You Make The Call

[BJT]

Congratulations, you have been promoted to Match Director. Your first job is to resolve a disputed call.

 

 

The stage is pistol-pistol-rifle-shotgun.

 

On posse 1, a shooter is flying through the stage until the first rifle round for his Marlin does not fire. The TO instructs the shooter to cock the rifle, remove the safety and fire. The shooter completes the stage with no misses or procedurals.

 

On posse 2, a shooter is flying through the stage until the first rifle round for his Marlin does not fire.

The TO instructs the shooter to set the rifle down and report to the unloading table as he has been DQ'd for arriving at the stage with the hammer not fully down on his rifle. The hammer was resting on the cross bolt safety.

 

On posse 3, a shooter arrives at the stage and is DQ'd for his '73 rifle hammer being at half cock.

 

 

 

The shooters from posse two and three protests to you, the match director. What do you rule and why?

 

 

 

Very Best Regards,

 

BJT

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

BJT,

 

When did you decide to start tollin??

 

Coffinmaker

[BJT]

I toil all through the night

 

Nothing brings light to darkness like a question..........

 

BJT,

 

When did you decide to start tollin??

 

Coffinmaker

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Need a little more info. Was it High or Low tide? Any of the shooters play the violin? MT

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

I don't have time for a lot of BS, I have to go to work, so I'll throw out the stage.

 

Honestly, shooter 2 has not violated the rules as his hammer was down as his rifle was designed to be safe. He gets a re-shoot for TO interference.

 

I'm not sure shooter 3 can claim the same defense. DQ.

 

Fillmore

[Cholla Bob]

Honestly, shooter 2 has not violated the rules as his hammer was down as his rifle was designed to be safe. He gets a re-shoot for TO interference.

 

I'm not sure shooter 3 can claim the same defense. DQ.

 

Fillmore

Yup!

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Shooter 2 is lucky. RO Committee has already ruled that "hammer fully down" has to be called PRIOR TO the shooter handling the gun as it is impossible to determine whether shooter staged with hammer NOT fully down after shooter has handled the gun.

 

Shooter 3 is not so lucky. Hammer at 1/2 cock is "hammer not fully down". Pull the trigger at the LT before you begin loading the rifle.

 

Shooter 1 should buy his RO a beer.

[BJT]

I don't have time for a lot of BS, I have to go to work, so I'll throw out the stage.

 

Honestly, shooter 2 has not violated the rules as his hammer was down as his rifle was designed to be safe. He gets a re-shoot for TO interference.

 

I'm not sure shooter 3 can claim the same defense. DQ.

 

Fillmore

 

When you are through with work.......

 

Shooter 3 hammer is on the "safety notch" how would this not be "hammer was down as his rifle was designed to be safe"?

 

 

Very Best Regards,

 

BJT

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I'm gona go along with Fillmore (I hate to see him wrong all by hisself)...

 

Anyhow, this is a good reason for that 73 shooter to get a good Marlin!

 

BJT: BUT, I do have to ask: 'What do you mean by 'arrives at the stage'? Do you mean the firing line or the UNL table, etc...

 

Its only 10:00 here on the right cost. Your up awful early my friend.

 

 

..........Widder

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

You forgot about the shooter on posse 4 that had a rifle with a rebounding hammer!!

 

Get over it.

 

Blackfoot

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Stage DQ for shooter number 1.

[coloradoblackjack]

posse 2 and 3 shooters get a stage DQ.

 

RO 1 pg 18

15. Rifles may be “staged” with the magazine loaded, action closed, hammer fully down on the

empty chamber (not on the “safety” notch), as long as the muzzle is pointed in a safe

direction—adheres to the 170° safety rule, and the muzzle is never on the ground.

Note: When the muzzle is “on the ground,” the barrel will normally be “up-range” from the

receiver, violating the 170° safety rule.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

posse 2 and 3 shooters get a stage DQ.

 

RO 1 pg 18

15. Rifles may be “staged” with the magazine loaded, action closed, hammer fully down on the

empty chamber (not on the “safety” notch), as long as the muzzle is pointed in a safe

direction—adheres to the 170° safety rule, and the muzzle is never on the ground.

Note: When the muzzle is “on the ground,” the barrel will normally be “up-range” from the

receiver, violating the 170° safety rule.

 

Shooter #1's rifle was in the same condition as #2 and #3's.

[Three Foot Johnson]

posse 2 and 3 shooters get a stage DQ.

Why would you give #2 a DQ and not #1, when both rifles were in the same condition??

 

And how many times have we seen Uberti revolvers not go bang because the base pin was pushed back into the safety position? I've NEVER seen a penalty assessed for this.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

I know what the cross bolt safety was intended to do, I have never heard a clear explanation as to what the half cock, "safety notch" was intended to do by the designer of the 1873 but the RO1 manual reference pretty much says it all.

 

Fillmore

[Blastmaster]

Shooter 2 is lucky. RO Committee has already ruled that "hammer fully down" has to be called PRIOR TO the shooter handling the gun as it is impossible to determine whether shooter staged with hammer NOT fully down after shooter has handled the gun..

 

Brother King,

 

I have not heard of the RO Committee making that rule you just stated. Where can I find it?

 

 

Edit: If the hammer on the marlin is fully down, cann't get any further down 'and' the safety being on that causes the slightly higher (but fully down) hammer, then he is legal. Second posse gets a reshoot because of RO interference if that is the state his marlin was in when he staged it.

 

Eit-edit: Posse 3 shooter is SOL

[Marauder SASS #13056]

For obvious reasons, SASS does not have any rules (that I know of) that prohibit the person from using a proven safety feature.

 

When I started, I was surprised that you were not to use any type of "half cock" safety but I understand that such safeties are generally not trusted by many experienced folks. I understand that the "safety notch" is no where near as effective as the hammer bloclk or even trigger block safeties.

Never the less it surprises me that we are not to use the "half cock" on a 73 rifle over an empty chamber. I think here, we may be more concerned with any competitive advantage of having the hammer not fully down, but it always seemed to me that having the gun on the "safety notch" over an empty chamber would be as safe or safer than having the hammer down - and possibly not an empty chamber.

(I would guess that that is partly what BJT may be getting to. He's a subtle rascal )

 

But with the above in mind, the shooter is never inhibited in using a hammer block or trigger blocking safety such as on your SxS, your pistol (as mentioned for some clones) or your rifle such as included on newer Marlins and 92 copies. It would be a liability exposure for us to NOT allow their use.

 

As such, and according to the quoted rule above, having the gun on a safety such as mentioned in BJT's original post is never a penalty - other than the time it may take to take it off safety.

 

So no call in the first situation where the safety was on and the shooter forgot it and was reminded.

 

The second situation was essentially the same, so not penalty should be given. Give the shooter a reshoot for R.O. interference since the R.O. stopped the shooter in error.

 

Shooter 3 got an appropriate penalty, if the shooter set the gun down and left it in that manner.

 

But I do ask, if the R.O. could have seen it and have the shooter correct it, would it have been a penalty then?

I would guess (to be consistent) the answer would be yes, since if the gun would have arrived with a round under the hammer. . .

[Fingers McGee]

If the hammer on the marlin is fully down, cann't get any further down 'and' the safety being on that causes the slightly higher (but fully down) hammer, then he is legal. Second posse gets a reshoot because of RO interference if that is the state his marlin was in when he staged it.

 

Eit-edit: Posse 3 shooter is SOL

 

+1 Big difference between a hammer block/crossbolt safety and a safety notch in the hammer.

 

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Marauder,

 

I asked PWB the logic behind not allowing a hammer to be on the safety notch. He indicated that it is simpler to use a rule that says the hammer must be fully down than to open the situation to judgement calls. He didn't indicate that competitive advantage had anything to do with it.

 

The reason I asked him about this is, in shooting WB you stoke the SG tube. I inadvertantly got mine on safety. When I went to shoot it, it wouldn't fire. I'd never had this happen before (even stoking at Chabot every match there) and not really given any thought to the rule. So, in my question to him, I wrote: "It seems like it is not unsafe as it won’t fire and would cost the shooter a penalty in the time it takes to get it to fire."

 

The bottom line is, a rule is a rule, whether it makes sense to us or not.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[coloradoblackjack]

Shooter #1's rifle was in the same condition as #2 and #3's.

 

Why would you give #2 a DQ and not #1, when both rifles were in the same condition??

 

 

 

the OP only asked about shooters 2 and 3.

[BJT]

Shooter #1's rifle was in the same condition as #2 and #3's.

 

 

Different posse, different TO, different interpretation of the same rule by different people.

 

Happens......

[August West, SASS #45079]

If an R/O and three Range Spotters agreed to a call on Posse #1, and no one protested at the time, It is difficult to imagine how someone from another posse, who was not present or in an official position at the time, could ask the Match Director to impose a Procedural penalty on shooter #1.

 

Shooter #2 had his hammer down on a cross bolt safety, not a safety notch. Safety notches can break, and the shooter gets a slight benefit in levering the gun from safety notch position rather than fully down. Hammer down on cross bolt safety could be hit with a sledge and not go off, and the shooter already paid the price in time for his mistake.

 

Shooter #3 really need to have a gunsmith grind that half cock notch off his rifle to prevent the hammer from peening the trigger group and displacing the trigger return spring.

[Holden A. Grudge]

Maybe just me, but if shooters 1 and 2 lever a round into the chamber prior to attempting to fire that round (which didn't go boom) then how does the TO know the hammer was not fully down on an empty chamber when the shooter came to the line??

 

EDIT: WAIT...I thought more about this and answered my own question. Not being a Marlin shooter it took me a minute.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Since the term "Hammer Fully Down" is not defined - we have to come up a definition BEFORE we may begin assessing penalties.

My simple one would be.

Where the hammer comes to rest after being released from full cock via the trigger is that firearms Fully Down position.

 

This definition covers rebounding hammers, disallows the use of half cock notches, and does not penalize a shooter that neglects to disengage a crossbolt safety.

 

Rules simply have to apply to all situations.

They are not required to make the operations of every situation the same.

 

Let's equate this to crossdraw holsters/ straight draw holsters/ Huckleberry rigs and the 170.

The rule is don't break the 170 - How every shooter AND THEIR CHOICE of equipment complies with that rule may vary.

 

(IMO) SASS wants the hammer in the position they would be in, if the trigger had been pulled.

On a non rebounding gun - this is hammer flush against the bolt.

On a rebounding hammer gun - this is hammer slightly raised from the rear of the bolt.

On a crossbolt safety gun - this is hammer flush against either the ENGAGED bolt or flush against the rear of the bolt.

 

How every shooter AND THEIR CHOICE of equipment complies with a rule may vary.

 

Oh, and to answer the "Whats the call?"

Shooter 1 is gold.

Shooter 2 gets a reshoot.

Shooter 3 gets a DQ.

 

A Crossbolt safety is NOT a safety notch.

The hammer was fully down given the condition of the rifle.

[Blastmaster]

Since the term "Hammer Fully Down" is not defined - we have to come up a definition BEFORE we may begin assessing penalties.

My simple one would be.

Where the hammer comes to rest after being released from full cock via the trigger is that firearms Fully Down position.

 

This definition covers rebounding hammers, disallows the use of half cock notches, and does not penalize a shooter that neglects to disengage a crossbolt safety.

 

Rules simply have to apply to all situations.

They are not required to make the operations of every situation the same.

 

Let's equate this to crossdraw holsters/ straight draw holsters/ Huckleberry rigs and the 170.

The rule is don't break the 170 - How every shooter AND THEIR CHOICE of equipment complies with that rule may vary.

 

(IMO) SASS wants the hammer in the position they would be in, if the trigger had been pulled.

On a non rebounding gun - this is hammer flush against the bolt.

On a rebounding hammer gun - this is hammer slightly raised from the rear of the bolt.

On a crossbolt safety gun - this is hammer flush against either the ENGAGED bolt or flush against the rear of the bolt.

 

How every shooter AND THEIR CHOICE of equipment complies with a rule may vary.

 

Oh, and to answer the "Whats the call?"

Shooter 1 is gold.

Shooter 2 gets a reshoot.

Shooter 3 gets a DQ.

 

A Crossbolt safety is NOT a safety notch.

The hammer was fully down given the condition of the rifle.

 

 

deleted

[Anvil Al #59168]

Fully down means fully down.

Not on half cock, safety notch, or restting on crossbolt.

It's in the Glorrary of Terms in the ROI.

FULLY DOWN.

 

BUT. If I don't see it before that shooter picks it up and levers it.

Then I won't call it. Should be called while being staged or before shooter

picks up and levers gun IMHO.

 

So.

Shooter on posse one is OK. If fact the MD would probably never even hear about this one.

And the RO could have seen it as he was looking at the gun after it did not fire and then told

the shooter. So again. If not seen before that shooter picks it up and levers it. No Call.

 

Shooter on posse two. Gets a reshoot. For same reason above. It was not called or noticed until

AFTER he picked it up and levered it. Reshoot.

NOW. If it would have been noticed BEFORE he picked it up and levered it.

SDQ

 

 

Shooter on posse 3. SDQ. RO caught it while being staged.

 

 

As for rebounding hammers.

If they are down as far as they can go for what they are.

Good to go.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Fully down means fully down.

Not on half cock, safety notch, or restting on crossbolt.

It's in the Glorrary of Terms in the ROI.

FULLY DOWN.

 

 

The term in RO1 is Hammer down.

Hammer down – hammer fully down at its final resting position.

 

The final resting position is where ever the hammer ends up if you pull the trigger.

If you could pull the trigger, allow the hammer to drop and its final resting position is against the crossbolt - then the rifle is within the rules.

[Anvil Al #59168]

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

Since the term "Hammer Fully Down" is not defined - we have to come up a definition BEFORE we may begin assessing penalties.

My simple one would be.

Where the hammer comes to rest after being released from full cock via the trigger is that firearms Fully Down position.

 

This definition covers rebounding hammers, disallows the use of half cock notches, and does not penalize a shooter that neglects to disengage a crossbolt safety.

 

Rules simply have to apply to all situations.

They are not required to make the operations of every situation the same.

 

Let's equate this to crossdraw holsters/ straight draw holsters/ Huckleberry rigs and the 170.

The rule is don't break the 170 - How every shooter AND THEIR CHOICE of equipment complies with that rule may vary.

 

(IMO) SASS wants the hammer in the position they would be in, if the trigger had been pulled.

On a non rebounding gun - this is hammer flush against the bolt.

On a rebounding hammer gun - this is hammer slightly raised from the rear of the bolt.

On a crossbolt safety gun - this is hammer flush against either the ENGAGED bolt or flush against the rear of the bolt.

 

How every shooter AND THEIR CHOICE of equipment complies with a rule may vary.

 

Oh, and to answer the "Whats the call?"

Shooter 1 is gold.

Shooter 2 gets a reshoot.

Shooter 3 gets a DQ.

 

A Crossbolt safety is NOT a safety notch.

The hammer was fully down given the condition of the rifle.

I have to agree with Creeker on this.

 

A 1/4" o-ring on a Marlin safety keeps this from happening accidently. I think I read this on Marauders website and it works great.

 

Randy

[Doc Shapiro]

No, shooter 3 is the one who had his rifle in a different condition.

 

With a crossbolt safety, if the hammer is resting against the safety, it IS fully down. Pull the hammer back, pull the trigger, that's where it ends up. It's fully down. No call. Shooter 2 gets to go again.

 

Shooter 3 had his rifle on the half-cock notch. That is NOT fully down. Pull the hammer back, pull the trigger. It's NOT on the half-cock notch. DQ

 

Oh, and I agree with Creeker.

 

 

 

BJT, are you, your blushing bride, Bud, and Susie coming to dinner with us on Friday the 29th when our visitors from Down Under are in town? Send me a message in FB. I have a different e-mail address.

[Cassalong Hopidy]

I am with Doc, Creeker and Randy on the meaning of "hammer fully down." To read it as Anvil Al's interpretation would is to penalize a shooter for having a safety on his rifle--an implausible result. The shooter would be required to move the safety to OFF and lower the hammer--what would that accomplish? My understanding is that we are talking about a rifle that is being staged prior to being shot--so there is no round in the chamber, they are all in the magazine.

 

And while showing up the rifle in the half cocked or fully cocked position (even over an empty chamber) is a SDQ, I have to tell you that at monthly club matches this happens from time to time and if noticed by the T/O is corrected by him/her lowering the hammer before the shooting sequence begins, with a caution to the shooter of course.

 

I understand that we need to act in an abundance of caution and that the rule may assume something has gone wrong at the loading table and that a round may in fact be in the chamber, but I don't think that possibility warrants a reading of "hammer fully down" that demands shooters forego safeties or shift them to OFF. Doing so over a live round would certainly NOT advance safety.

 

Cassalong Hopidy

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I am with Doc, Creeker and Randy on the meaning of "hammer fully down." To read it as Anvil Al's interpretation would is to penalize a shooter for having a safety on his rifle--an implausible result. The shooter would be required to move the safety to OFF and lower the hammer--what would that accomplish? My understanding is that we are talking about a rifle that is being staged prior to being shot--so there is no round in the chamber, they are all in the magazine.

 

And while showing up the rifle in the half cocked or fully cocked position (even over an empty chamber) is a SDQ, I have to tell you that at monthly club matches this happens from time to time and if noticed by the T/O is corrected by him/her lowering the hammer before the shooting sequence begins, with a caution to the shooter of course.

 

I understand that we need to act in an abundance of caution and that the rule may assume something has gone wrong at the loading table and that a round may in fact be in the chamber, but I don't think that possibility warrants a reading of "hammer fully down" that demands shooters forego safeties or shift them to OFF. Doing so over a live round would certainly NOT advance safety.

 

Cassalong Hopidy

+1

 

One could make an argument that having the hammer down on the safety is even safer than having the hammer down completely with safety off. On the really really low chance there was a bullet in the chamber from the loading table, it would be hard for the gun to fire if dropped with hammer on safety.

[BJT]

+1

 

One could make an argument that having the hammer down on the safety is even safer than having the hammer down completely with safety off. On the really really low chance there was a bullet in the chamber from the loading table, it would be hard for the gun to fire if dropped with hammer on safety.

 

 

Yes and you could make that argument very well for the saftey notch.

 

Now a review, PW, please correct me here...

 

Long ago, if a shooter brought up a rifle with the hammer at the safety notch, he was required to pull to full cock and fire. If it went boom, he was DQ'd and if it went click, no harm, no foul. Because of some incident, it was decided that this was an unsafe practice so a shooter was simply DQ'd if the rifle was on the safety notch.

 

 

What is unclear is the process if the hammer is on a cross bolt safety. The RO can do the same thing and DQ but many of you (ah hell, all of you) think he should be able to take the safety off and move on. Why? Why the difference?

 

I am claiming they should be treated the same, preferably with NO DQ DARNIT!!!

 

If going to full cock and dropping the hammer is not acceptable then unload at the line and return to the loading table.

 

There has to be a better solution that DQing people.

 

Done with sermon.

 

Have some lemonade and fried chicken.

 

Cheers,

BJT

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Shooter 2 & 3 both get reshoots. as they were stopped after they had picked up the gun .....

 

Sorry mis-read shooter 3 ,,,,, I thought he had all ready staged the guns and was in the stage to the point of having picked-up his rifle ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Anvil Al #59168]

Shooter 2 & 3 both get reshoots. as they were stopped after they had picked up the gun .....

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

 

Why would 3 get a reshoot???? He did not shoot the stage in the first place.

Left the loading table with a cocked gun. Clear SDQ.

As soon as he stepped away from the loading table with the rifle cocked. SDQ

 

 

Could someone point me out where is says that you pull the trigger and where it ends up is

fully down even if it on the crossbolt. Althougt that make sence. But if you take the safety off it goes down more.

Which to me would seem not fully down.

Might be there. But I can not find it.

And I am probably wrong in my thinking. But it still just don't seem fully down even if it is safe or safer

that way.

Guess I am getting hung up on the FULLY.

 

In seven or eight years of shooting SASS. Don't think I ever seen anyone use the crossbolt

safety in a match. Except if they hit it and put it on safety by accident.