Bottom Dealin Mike, SASS #22273 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 We had a couple of guys on sunday shooting with left hand cross draw holsters, and it occurred to me how few cross draw holsters you see these days compared to the mid-1990 when I started shooting CAS. Which got me thinking about changes in taste in the cowboy game. I started shooting CAS in 1994, and then most shooters wore a strong side conventional holster and a weak side cross draw holster. The predominant caliber was .45 Colt with 250-grain bullets (though 200-grainers were catching on fast). The "best" rifle for serious competitors was the 1894 Marlin, but the most common rifle was the Rossi '92 Winchester clone with '94 Winchesters also well represented By far, side by side shotguns outnumbered 1897s Today, most shooters I see favor two conventional, butts to the rear holsters (which I've always used) The predominant caliber is .38 spl. (I think there are three reasons for that, 1. Competitiveness, 2. the aging membership, 3. the economics of ammo) The 1873 Winchester generally gets the nod as the best rifle, though that is far from universally agreed to. However, '92 Winchesters have virtually disappeared and '94 Winchesters have certainly disappeared. And 1897s are much more prevalent now, overwhelmingly so sometimes. Anyway, that's what it seems like to me. This isn't a value judgement, just a reflection on how tastes change over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 The trend is toward fast-but-reliable. That seems to be what wins. Other than your conclusion about 97s being prevalent now, I'd agree with the trends. In shotguns it has evolved, as far as I have seen, from: any old double barrel -> Stoegers and cheap doubles -> 97s (as Chinese reproductions came in) -> high end doubles (SKB, BSS, TTNs), as time has passed. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 In in the end, whatever works and is available will prevail. I think crossdraws got a bum rap and in some instances harassed by overzealouss "dance police" who fail to grasp the ACTUAL requirements of their use. Beyond that, the guns change with availability and the talent of those who smith them. Marlin smithing has come a long way, and were it not for the recent availability/quality issues out of Marlington, might continue a resurgence. The Italians have done us a good turn with the 73s, no doubt, and the rock simple design of the toggle link is amenable to great smithing. Time marches on, and competition is a very aggressive "filter" of AVAILABLE technology..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 And 1897s are much more prevalent now, overwhelmingly so sometimes. Yep things change, and we get a little older . However a bunch of folks and most of the top guns around here have gone back to the double gun, less moving parts and less things to break. Good Luck Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I was working the unloading table Saturday and a Win 94 came across, I had to ask what it was as I'd not seen one in the flesh. In my short 3 years in the game I've seen the use of 97s falling off in favor of SxSs. Around here anyway, YMMV. My guns are 357s shooting 38s just for the cost factor. The less I spend reloading ammo the more I can go shoot. If money was no object (hey I can dream) I'd have a brace or 45s and 44-40s and at least one rifle in each as well. Two straight hang holsters for me, with my belly a cross draw isn't an option. Seems like more ladies are shooting lately too, that is a really good trend. That's the view from my saddle. Grizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YakimaStubbs#9521 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I can remember when 20 shooters at a match was a HUGE turnout. NO one had gun carts, just stacked em in racks. Lot's of movement was in every stage along with throwing dynamite, roping, throwing knives. Seemed a lot more fun. Oh, had to get a special exception so my 10 year old son could shoot. Do like that part now, bucaroo's and buckerettes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I can remember when 20 shooters at a match was a HUGE turnout. NO one had gun carts, just stacked em in racks. Lot's of movement was in every stage along with throwing dynamite, roping, throwing knives. Seemed a lot more fun. Oh, had to get a special exception so my 10 year old son could shoot. Do like that part now, bucaroo's and buckerettes! Kinda would like to see more of that..... My favorite was the barrel horse were ya sat a-top and a pard rocked back and forth (slowly) while ya shot the rifle.... GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bottom Dealin Mike, SASS #22273 Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 Yakima, Guncarts are another thing that has changed over time. My first guncart was a golf cart and bag bought at salvation army for $5. They were never common, but I haven't seen a golf cart/guncart in years. The safety zealots opposed them because long guns went in muzzles first and actions got closed. Back in the '90s red, wooden, Radio Flier pull wagons were pretty popular. Guys would build horizontal racks in them. Then Horizontal racks got the stink-eye from the safety zealots. Haven't seen one in years, which is too bad because you could carry a lot of stuff in them. The last couple of years I've seen more converted kids jogging strollers turned into gun carts...kind of like a return to the old golf cart /guncarts, but more practical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bottom Dealin Mike, SASS #22273 Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 At my first match, on the first stage we sat on a 55-gal drum horse equipped with a saddle and shot both handguns. That was enough to hook me on the game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 It's all about local perspective. Out West you still see about a 50/50 mix of crossdraw to strong side. Sometimes more cross draw. 97's have diminished slightly with SXS filling in. A few guys I know bring both. Depending the stage scenario they will pick which gun to use. Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Yup, I've noticed the same changes as you and Garrison note. I remember seeing a picture of a team rifle side match at EOT in 1999. I counted about 20 rifles, with a few 92's, one 73 and the rest were Marlins. Back then we started noticing how very smooth and sweet the 66 and 73 actions were and wondered about getting rid of the wasted motion in them. And I always had a sweet spot for the 73's anyway. But as Joe mentioned, I'm seeing more and more folks switch to SxS and many with the more $$$ models. And I'm seeing more cross draws in the last two years than I've seen in a long time. And we are still having fun! More moving targets than ever before. Some rather novel but not very complicated sweeps and scenarios, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 It would surprise me if squaw grippers are preferring double strong rigs. It would surprise me if duelists were not preferring double strong rigs. Double duelist has proved to be an advantage. Another change; performance. Very Best Regards, BJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Last major shoot (Read that as State/Provincial) I got back from about 6 days ago ,,, My possie had 15 shooters 12 using doubles and 3 using 97s... And one of the 97 users only using it be cause his double was not working right, he had sent it out for Smoothing and recieved it back at the shoot before side matches ... We also had 2 Winchester 94s in use , 4 92s, 3 66s, 3 marlins and 3 73s .... Eight "Colt" SAA , A Dragoon, !860 Army , 3 1872 Opentops and a 1851 Navy, 2 "Stampeeds" ....... Other possie had differing make-ups but overall the double was used more commonly than the 97s ... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 My perception is that more folks are starting to use sxs. A few years ago there were a lot more 97s it seems to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 BDM, I think it's more locale dependent than you may think. I started in CA in 1985. The .38 special was the most prevalent round then, now, and for all the time in-between. The .45 Colt is a second place finisher, at times it's been more distant than others, and more or less so in some locales than others. But, never have the large calibers outnumbered the .38 on the firing line; possibly even when you combine all the +.40 calibers together, if you were take in the whole wide world of cowboy action shooting. When I moved to TX in 1990, many shooters had never been west of the Pecos, hadn't seen actual guns, calibers or rigs in competitive use except in a couple of magazine articles done by Spangenberger & Venturino, and possibly, the almost as rare photo albums by the maybe 5-10 shooters from any one club or region that had made the trek to CA to shoot EOT or to AZ for WR. Write-ups of what worked or didn't work were VERY few and VERY far between... even less so was their real world applicability. And still photos don't do justice to the functionality and practicality of one caliber or rig style over another. Still, to this day, I believe most new shooters come to the game thinkin' .45 Colt or .44-40. However, it doesn't take them long to figure out that if they wanna be competitive they need to move to the .38. Except for the Tex Fiddlers amongst us! Although I still think most folks are way off base with their reliance on self-contained cartridges... And those folks that wanna pretend they're shooting BP with conversions... well... the less said the better. Shotguns have always been mostly doubles, with 1897's a close second; and in some locations, the number one pick. Trends in loading techniques and availability of the clones have had more folks acquire '97s, but until Tequila and Evil Roy started their single loading over the top, the '97 was ALWAYS the slowest pick in terms of reloads and except for the rare few, regelated to the "Team Events." Even then, many fast double shooters could keep up with them. This started changing as shooters started emulating Tequila and ER, and grabbing 2 or 3 shells with one grab. Holsters, have always been run as you brung. X-draws were somewhat more scarce when the game was only played with one six-gun. But, they weren't non-existant. And when two six-guns became the norm, many folks just naturally added a x-draw to their strong side holster as the top shooters of the time were using that combo. Transistions were even more important with two six-guns as now over half the transistions involved how you handled the six-guns, instead of only a third. Two strong-side holsters were not that common as there wasn't a "NEED" until double-duelist and gunfighter categories really took off. IMO, one reason for the seemingly demise of the x-draw holster is the "shall not exceed 30º from the vertical" rule. This bit of nonsense took out of play all the 40º to 45º x-draws that had been so prevalent up to that time. For a x-draw worn on the left hip, with the butt as near the buckle as is possible, a 35-40º holster is the easiest to use. And if a holstered six-gun can't "sweep" anyone, there's no reason for the rule. But I digress. The other reason is the sheer numbers of folks that compete in a category where a butt-foward carry isn't allowed, and it isn't as functional the way some folks wear them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Solo Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 We had a lot of movement last Saturday. One of our 300 pound plus guys joked he had to run like the wind on the shotgun, move, rifle, pistol, move, shotgun, move, pistol stage. I was the TO on my posse for most of the match. I decided to count all the movement as my exercise for the day. Funny, for all the movement the leader board looked just about the same as always. The fast shooters were still fast and the slow shooters were still having a great time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Then there are those who DO wear a cross-draw holster... with the darned thing worn dang near front center like some sort of nineteenth-century codpiece or "cowboy sporran~!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Jackson Turner Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 EVERYbody is getting faster! Including the women and kids.... Cheers, FJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Then there are those who DO wear a cross-draw holster... with the darned thing worn dang near front center like some sort of nineteenth-century codpiece or "cowboy sporran~!" Damned silly to wear it elsewhere........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotgun Boogie, SASS #67870 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 EVERYbody is getting faster! Including the women and kids.... Cheers, FJT Everybody? Me not Boogie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Kinda would like to see more of that..... My favorite was the barrel horse were ya sat a-top and a pard rocked back and forth (slowly) while ya shot the rifle.... GG ~ Ya mean like: Off the barrel This was after they'd cut the rockers off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Winchester Jack, SASS #70195 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I started with a Winchester 94 and a Rossi 20 gauge sxs coach gun with external hammers. After fighting with that 94 for a year I upgraded to a 92. I picked up a 12 gauge sxs still with external hammers. Last year I switched to a 97 and a 73 slicked up by Cody Conagher. My times aren't a whole lot faster (I still finish in the bottom 3rd) but a lot less frustration and that leads to a lot more fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 EVERYbody is getting faster! Including the women and kids.... Cheers, FJT Oh yeah, where can I find these fast women of which you speak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bottom Dealin Mike, SASS #22273 Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 Hi Griff, Back in the early 2000s...I think around 2003... I put together two spread sheets. One was all the equipment used by the top 5 finishers in every category at EOT. The other was a non-scientific survey of folks on the SASS wire for the same info. I wish I still had it,but many computer crashes and upgrades later, it has been lost. However, I remember pretty well what the results were. Top finishers at EOT that year (Except Mounted) all used Ruger .38s revolvers. Most used '73 rifles in .38 with a few Marlins thrown in. There were lots of 97s in with the SxS but I can't remember the proportion. Over 300 shooters here on the SASS Wire replied to the survey. The results there surprised me. At the time .45 Colt was the most used caliber among non-EOT winners, with .38 Spl coming in second. As I recall there were about twice as many people saying they shot .45 as there were saying .38. Then just handfulls of all the other calibers. The '73 was the first choice as the rifle for the respondents with Marlin a strong second, then '66s and '92s. Shotguns were about evenly split between SxS and 97s. My personal observation is that more shooters use .38s now. I've questioned shooters who used to shoot .45s why they switched to .38s and almost every one I asked has cited economic reasons. It just costs so much less to load .38s. A couple of folks in their late 70s have also said that .45 beats them up too much. I'm not putting any value judgements on this. I don't care what people shoot, as long as they shoot and have fun. I just think it is interesting to see the changes over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Oh yeah, where can I find these fast women of which you speak? In our case.....WE MARRIED'EM. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 In our case.....WE MARRIED'EM. LG Best decision I ever made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Another trend is to horizontal staging of long guns. Back then there was alot of vertical staging, along with about equal amount of horizontal. Now, practically all horizontal staging/restaging. I've only shot one match in about three years that had a vertical stageing. Another trend now is for the 97 shooters to pull more than two SG shells at a time. Back then, load one, close action, stuff another in the magazine tube and shoot. Todays sxs shooters have developed a whole new technique vs in the past. SG targets are now very close together where in the paat, they were spread out a bit further. I am glad those barrel horses are gone. Blastmaster Edit: Oh yes, there are alot more left hand friendly (or at least neutral direction) stages now than in the past. Not every sweep starts on the left either in todays shoots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I've only been around SASS for 8 years or so. I've noticed the powder charges are coming up from when I started. There were a lot of scary light rounds being fired. I think the number of doubles has increased in that time and the move from Marlin to the 73 has taken place. Now I'm seeing a LOT of 32-20s being shot, some with black powder. Must be the latest newest thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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