). And grabbing 2, 3 or 4 can be very proficient depending upon the technique of the shooter. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with your SxS either. Both type firearms can be very efficient in our game. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I bought a double, but I'm faster with a 97. Of course, it might be that I've always shot a 97. I think in time I could be as fast (in most cases) with a double...if I choose to put the time in with it. My money says the same would be true of you. +1 on Philly Slim's comments. I too think the ultimate is to be able to shoot both well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curley Cole, SASS #56849 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 on my best days I WAZ a middle of the pack guy. As the arthritis progresses I am getting slower. Now it is just the "pleasure" element. however, I got a good deal on an old 97 (you know there are 97 ways for it to break down.) anyways I had to cut it down a bit and I also am currently having to draw my shells singley. I am still showing somewhat good times. (if I waz real competative I would use my hammerless when I shoot my double as that is what is costing me time on the sxs.) anyways, start with 1 or two and work up. Oh how I wish I could even hold four rounds and the shot gun. enjoy curley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I use both and after a bit of practice, I'm probably as fast with either though I usually stick with the 97 for "speed". (probably a confidence issue) Curious though with a 97 I'm faster grabbing three and going back for #4 than I am grabbing four. Not quite sure what's up with that. Philly Slim made an excellent point; some stages work better for a double and some for 97. Sometimes I take both and use whatever seems to fit the stage best. I seem to do better with flyers with a SXS but I hit them birds better with a 97. That's me, not the gun and I gots to "practice" more. There's that "P" word again..... (hint) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phiren Smoke GUNFIGHTER Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Buckshot, Your comfort level with the 97 will increase fairly quickly. I use a hammered sxs and until recently loaded with my strong hand. I am starting to load with my off hand and have dry fire practiced for a month. First match I tried this in I don't know who was holding the shot gun because I had shells in both hands headed for the chambers . Second match was only a little better, 'til the last two stages when things started clicking. Moral of the story...give the 97 some time, but, in the end use what works for you. Hope this helps Smoke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 ya need three of em one ta shoot one fer a backup (dirty windy shoot day) one in the shop gettin fixed rotate as needed I carry both on my cart, 97 and SxS about the same speed with both of em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WymoreWrangler SASS 46187L Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Bucksot, I'll really confuse ya, I can load and shoot my TTN hammered double faster than my non hammered Bikhal, go figure... And I know, I've been shooting my TTN since they came out and feel very comfortable with it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Winchester Jack, SASS #70195 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Ya might want to start pullin 2 and workin yer way up to 3 or 4.........The fumble factor increses a bunch as the # if shells ya pull increases. Bandit I can fumble 2 with no problem. My usual is pull 2 drop 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yank_MaChain Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 If it makes you feel any better, I will admit that I am '97 handicapped. But when it comes to Wild Bunch and a shotgun full of shells, it like a machine gun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Winchester Jack, SASS #70195 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 with my SxS hammergun I can get the first 2 shots of quicker than I can with my 97. Its the empty gun/reload gun/cock hammers that kills me with the SxS. It usually takes at least 7 + seconds to do that assuming I dont fumble a shell or three Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Junky Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 I was the opposite……I shot a 97 forever but just could not shoot it consistent enough….I mainly fumbled shells and it wasn’t a gun issue. When I went to the double I lost a second and a half easy but I stuck with it. Now I’m faster AND more consistent with the double. I’m not saying one is better than the other I’m just saying what worked for me and that it takes time to get faster with a new gun and build technique. So don’t give up too early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadlee Headlee SASS 54317 L Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Frank, A good belt design that will work for both shotguns will allow for shells to be placed in singles, doubles, triples, or sets of 4 with an empty loop between any set as you see fit. As far as speed goes I believe that the double shooters is giving up nothing to the 97 shooter unless the gun is staged and re staged vertically. The fast guys out there are regularly beating 5 seconds for 4 shots in a real world match with either shotgun and some are beating 4 seconds. I think that what you decide to put the time into will show on the range. The key is correct practice. You have to know what to do to save the time in your technique now and then work on that. Let me know if you want to get together for some practice and we can go over it. Preferably bring a video camera if you have one. -Deadlee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Flimshaw Sass# 73310 Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Why would it be a surprise that you are faster with the gun you have been using for a long time vs one you have only been using a short time...........Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 The excellent sxs 'AND' 97 shooters that I know of have worn out a couple shotguns each through practice (dryfire/livefire) sessions,,, and that took some years to accomplish. In addition, these excellent shooters can negociate any stage writeup (vertical/horizonal/movement) without whining and do a fine job. The good sxs 'and' 97 shooters have only worn out one SG each. Blastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 The excellent sxs 'AND' 97 shooters that I know of have worn out a couple shotguns each through practice (dryfire/livefire) sessions,,, and that took some years to accomplish. In addition, these excellent shooters can negociate any stage writeup (vertical/horizonal/movement) without whining and do a fine job. The good sxs 'and' 97 shooters have only worn out one SG each. Blastmaster Blastmaster: some of the Wire Pards might look at your post as humorous but in reality, your dead on the money with this one. The emphasis is on 'Practice' and lots of it. Enough that a good or excellent shooter can wear one or more of these out just in practice.....dry or live. And yes, it don't happen overnight. Good post. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 The excellent sxs 'AND' 97 shooters that I know of have worn out a couple shotguns each through practice (dryfire/livefire) sessions,,, and that took some years to accomplish. In addition, these excellent shooters can negociate any stage writeup (vertical/horizonal/movement) without whining and do a fine job. The good sxs 'and' 97 shooters have only worn out one SG each. Blastmaster Only worn out one 97? I have three of the stupid things worn out and torn apart right now, and I aint sure I am even approaching good yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Hey Creeker, sent ya a PM ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red River Ray SASS#33254 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 The excellent sxs 'AND' 97 shooters that I know of have worn out a couple shotguns each through practice (dryfire/livefire) sessions,,, and that took some years to accomplish. In addition, these excellent shooters can negociate any stage writeup (vertical/horizonal/movement) without whining and do a fine job. The good sxs 'and' 97 shooters have only worn out one SG each. Blastmaster RRR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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