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Recoil and Black Powder Sub's


Dang It Dan 13202

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Ok,

 

Some of you kind folk helped me with a BP shotgun load, which I think I have finally figured out, BUT

now I am working on a load for my .38's with a 120 grain bullet. I have started with Triple Seven only because it's easy to get (Bass Pro Shop) but it got me wondering if one BP substitute has less recoil than another.

 

Anyone ever tested this?

 

Thanks,

 

Dang It Dan

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Yep, the difference is determined by the specific joules of energy stored in a given amount of powder. I think you'll find the energy/velocity differences run from 777 to real BP then APP. I haven't actually chronoed specific differences in a long time, but the differences are quite amazing. I don't like 777 for anything but shotgun. Since I'm a gamer, I like APP for handguns and rifle.

 

Coffinmaker

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Ok,

 

Some of you kind folk helped me with a BP shotgun load, which I think I have finally figured out, BUT

now I am working on a load for my .38's with a 120 grain bullet. I have started with Triple Seven only because it's easy to get (Bass Pro Shop) but it got me wondering if one BP substitute has less recoil than another.

 

Anyone ever tested this?

 

Thanks,

 

Dang It Dan

 

 

Howdy,

It's my understanding that triple 7 and Pyrodex are both hot powders, which means the resultant recoil will be more, as the more powder you use, APP which maybe hard to get seems to be closer to real BP but produces more smoke per CC than real BP, then you have good old BP. Hope that helps

 

KK

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Yes, Triple 777 will always be a bit hotter then another BP Sub or BP of equal granulation (3F to 3F, 2F to 2F). However I am fairly certain that 2F Triple 777 will not be quite as hot as 3F BP or 3F APP.

 

Having said all that, I have been using 2F Triple 777 in my .38 loads for rifle (and pistol when I shoot BP cartridge in the handgun) and 2F Triple 777 in my 58 Remington Cap & Ball's and find the recoil in both to be mild.

 

I don't use Triple 777 in the shotgun because I found that using Triple 777 caused the recoil of my 10 gauge shotgun loads (admittedly VERY HEAVY) to cross the line between very strong shove into very strong punch. I also found it shortened hull life and led to melting of the mouth of the hull.

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FYI, Bass Pro also sells Goex BP. You just have to ask the people at the gun counter for it. There is no indication at all in the store that they sell it... I just happened to ask someone about it. I started out with the APP and for me, a full load a 38 got my attention, so I backed it down a bit and used some filler. Also, APP puts out way more smoke than real BP.

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I use APP for .45 CS in pistols, .38 in rifle and 12-gage. Lots of smoke. Recoil is not a problem. 1/16" to 1/8" compression aids combustion and reduces hangfires. APP does not require BP-lubed bullets and cleans well with moose-milk then vinegar-based Windex.

There are likely better options but APP simply works well enough.

Now if I can get the periscope mounted to my cowboy hat so that I can see over the smoke cloud... (Gamey, but not covered in the SASS handbook!)

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FYI, Bass Pro also sells Goex BP. You just have to ask the people at the gun counter for it. There is no indication at all in the store that they sell it... I just happened to ask someone about it. I started out with the APP and for me, a full load a 38 got my attention, so I backed it down a bit and used some filler. Also, APP puts out way more smoke than real BP.

 

 

Very interesting. I would most likely use Goex BP if I could get my hands on it with no fuss.

 

The Trip-7 is HOT using the perscribed load in .38 and even though I am not adverse to a little recoil, I don't want to feel like I am shooting a .357 magnum in competition either.

 

I may have to break down and try to order some APP.

 

Thanks All.

 

Dan

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Very interesting. I would most likely use Goex BP if I could get my hands on it with no fuss.

 

The Trip-7 is HOT using the perscribed load in .38 and even though I am not adverse to a little recoil, I don't want to feel like I am shooting a .357 magnum in competition either.

 

I may have to break down and try to order some APP.

 

Thanks All.

 

Dan

 

Try the 2F Triple 777 instead of the 3F, it makes a difference

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I hate to say this because it will draw a lot of heated reply's, but I'll do it anyway. Unless you can find a way around it, or can disprove Sir Issac Newtons third law of motion, the idea of one powder or another having anything to do with recoil is simply conjecture. The third law of motion states that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. In a firearm, there are only three elements of recoil. Weight of the firearm, weight of the ejecta, and velocity. Nothing else has any effect on recoil. NOTHING. Pressure is NOT an element of recoil. Pressure differences MAY cause a difference in Velocity, but in and of it'self, pressure has no effect on recoil.

 

All this being said, the speed of burning a particular powder has, can spread the recoil over a longer period of time, (we're talking Micro-seconds), and could cause a PERCIEVED decrease in recoil, but not an actual one. First off the human body is incapable of distinguishing such minor changes of recoil impulse, within a few, (3 to 5), Microseconds.

 

It's all a head game folks. Where you are perceiving the difference in recoil, is actually in changes in velocity, derived from one powder to the next. Black is loaded by case-full, real or substitute. Each different brand can burn at a different rate and even a different pressure, which will lead to a different VELOCITY, and therefore give a different recoil impulse. If all BP or subs gave the EXACT SAME VELOCITY, there absolutely could be NO DIFFERENCE in recoil.

 

OK, flame on, but you cannot change the theory that governs recoil.

 

RBK

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No flame from me Rio.

 

I agree with every thing you just said. But, in my experience having used all three powders and in addition, the old Clean Shot(?), I found that FELT recoil went as stated: 777 is the hottest, BP is second and APP is a close 3rd to real BP. 2Fg 777 is not as hot as 3Fg 777 which is not recommended by the manufacturer, by the way.

 

I prefer real BP, GOEX being the most available in my area. So, that's what I use. It does require a specially lubed bullet. In my case Springfield Slim's version of the Big Liubes. I find that real BP actually is more pleasant to shoot and as easy to clean up as the subs once you get the hang of it.

 

And... with real BP you not only get smoke, but also FIRE and BRIMSTONE!

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RBK ... a Big Plus 1. A super explanation.

I hope you have saved your post on your computer due to the 30 day Wire life span. Just cut and paste it the next time there is a thread asking about "light' shot shell loads.

 

About Triple Seven though: I got an approved recipe from the Hodgdon's using a 156gr bullet in a 30-30. The recoil about ripped my face off! Like being slammed shooting a 10ga slug gun

 

... got me wondering if one BP substitute has less recoil than another.

Dan, the weakest substitute IMO is Pinnacle. It is made from ascorbic acid and the longer one keeps the cap off the container, the weaker it gets. :D It's not cheap but Powder Inc has it ...

http://www.powderinc.com/

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just got into BP and found:

 

1) 777 2f is "best" for my 12 guage load

 

2) APP 3f is "best" for my .38 (125g bullet). The 777 2f was "more felt recoil", but the APP was just a bit more "felt recoil" than my Trail Boss load..

 

3) Have not messed with .45 rilfe load yet....

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2Fg 777 is not as hot as 3Fg 777 which is not recommended by the manufacturer, by the way.

 

 

 

Say that again......

 

I am using Triple 7, FFFg for the .38's. Is that not right??

 

BTW, I loaded up some 2Fg 777 for the shotgun over the weekend and used the same amount as the Pyrodex 2Fg is it was much hotter.

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RBK ... a Big Plus 1. A super explanation.

I hope you have saved your post on your computer due to the 30 day Wire life span. Just cut and paste it the next time there is a thread asking about "light' shot shell loads.

 

About Triple Seven though: I got an approved recipe from the Hodgdon's using a 156gr bullet in a 30-30. The recoil about ripped my face off! Like being slammed shooting a 10ga slug gun

 

 

Dan, the weakest substitute IMO is Pinnacle. It is made from ascorbic acid and the longer one keeps the cap off the container, the weaker it gets. :D It's not cheap but Powder Inc has it ...

http://www.powderinc.com/

 

Do you have to use a special lube on the bullet with Pinnacle??

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RBK - Thanks for the info.

 

Yeah, I thought about what I said, and the way I said it after I posted. I know the differnce between recoil and "felt" recoil and the relationship between how fast a powder burns.

 

But, you did an excellent job of explaining it.

 

Thanks.

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Say that again......

 

I am using Triple 7, FFFg for the .38's. Is that not right??

 

BTW, I loaded up some 2Fg 777 for the shotgun over the weekend and used the same amount as the Pyrodex 2Fg is it was much hotter.

 

Try FFG Triple 777 for the 38 Special, kicks MUCH less

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Say that again......

 

I am using Triple 7, FFFg for the .38's. Is that not right??

 

BTW, I loaded up some 2Fg 777 for the shotgun over the weekend and used the same amount as the Pyrodex 2Fg is it was much hotter.

 

 

Hodgdon's load data does not include T7 fffg loadings for cartridges. They only recommend ffg.

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/muzzleloading_manual_2008.pdf?CHECKBOX_1=on

 

Pinnacle is basically a graphited APP. You can use smokeless lubed bullets with it. Pinnacle is no longer being made now that Hodgdon bought out Goex.

 

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

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Say that again......

 

I am using Triple 7, FFFg for the .38's. Is that not right??

 

BTW, I loaded up some 2Fg 777 for the shotgun over the weekend and used the same amount as the Pyrodex 2Fg is it was much hotter.

There's a very specific warning right on a bottle of FFFg that says it is NOT to be used in cartridges.

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Hey Dang It. The boys beat me to it. Yeah, forget the 2F for 45 and 3F for smaller caliber stuff. That only applies to real BP.

 

And as has been stated the label on 3F says not to use 3F 777 in cartridges, period. I have used both and the 3F is definitely hotter.

 

I think the difference between 777 and the other subs along with BP is 15%. 777 being 15% more energy and recoil than BP. I think I got that from Captain Baylor's site.

 

Pinnacle, I'm told, is made by the same people that make APP; so, yes it can be used with smokeless lubed bullets.

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OK Folks, here's some velocity comparisons compliments of Bill Knight, The Mad Monk, that were tested in his percussion muzzle loader:

 

Pinnacle FFFg, unopened container with seal intact.

60 gr. 1136 fps ave., ES 209

80 gr. 1224 fps ave., ES 60

100 gr. 1356 fps ave., ES 92

 

Pinnacle FFg, unopened container with seal intact.

60 gr. 1147 fps ave., ES 65

80 gr. 1305 fps ave., ES 17

100 gr. 1552 fps ave., ES 75

 

Compared to:

 

Pyrodex P, 2 year old sample.

60 gr. 1518 fps ave., ES 73

80 gr. 1695 fps ave., ES 46

100 gr. 1801 fps ave., ES 97

 

Black Mag 3, container from July 2004.

60 gr. 1329 fps ave., ES 297

80 gr. 1564 fps ave., ES 198

100 gr. 1892 fps ave., ES 276

(Barrel gets fairly hot while shooting)(Velocities highly erratic)

(Splattered melted powder and residue all over the chronograph sky screens and tripod.)

 

Triple Seven FFg ( 2 year old sample.)

60 gr. 1593 fps ave., ES 31

80 gr. 1828 fps ave., ES 31

(will not run 100 grains due to pressures and recoil)

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Good explanation wrong law, should be the conservation of momentum, powders burn rate does matter. If you have a fast burning powder u use less the pulse rate is quicker and less gas is produced. Slower burning powder needs more charge to get the same fps, more gas is produced and more felt recoil. And yes bullet weight , gun weight does play into it along with conservation of energy. Newtons 1st and 2nd laws r in there to I believe.

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Dan, one powder you don't need to be concerned with is the Black Mag 3. It's new reformulation is Black Mag XP which is also a mixture of heat degraded ascorbic acid and “raw” ascorbic acid.

Reason you don't need to be concerned about the new Black Mag XP is because the plant blew up last Fall in New Hampshire. The sad part is, I believe more than one worker died in the explosion

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Great!

 

Now I get to throw away about 150 round of ammo I loaded with Triple 7 FFFg over the weekend. Glad I didn't shoot it, but what a waste.

 

Thanks for the info guys.

 

Dan

 

Depending on how much you loaded in you may still be able to use them. The warning about 777 is primarily for liability protection. I have used FFF 777 in cartridges for years and have had no problems. 777 is about 25-33% more powerful that GOEX or Pyrodex, but is not as susceptible to absorbing moisture. Lower the volume and use a filler when loading and it should work fine.

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So what would be a good SUB Shotgun load? I'll be using AA hull and 1 1/8 load of shot. Gonna use Jim Shockley fffg.

A load using a CB1138-12 wad works. I sent details via a PM.

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So what would be a good SUB Shotgun load? I'll be using AA hull and 1 1/8 load of shot. Gonna use Jim Shockley fffg.
Guess you didn't visit the APP website

http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com/loading.html

12 ga Shotgun 1 oz. of shot 51 grains of FFg Powder

 

No loading data for 1 1/8oz shot shells

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Not as experienced here as some, but I agree with Carolina Jack. When I was loading goex in my old armies I found that I could get the same velocity from 777 using much less powder by volume, about 12-15 grs less and when you did that there wasn't hardly any difference in felt recoil. With my 45s I've been using 3F 777 for 3 or 4 years, the way Capt. Baylor explained with no issues at all. If you use the same amount of powder (by volume) of 777 and Goex it ain't the same. You have to reduce the 777 charge by at least 15%, maybe more. The plus side of 777 is no special lube on bullets and clean-up is easy and doesn't have to be done immediately after use. The loading process is also very simple. I use 45 loads that generate 735-750 fps with a 250 gr bullet out of 7 1/2 Rugers and around 925-950 out of my long barrel rifle. Of course like anything else your mileage may vary, and i suggest you get out a chrono or when all else fails call Capt. Baylor, he has a wealth of knowledge and experience in this area.

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Guess you didn't visit the APP website

http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com/loading.html

12 ga Shotgun 1 oz. of shot 51 grains of FFg Powder

 

No loading data for 1 1/8oz shot shells

 

No..... I did visit the website. But with 51 grains of powder I couldn't get the wad and shot in the hull. There was nothing left to crimp and fold. I have it at 35 grains with my white clay buster wads and its knocking down the SG targets and the smoke is unreal........ I think Deb is rethinking this crazy idea of hers.

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