Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 My son and I just got back into shooting although I didn't make it thru the whole match as the heat got to me during my club's Saturday shoot. My son was using my Winchester (Moriku sp?) 92 in .44 magnum using cowboy loaded .44 magnum cartridges from Georgia. When we got up to the first stage to load his guns, the gentleman watching over for safety told us that the rebounding hammer wouldn't be legal at state and national shoots. He is a lifer and while normally I would get into a major discussion about this with anyone, I cut the talk short by saying that we never go to state or nationals anyway. He was unfamiliar with the rebounding hammer which I found curious as well. Now I plan on having the hammwer fixed as I did on my John Wayne Commerative 92, but I can't believe that those Winchester 92's aren't legal with the rebounding hammer. Did I miss something over the years? And yes I am lazy, as I could go looking in the SASS rules book but wanted to print out the post if they are legal and give to the gentleman who questioned it. Thanks in advance.
Col. Nathan C. Riddles, SASS # 7462 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 First I've heard of it.
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 First I've heard of it. Same here.
Bart Solo Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Whats a rebounding hammer? It is a safety feature that only allows the hammer to touch the firing pin when the trigger is pulled. The rebounding hammer position replaces both half cock and full drop positions on the 92 hammer. If you interpret the rules to mean you have to take your rifle to the line with the hammer in a dropped position I can see the argument. The rebounding hammer looks like it is in half cock position, but it isn't. If you interpret the rules as meaning the hammer must be fully down then it should be legal. It is down as far as it can go without pulling the trigger and then it rebounds. I would think that SASS would recognize the rebounding hammer for what it is and would allow it at state, regional and national matches. Then again SASS rules are kind of strange sometimes.
Grouchy Greg, SASS#71981 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 I could find nothing in the Shooters Handbook regarding rebounding hammers. Sounds like somebody was jerking your chain or was full of Bravo Sierra, like the time I was shooting at a new ( to me) club and a pard I didn't know tried to tell me that because I was holding my cross-draw holster with my left hand while I reholstered my revolver with the right, that I was "sweeping myself".
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 It is a safety feature that only allows the hammer to touch the firing pin when the trigger is pulled. The rebounding hammer position replaces both half cock and full drop positions on the 92 hammer. If you interpret the rules to mean you have to take your rifle to the line with the hammer in a dropped position I can see the argument. What argument?...who's the idjit that is making THAT interpretation?? The rebounding hammer looks like it is in half cock position, but it isn't. If you interpret the rules as meaning the hammer must be fully down then it should be legal. It is down as far as it can go without pulling the trigger and then it rebounds. The rules refer to "fully down"...there is nothing to "interpret". I would think that SASS would recognize the rebounding hammer for what it is and would allow it at state, regional and national matches. There are no references to "rebounding hammers" in the rules...there has been no discussion regarding making them 'illegal' at ANY level of competition. Then again SASS rules are kind of strange sometimes. if you say so...I fail to see the issue in this case...other than some misinformed "lifer" giving bad advice at the loading table.
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Somebody told the guy the hammer has to be "all the way down". It was. Next shooter. (FWIW ya got exposed hammer shotguns with rebounders as well. A hammer gun wouldn't open if the firing pins didn't retract.... it's not a new idea. MY 1880s vintage hammer shotgun has em.)
Bart Solo Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 What Adirondack Jack said. +1. BTW I was just trying to explain the rebounding hammer and what might have led somebody to say it was illegal. Please, don't read any more into my comment than that.
Dubious Don #56333 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 92's with or without a rebounding hammer are perfectly legal. To my knowledge there is nothing in the rules adressing rebounding hammers. There is nothing to "correct", nothing to "interpet", nothing to "fix". Don't let this feller give ya pause. He's misinformed and would probably like a polite correction. My son and I just got back into shooting although I didn't make it thru the whole match as the heat got to me during my club's Saturday shoot. My son was using my Winchester (Moriku sp?) 92 in .44 magnum using cowboy loaded .44 magnum cartridges from Georgia. When we got up to the first stage to load his guns, the gentleman watching over for safety told us that the rebounding hammer wouldn't be legal at state and national shoots. He is a lifer and while normally I would get into a major discussion about this with anyone, I cut the talk short by saying that we never go to state or nationals anyway. He was unfamiliar with the rebounding hammer which I found curious as well. Now I plan on having the hammwer fixed as I did on my John Wayne Commerative 92, but I can't believe that those Winchester 92's aren't legal with the rebounding hammer. Did I miss something over the years? And yes I am lazy, as I could go looking in the SASS rules book but wanted to print out the post if they are legal and give to the gentleman who questioned it. Thanks in advance.
Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 .... I'm thinking that your "lifer" LT officer doesn't go to "State or above" level matches either ... ................... fits right in with "Gunfighters MUST alternate revolver shots" .......
Throckmorton,23149 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 a 'lifer' is a Pard who spent a lot of money to get a different badge than a 'non lifer'. .It does not indicate that said Pard knows all there is to know about................well,anything. the one exception being my Pard,PWB of course.
Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 This rifle doesn't, per chance, have one of those "sideways mounted" hammer spur extensions for when a scope is fitted? ....... if so, that might be what he was referring to ......
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 .... I'm thinking that your "lifer" LT officer doesn't go to "State or above" level matches either ... ................... fits right in with "Gunfighters MUST alternate revolver shots" ....... Wallaby Jack: AMEN! I actually had an ROII tell me 'last year' that I should have earned a 'P' on a stage because I didn't alternate all my shots from both pistols. I said 'WHAT....your jokin"! Then I said...."Ain't no such rule, etc......". We actually shoot with folks that make stuff up. And I'm glad the the original poster put this on the Wire. ..........Widder
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 What Adirondack Jack said. +1. BTW I was just trying to explain the rebounding hammer and what might have led somebody to say it was illegal. Please, don't read any more into my comment than that. Howdy Bart, I wasn't...just addressing the comments in ref to the OP. ...& thanks for the explanation.
Mustang Gregg Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 GOTTA BE SASS-LEGAL! All of the latest Browing/Miroku/Winchester have them type hammer+spring systems, I recollect. And the Italian/Brazillians still have half-cock notches. I have NEVER had anyone say "no" to using one. Mustang Gregg
BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 This sounds like a case of someone making up a rule or misunderstanding a rule. I have never known of anyone at a state or higher shoot knowing or even being faintly interested in whether or not a shooter had a rebounding hammer. Blackfoot
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 This sounds like a case of someone making up a rule or misunderstanding a rule. I have never known of anyone at a state or higher shoot knowing or even being faintly interested in whether or not a shooter had a rebounding hammer. Blackfoot Yeah and I bet in his real life he'a a Gov,mint bureaucrat, too.
Ace_of_Hearts Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 I see them occasionally at our matches here in Southern Nevada. Just to check the first time the shooter comes to the line. After that there is no more questions.
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 I would add, there is a conversion available to take the Miruko Win 92's back to a 1/4 cock gun and eliminate the stupid rebounding hammer and ridiculous 5 piece firing pin and trigger block. It’s the only way to truly smooth the action on those guns. It also cures the failure to fire issues with the rebounding hammer 86’s. This got converted and the safety welded up then color-cased. Converted Miruko 86
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 The '94 Winnie of late has the rebounding hammer too... It was legal when I shot it in '96 and is today. 'nuff said....case closed....happy trails GG ~
BJT Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 The rules say: Safe to leave the shooters hands. • Empty, action open • Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed The hammer is not "fully down" unless it rests on the firing pin. While I would say it is stupid to outlaw the rebounding hammer, I have the same heartache with DQs for rifle hammers on the safety notch. What is the functional difference? Very Best Regards, BJT
Mustang Gregg Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Nate: That's a right purty rifle there! You do nice work, Pard! Mustang
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 The rules say: Safe to leave the shooters hands. • Empty, action open • Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed The hammer is not "fully down" unless it rests on the firing pin. While I would say it is stupid to outlaw the rebounding hammer, I have the same heartache with DQs for rifle hammers on the safety notch. What is the functional difference? Very Best Regards, BJT Hmmm - a Ruger Vaquero's hammer is not 'resting' on the firing pin, unless the trigger is back allowing the transfer bar to come in contact between the hammer and frame mounted firing pin GG ~ .
ShadowCatcher Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 The rules say: Safe to leave the shooters hands. • Empty, action open • Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed The hammer is not "fully down" unless it rests on the firing pin. While I would say it is stupid to outlaw the rebounding hammer, I have the same heartache with DQs for rifle hammers on the safety notch. What is the functional difference? Very Best Regards, BJT My Ruger pistols rest hammer fully down without touching the firing pin, and my Colts are fully cocked with the hammer touching the firing pin. Seems to me that one must understand the functioning of the gun and be consistent within that scope. If the rifle's hammer is released from the sear, it's rest position is forward/down. If it is held by a part of the sear or hammer assembly, it can be under mainspring pressure and if broken it will strike the firing pin. If it's not restrained by any part of the hammer or sear, but rather is held by a spring that keeps it away from the firing pin, it's at rest as far forward as it will go unless struck. SC
BJT Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 My Ruger pistols rest hammer fully down without touching the firing pin, and my Colts are fully cocked with the hammer touching the firing pin. Seems to me that one must understand the functioning of the gun and be consistent within that scope. If the rifle's hammer is released from the sear, it's rest position is forward/down. If it is held by a part of the sear or hammer assembly, it can be under mainspring pressure and if broken it will strike the firing pin. If it's not restrained by any part of the hammer or sear, but rather is held by a spring that keeps it away from the firing pin, it's at rest as far forward as it will go unless struck. SC Hammer fully down is hammer fully down and we are not talking about revolvers (which operate on different rules) but rifles and finally, what would break the safety notch? A much smaller impact would ignite a round with a hammer fully down on a firing pin that does not require inertial operation (firing pin is never in contact with both hammer and primer). And even for the inertial system, a safety notch could prevent a snagged hammer from causing a discharge as well. The safety notch is only an issue if there is a round under the hammer. I would much rather have the hammer on the safety notch than on the firing pin if there is a round in the chamber. If we are going to be blindly demanding the hammer fully down, we should do so for all rifles. If we are going to use some common sense, then quit DQing people for the rifle hammer on the safety notch. Personally, I prefer the latter...... Cheers, BJT
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 A rebounding hammer CAN'T be pushed further unless ya hold the trigger back and push on it. Then it pops back to it's resting place when ya let it go. That's entirely different from the halfcock notch. The LT drill is simple. Ya lever the gun closed, hold the trigger back and lower the hammer fully, then release the trigger and load the gun. The rebounder is DOWN when there is no "next notch" to lower to. The "regular" hammer is down when there is no next notch to lower to. End of debate.
BJT Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 A rebounding hammer CAN'T be pushed further unless ya hold the trigger back and push on it. Then it pops back to it's resting place when ya let it go. That's entirely different from the halfcock notch. The LT drill is simple. Ya lever the gun closed, hold the trigger back and lower the hammer fully, then release the trigger and load the gun. The rebounder is DOWN when there is no "next notch" to lower to. The "regular" hammer is down when there is no next notch to lower to. End of debate. So the safety system of one rifle can be used but the safety system of the other will get you DQd? Not following the thinking here......
Bart Solo Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 So the safety system of one rifle can be used but the safety system of the other will get you DQd? Not following the thinking here...... Actually that is the issue here. The rebounding hammer is a safety devise, so is the half cocked position. Of course, the rebounding hammer can't go any further down so I have no problem thinking it is legal under the terms of the rule, but I have to ask why do we DQ for taking a half cocked rifle to the line? The question for me in this thread is why isn't the half cocked position legal. My guess is that the real reason is "that's the rule." I will abide by the rule until it changes. I would just like to know why it is a rule.
Bramble Mountain Buzzard Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 My main match rifle is a Winchester (Miroku) 92 in 44-40. Great gun for B-Western! You just gotta do a few things them to make them sing. Here is a video of mine in action: http://s83.photobucket.com/albums/j320/vrieze42/?action=view¤t=BuzzardatMSShoot.mp4
Snakebite Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Is this rebounding hammer at "Rest"? If it is like the rebounding hammers that I have seen then it is... in fact down... it is only allowed to go past that point when dropped,in which case it over comes the spring and makes contact with the firing pin. Then it returns to it's "At Rest" position. It seems like that would be the "all the way down" position for that gun.... not the same as a hammer which is being held back by a quarter or half cock notch. Hummm? Seems like another common sense things, but I admit that I could be wrong. Snakebite
Nota John, SASS #51089L Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Simple cure for the complainers regarding a rebounding hammer. At the loading table, simply drop the hammer onto the firing pin, then add a rubber band from the rear sight upright to the hammer spur. Hammer now against firing pin. Problem solved. Nota John
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