Long Branch Louie Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I'm looking at buying a new diesel pickup. I was looking at 2500 series diesels, the plan is to later buy a new 5th wheel trailer. For right now I have a 33' travel trailer. Some folks are telling me that a 2500 may not be enough, that some 5th wheels have over 3000lbs. pin weight and I should look at a dually or at least a single rear wheel 3500. Dealers and camper places are useless, they will say what they need to make a sale. I know ALL of them have the power to tow it, but I'm more worried about stability and stopping. Most of the 5th wheels I have looked at weigh 11-12K lbs., but they don't show a pin weight. Really don't have a problem with a dually except it's harder to get in the garage door. Any 5th wheel experts out there?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I, too, have researched the snot out of this subject and found that the truth is an elusive bugger. From what I can determine, bigger is better... to a point and then it's just more rolling stock, maintenance, fuel mileage and convenience. Then, if you're using a rig for hunting, boating, ranching, farming, etc. etc. well, it just gets complicated. BUT! From what I can determine, a 3/4 ton diesel will PULL or STOP anything that has its own brakes and axles. The suspension is a different matter (which is why some look like they're draggin') and that needs some extra attention. Colt Faro pulled the biggest (40+foot) toy hauler LOADED with a gator in the back, guns and gear to EOT and then all over the Rockies including Rocky Mtn Nat'l Park using a 3/4 ton FORD SHORT BED. He had the airbags installed before he left. He told me last week that it pulled flawlessly, parked easily, got decent mileage, stopped no problem, managed the hills, etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Long Branch Louie, +1 what Bro. King said. Install the air bags to accomodate the extra load. (Air pressure can be lowered when not pulling the 5th Wheel). Just be sure you have tires that are rated for the load also. That will do it nicely. RBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Seen #16162 Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 The answer is very simple. Buy as much truck as you can afford. I can not ever think of a instance where my wife and I said "we have too much truck." However I can think of several occasion where we said to each other "boy, I'm glad we have a big truck." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Saint Paw Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 check out www.RV.net Tons and tons of information on there. The short answer is a 3/4 ton is not usually enough truck for most of today's fifth wheels. You will be much happier with a dually as it will provide a lot more stability but at the minimum you will want a single rear wheel 1 ton. A lot of the manufacturers web sites will show the pin weight for their models. Keep in mind though all their weights are usually for a basic trailer, no options installed such as generators, different bed configurations, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonewall willie-1 Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I have used an 05 dodge 2500 for the last 3 years to pull my 27 ft 5th wheel with one slide with no problems. Usually get about 15 mpg, depending on the wind. My unit has a high straight up front and really catches the wind. I take the 5th wheel unit out of the truck and this only leaves two rails across the bed, about 1" high. They do not interfere with anything i want to put in the bed between camper pulling trips. The dully 3500 is good if you get anything 30' or longer, but it is higher maintance and usually gets less milage. You can't go wrong with the cummings engine. Just traded off my old dodge cumings(93) with 220,000 miles and had done nothing to the engine except change oil. Stonewall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taquila Tab, Sass #25048 Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 For right now I have a 33' travel trailer. Some folks are telling me that a 2500 may not be enough, that some 5th wheels have over 3000lbs. pin weight and I should look at a dually or at least a single rear wheel 3500./quote] I'm certainly no expert but I've found that 15% - 20% of the total trailer weight is what you want on the pin. Unless you're pulling a 20,000lb trailer or larger you shouldn't have a 3,000lb pin weight. Length of the trailer is really less of a concern and with a 5th wheel some of that length is in the bed of the truck. I have an F-250 diesel and pull a 34ft 5th wheel. When fully loaded I'm at about 11,200lb and the CAT scales say I have a pin weight of about 1,880 lbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying W Ramrod Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Running a 28.6 foot, two slide fifth wheel with the GMC 3/4ton Duramax with no problems. Check the truck specs, duallis, long beds etc have LOWER fifth wheel capacities. My fifth wheel hits around 12k when loaded for shooting. Duramax is a great engine and has excellent power. The Allison drive has standard compression brakes and will pull anything. Luck to ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Until recently I had a 04 dodge 3500, dually, with cummins HO and 6sp manual. It also had the max brake system, the best aftermarket system I feel you can buy. had a 37ft montana with a pin of 2400 and loaded around 13k+. duallys are lucky to get 45k out of the rear tires... I never felt side winds at all, If you go with a dodge, 03-05 were the best yrs for the cummmins.. good luck cheyenne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullwhip Karl Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Whatever brand you pick, before you lay down that gold. Ask the dealer for the tow capacity charts and lookup the truck you are interested in. Do not depend on the web pages for towing capacity. As the weight of the vehicle goes up towing capacity goes down. 2 or 4 doors, long and short beds, axle ratio, wheelbase, single or dualie, will make the difference in the towing capacity of your vehicle. I have seen towing charts were a single has a greater towing capacity then a dualie. Just because it is a truck, it may not tow what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T. Pinkerton Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I tow a 34' Cardinal 5th wheel with a F=250 long bed but I would recommend a F-350 for the suspension if the trailer were any bigger. The drive train/brakes etc. is the same on the F-250 as is the F-350, but the F-350 has the ability for more pin weight (figure 20=25% of the trailer weight on the pin for a fifth wheel). You have an additional spring on the F-350, which increases the ability to handle the pin weight. Course, a person could also add air bags and have about the same effect (however you will probably exceed your rated gross weight limit if you do this). Cant comment on the difference between the chevy 2500 and the 3500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 radiator is the biggest factor 3/4 and 1 tons don't have enough cooling capacity for really long freeway grade pulls that is what I have lernt my 2003 chev 4500 rocked on-man, huge radiator and huge brakes cept it required commercial insurance,,,, so I had to down size with the down sized income Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Jack Daniels Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I have been using a crew cab dually for the past 26 years. I am on my 4th one which is an 05 duramax. When I got the first one, I was somewhat concerned about the ride because it was my everyday go to work truck. When I got it I was amazed with both the ride and the extra stability with the extra rear wheels. I have gotten as much as 75,000 miles out of a set of "E" rated michelins. most if not all dually's come with "E" rated tires while the 3/4 tons do not. I pull a 35ft 5th wheel RV and on my last Calif. end of trail, we went out through Denver, west to Las Vegas and on into Norco. Then we went north to Redmond , Oregon and home to Mn. through Salt Lake on 80. Driving 65 to 70 we got 10.2 miles per gallon for the entire trip of a little over 5000 miles. IMHO when you see somebody driving or pulling with a 1T with single rear wheels, it brings to mind the old saying "You cannot expect them to know any better if they have never had any better". I also pull a 25ft flat bed 5th wheel hay trailer and have weighed in at over 29,000 lbs with the truck loaded. If I was shopping for a new truck I would seriously consider the new Ram with the HD Cumminngs. I don't particularly like the idea of the diesel fluid requirement for the Ford and Chevrolet. At the Minneapolis auto show this spring I was told it holds 5.3 gal of Diesel fluid at a cost of $22.35 a gal, which will last about 3000 miles ands if you run out it will keep going, but will not start again without it. They say the stuff also freezes in cold weather. Good luck shopping. GJD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Burns Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Look real close at your hitch weight.A 3/4 ton truck is rated at 1500 lbs. That would be the hitch weight. I pull a 29' 5ver with a 1800 pound hitch weight. That requires a 1 ton truck (3500) There has be some instances that troopers have weighed rvers and wrote tickets for too much hitch weight for that particular truck,- Over weight. Just depends on how bad the trooper wants to be. Look at the rv forum web site mentioned. There is a lot of info there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickahominy Charlie Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I guess with all the trailers we have around my house, I guess that makes me "an expert"....at least enough to add to this discussion. The only gasoline engine around my house is the lawnmower. I, too, have a 33' FW Travel Trailer dressing out at about 12k lbs. (and an 18' flatbed and a 3 horse slant with tack room). I have an older model F-250 ('96) and a Dodge 3500 Dually ('07). I can pull my TT with the 250, but I'd rather not pull it a long way with it. It does lack in stability, but that old 7.3 has no problems with the load. I pulled the TT into the Rockies with the Dodge last year on vacation and it was amazingly smooth. As noted above, cross winds are nonexistent and it just feels more stable than with my 250. I also think the idea of the air bags is a good one, although I've not had the need for them with anything I tow regularly. The dually is a pain sometimes in tight parking lots or going to the ATM (who designs these things?... the folks from Toyota?). As with anything, however, I think everything is a trade off. You can "get by" with the 3/4 ton and not have to buy the extra tires, etc. or you can get the 1 ton and not have to worry about "not having enough truck" (but probably have a greater maintenance bill in the long run). Good luck! Chick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Branch Louie Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 Thanks to everybody for your input. I believe I will go with a dually, it will be some time before I buy the 5th wheel ($$$), so for the kind of money I have to spend, I better get it right the first time. Now, what can ya'll tell me about missing targets and being too slow.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taquila Tab, Sass #25048 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Look real close at your hitch weight.A 3/4 ton truck is rated at 1500 lbs. That would be the hitch weight. I pull a 29' 5ver with a 1800 pound hitch weight. That requires a 1 ton truck (3500) There has be some instances that troopers have weighed rvers and wrote tickets for too much hitch weight for that particular truck,- Over weight. Just depends on how bad the trooper wants to be. Look at the rv forum web site mentioned. There is a lot of info there. Just curious, but where are you coming up with those figures? My Ford published specs say my 3/4 ton truck has a gross combined weight rating of 23,000 lbs. According to the Cat scales, my truck with all fluids (including an auxilary fuel tank), the wife, dog and me weighs 8,080 lbs. which would leave 14,920 lbs. for the trailer. My actual trailer weight was 11,260 lbs with clothes, guns and gear so I would seem fine there. With the trailer hooked up I had a drive axle weight of 4,740 lbs. Without the trailer the drive axle weight was 3,260 lbs which means I have 1,480 lbs. on the pin. This is 13% of the total trailer weight which is a little light. Everything I have read says you should have 15%-18% pin weight so I did move my generator forward which puts me now right at 15%. But according to the GCWR of the truck I could pull a 15,000 lb trailer which would have a pin weight around 2,250 lbs. But that would be maxed out and I prefer to leave at least a 10% margin of error so with this truck I wouldn't want to tow a trailer over 13,500 lbs (fully loaded). Don't get me wrong, I think my next truck will be a 1-ton dually and will also have an engine brake. But I think the OP could pull a decent size trailer with a 3/4 ton pu. I think the mistake some folks make is they look at the posted weight of the trailer but forget that is an empty weight. After you add propane, water, holding tanks, dishes, clothes, televisions, etc. it's easy to add on several thousand more lbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 when it comes to pulling hills stopping when ya need it buy as large of a truck as possible, put proper load range tires on it,,,, like (E) and probably a larger (rated truck) than ya are thinking right now, and ya will probably be spending $$ in a safer direction sure, you can go under-rated my step father pulled a bumber pull travel trailer from spokane to mexico every winter for 10 years (snow birds) in with a 1972 half ton chev truck and always wondered why he had spring, wheel, and tire probems. claims he never drove over 50mph on those trips as well geeeeese lots of trucks can do lots of things, it dont make it necessarly the right thing ta doo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Goodnight Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Airbags will be a good addition whether you go 1 ton or not. Also the DEF can be bought at walmart or nearly any truck stop for less than 5 bucks a gallon. Don't expect much mileage whatever you pull it with. It's not necessarily the weight. You have a lot of wind resistance with a fifth wheel. I have gotten as low as 6 mpg and as high as 13.4 pulling travel trailers. This is over about 10 years pulling with ford, chevy , and dodge. my current rig is an 08 gmc, 2500, with duramax, I pull a 26 ft Holliday rambler that weighs about 7500 lbs with gear in it. I have gotten a max of 11.8 mpg on a 500 mile trip. Pulling and stopping is no problem. I could run 85 up or down hill if I wanted. Stability is no problem with air bags. My last 4 trucks were duallies, so I have a pretty good point of reference. There is some difference but not significant until I pull about 11,000 lbs.I would consider this my weight point to look at the dually for stability purposes. How often are you going to pull this trailer? If it's only a few times a year I would probably get the single wheel, even though there is no cost difference. The last truck I had that got any better than 13 mpg loaded was nearly 20 years ago. I see a lot of posts on various forums where they say the get much better. I average about 18 on the highway and that hasn't changed much im the last 10 years or so. I have driven close to 400,000 miles pulling various trailers the last 10 or so years, so I have a pretty good point of reference. I have also tried every after market option to increase power and mileage. Read carefully and beware. There are options that work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Both of the Ford 3/4 and 1 ton single rear wheel models have the same towing specs for Fifth Wheel and Tag towing. I have been told that the brakes are large on the 1 ton and the suspension is stiffer from personal experience. I went with the 1 ton this last time after buying a larger 40' toy hauler. I will be adding AIr bags in the future plus a Banks intake system and exhaust when the warranty and payments are over with. It helps with both the towing and unloaded performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 with a dually remember if you have to fold the mirrors you will not fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Now, what can ya'll tell me about missing targets and being too slow.... Oh I've got LOTS of experience with those, whatcha wanna know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drover Dan, SASS #47291 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 When I bought my '08, the difference between 3/4 ton and one ton was only about $150 msrp. I went with the one ton. Drover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasatch Lawman Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I bought a 08 F450 Ford to pull my 40 footer, don't hardly notice it back there till a really really steep hill. No airbags needed. Has a very good cooling system, I think I counted half a dozen cooling cores under the hood for the different systems. One draw back.........about 8 miles a gallon pulling Wasatch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchy Cannuck Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Wow! I just bought a Cougar 33fter 5th wheel. I pull it with my F150 half ton with the 5.4lt engine (Largest V8). Not expecting to travel the world mind you and likely will up grade to a F250 in 3 or 4 more years. I did add air bags and after market digital trailer brake. But I feel real good pulling it right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Ever take that F150 and Cougar over the scales??? There are several ways to bust weight limits. Can be over gross for the vehicle. Can be over gross for either the front or rear axles or both. GVWR does not equal max front axle plus max rear. Can exceed combined vehicle weight limit and can actually bust the load limit for the tires as well (need to make sure enough air is in tires for load as well, more load more air to a point only need to read the tires). Not sure any of the above really matter legally, but would really hate to kill somebody in an accident and then loose everything I own because I was grossly and criminally negligent by exceeding weight limits. Folks selling trailers will not tell you in most cases the trailer is too big for the truck. I know my 2005 Dodger Ram 3500 LB Club Cab 4x4 SRW only had 2800 lbs of cargo capacity. The wife and I and the normal coolers fishing gear stoves propane tanks etc usually ate about 800 lbs of that. With my current trailer that was not a problem. But the pin weight of many trailers that were not overall really heavy would cause me to bust GVWR. The Montana I want when we retire was about 200 lbs to heavy on pin weight for the truck. When the 05 went to Mexico without me, looked at 2010s. The upped the GVWR but the difference between the weight of the truck and the upped GVWR was actually less than the 05 so went with the dually. Over trucked for current trailer, but it is much more stable. Not that the 05 ever seamed unstable, but the new one is more stable. Really like the new built in Cumins exhaust brake. Actually a variable pitch turbo charger vs a vacuum or pressure activated baffle. Thought the old trucks Banks brake was good, but there is no comparison. Could also have some thing to do with the 6speed vs 4 speed automatic tranny as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchy Cannuck Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 According to my owners manual the max tow capacity on my F150 is 11,500 lb, The trailer is 10,136 lbs. I did put 4 new 10 ply Michelin tires on the truck and it does greatly add to the stability. In a few more years I'll want to start going down Texas way for a the last part of the winter, at that point getting more truck will make sense since we'll be traveling much longer distances. Right now the trailer pretty well stays in one spot with maybe 3 or 4 trips a year and no great distances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rippin kid Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 If you do not intend to keep your truck forever the diesel is not the best idea. It will take more that 200,000 miles to make up the cost difference with a gas truck. The big gas V8 can pull just as well and will save big bucks. There is no difference between a F250 and an F350 except the rear springs. Things get different when going into a F450 or F550. For safety sake keep your total tow weight about 3/4 of your trucks max. Something to think about those who thinking about getting an engine brakes. Stopping a load take a know force, be that your brakes or your engine. You can either ware out your engine or brakes. There ware on your engine takes much longer but in the end is much more expensive to fix. Replace brakes is easy and cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Bowdie Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 I think I have to respond to your comment, "Dealers and camper places are useless, they will say what they need to make a sale." I sell RV's and take pride in myself in helping my customers pick out an RV that suits their needs, and matching their tow vehicle up with a trailer they can safely tow. Besides the issue of integrity there is a legal aspect involved. If I sell them a trailer too heavy for their vehicle and they are involved in an accident, who do you think is going to be sued? Kind of like saying "They all look alike"... ...know what I mean? Now, to help you with your dilemma let me offer you this information. Trailer Life dot com has towing guides available for downloading. You can access their website using this link: Trailerlife.com Before posting this I tried the download link but it wasn't working. If you cannot access it, drop me an email (not a personal message [PM] ) and I'll reply and attach a .pdf file if you'll tell me what year your truck is. I have most years downloaded. No charge, Pard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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