Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 ...another group of elected misguided leaders IMHO. "Another pledge opponent, Councilwoman Betty Taylor compared saying the Pledge of Allegiance to reading from "The Communist Manifesto." " Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/28/compromise-on-pledge-allegiance-in-oregon-town-has-some-seeing-red/#ixzz1QahjLOgB GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I wonder if any of the elected officials swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution and the laws of the U.S. and the State of Oregon. They are criticizing being loyal to a concept that actually gives them the ability to have the power they have in the system they are organized under. Now, everyone here knows I am not religious, but I don't see the "Under God" portion of the Pledge having a bit to do with this. These people are the same as, or the progeny of, those who would spit on soldiers. They can deny it all they want, but arguing against recognizing something that is symbolic of our nation, and something that our military has fought under and fought for slaps not only the military in the face, but all Americans who support them, our country, and our system. If they think the flag or the Pledge is divisive, why don't they point out someplace that is more diverse, more tolerent and accepting of the opinions and ideas of minorities and those who think differently enough to have people willing to fight and die to maintain the right to those opinions and ideas. I think I need to step away from the keyboard for a moment and let it cool down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I think I need to step away from the keyboard for a moment and let it cool down. If you want to stay cool, you will stay away from the proceedings of the city councils of Eugene, Or., Berkeley, Cal., Olympia, Wa., and a couple of others I could name! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 If you want to stay cool, you will stay away from the proceedings of the city councils of Eugene, Or., Berkeley, Cal., Olympia, Wa., and a couple of others I could name! I'll stay here in Ohio, where the most I have to worry about is the hamlet of Yellow Springs to the south of where I live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 I wonder if any of the elected officials swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution and the laws of the U.S. and the State of Oregon. They are criticizing being loyal to a concept that actually gives them the ability to have the power they have in the system they are organized under. Now, everyone here knows I am not religious, but I don't see the "Under God" portion of the Pledge having a bit to do with this. These people are the same as, or the progeny of, those who would spit on soldiers. They can deny it all they want, but arguing against recognizing something that is symbolic of our nation, and something that our military has fought under and fought for slaps not only the military in the face, but all Americans who support them, our country, and our system. If they think the flag or the Pledge is divisive, why don't they point out someplace that is more diverse, more tolerent and accepting of the opinions and ideas of minorities and those who think differently enough to have people willing to fight and die to maintain the right to those opinions and ideas. I think I need to step away from the keyboard for a moment and let it cool down. Well put pard.... GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holden A. Grudge Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I think I need to step away from the keyboard for a moment and let it cool down. I am with ya Doc. This pushes a big ol' angry button with me. Shows me that a lot of people truly have no loyalty to anything but themselves. And in the same frame of mind, take for granted the "republic" that was set up and grants them the ability to be such disloyal selfish jackwads Resident Anita Sullivan summed up a common viewpoint: “So you say I pledge allegiance and right there I don’t care for that language,” Sullivan says. “It sort of means loyalty to your country; well, I feel loyalty to the entire world.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 The compromise should have been "If you don't feel comfortable saying the Pledge, or a certain phrase in it, then just stand quietly while others say it. But you will allow others the freedom to exercise their right to say it." If I'm at a function where a public prayer is said, I usually stand quietly. Not because I'm against prayers, far from it. But I'm not supposed to pray with heterodox. Or, rather, not supposed to pray in any sort of service led by heterodox. Rather than make a fuss and be offended, I just stand quietly and say the Jesus Prayer. Or maybe Psalm 50 (51 in the Masoretic numbering). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 While I agree with much of the above, it is interesting that Francis Bellamy (who wrote the original Pledge in the very late 1800's) was a Socialist and believed in the same distributionist ideology held by Marxists. However, the pledge was/is intended to reinforce the principles upon which this nation was founded. There are all kinds of interesting tidbits in our history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 While I agree with much of the above, it is interesting that Francis Bellamy (who wrote the original Pledge in the very late 1800's) was a Socialist and believed in the same distributionist ideology held by Marxists. However, the pledge was/is intended to reinforce the principles upon which this nation was founded. There are all kinds of interesting tidbits in our history. To expand on that a bit: In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.' His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 Whatever the pledge was doesn't matter...it is what it is now and should be said in it's official entirety or not spoke at all....my opinion of course. Yet, if one wishes to simply eliminate the words 'under God', they are absolutely entitled to....this is America. You can beleive or not believe in God, that's the great thing our country allows one to do. But please, if ya don't...and if ya feel He doesn't exist...than why be offended by it and eliminate it. I mean if one truly believes He ain't there, what's the problem? have always been puzzled by that.... The OFFICIAL Pledge of Allegiance: http://www.ushistory...ents/pledge.htm and the threat to our country is just as great as it was with Communism... President Reagan knew the importance: "If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under." "We are never defeated unless we give up on God." and there are many more. If we forget the principles and values this country was built upon, even has thrived upon....well....it won't be pretty. May God bless our Nation! GG ~ Ya gotta love 'google' - makes everybody a walking know-it-all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Whatever the pledge was doesn't matter...it is what it is now and should be said in it's official entirety or not spoke at all....my opinion of course. Sorry, ya can't pick and choose what you want or don;t want in it. <snip> First off, I was just pointing out some interesting trivia, not arguing your greater point. As a matter of fact, the purpose of the original pledge agreed with your point, even though the author was a Socialist. I find the part I quoted above to be an interesting argument. It's the exact same one that the libs use to justify legislation from the bench and the "living breathing Constitution." I think maybe you ought to reconsider using such an argument. Original purposes for ideas and concepts are often what is important - not what has been made of it since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 If I'm at a function where a public prayer is said, I usually stand quietly. Not because I'm against prayers, far from it. But I'm not supposed to pray with heterodox. Or, rather, not supposed to pray in any sort of service led by heterodox. Rather than make a fuss and be offended, I just stand quietly and say the Jesus Prayer. Or maybe Psalm 50 (51 in the Masoretic numbering). Most interesting. I'm a Presbyterian who has been going to Orthodox services frequently over the last 30 years and I don't know that I actually knew that. Doesn't apply the other way around, though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 First off, I was just pointing out some interesting trivia, not arguing your greater point. As a matter of fact, the purpose of the original pledge agreed with your point, even though the author was a Socialist. I find the part I quoted above to be an interesting argument. It's the exact same one that the libs use to justify legislation from the bench and the "living breathing Constitution." I think maybe you ought to reconsider using such an argument. Original purposes for ideas and concepts are often what is important - not what has been made of it since. I get it...understand - I got to thinking and revised my post - thanks pard! GG ~ Remember: my Indian name is 'Fires Half-Cocked' or 'Speaks without Thinking' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 "citizens of the world". Dude, give me a break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Most interesting. I'm a Presbyterian who has been going to Orthodox services frequently over the last 30 years and I don't know that I actually knew that. Doesn't apply the other way around, though! Correct. Orthodox don't mind others praying with them. I will say though, that I think it is as often honored in the breach as in the observance. As with many things in the Orthodox Church, it does have a bit of flex to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickahominy Charlie Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Correct. Orthodox don't mind others praying with them. I will say though, that I think it is as often honored in the breach as in the observance. As with many things in the Orthodox Church, it does have a bit of flex to it. I know it's off-topic, but this exchange reminds me of Independence Day (the movie) scene where the old Jewish guy gathers several together to pray for the successful mission (with his son on it) to destroy the alien mothership. The former presidential aide says, "But I'm not Jewish" only to be answered, "Eh, nobody's perfect." As for the Pledge story....I've gotten to the point where NOTHING some folks do these days surprises me....and I'm not sure that's a good thing. Chick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I am no expert, but I have heard that even a Gentile male may be "drafted" into a minyan in cases of extreme necessity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Ears Wilson, SASS #77948 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Through the years I've often tried to formulate a theory on how a person who enjoys the freedoms this country provides could be so antagonistic to it (eg the Eugene City Council). After 20 yrs. of pondering, I haven't got the foggiest notion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pit Bull Tex Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Dog Ear,All I can say is May God Bless this Great Nation ,and Maybe it can get back to be the way it was, with God back in school, and back in everyones life that needs him.If this offends anyone,God will forgive you for that also.I know he forgives me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Will Bartell Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I wonder if any of the elected officials swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution and the laws of the U.S. and the State of Oregon. They are criticizing being loyal to a concept that actually gives them the ability to have the power they have in the system they are organized under. Now, everyone here knows I am not religious, but I don't see the "Under God" portion of the Pledge having a bit to do with this. These people are the same as, or the progeny of, those who would spit on soldiers. They can deny it all they want, but arguing against recognizing something that is symbolic of our nation, and something that our military has fought under and fought for slaps not only the military in the face, but all Americans who support them, our country, and our system. If they think the flag or the Pledge is divisive, why don't they point out someplace that is more diverse, more tolerent and accepting of the opinions and ideas of minorities and those who think differently enough to have people willing to fight and die to maintain the right to those opinions and ideas. I think I need to step away from the keyboard for a moment and let it cool down. PLUS 10!! I'll defer to you on this one, Doc. I couldn't find the 'censor' button on my keyboard, and women read these posts, so I'll refrain from further comments. What a bunch of &*%#$@^ idiots these individuals are though.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin Gun For Hire Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Gunner, Thanks for bringing this up. I love living in the Northwest but am embarrassed by the city of Eugene, Or. Doc, I agree 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 I walked away from the keyboard while ago to keep from saying something I might regret about these "citizens". In retrospect I don't think I would regret any thought I might have about these "citizens", but I might regret the language I'd use in describing them. Those who would accept the benefits of citizenship in our country and refuse to pledge allegiance to our flag and country should be encouraged to find some other country and immigrate legally to that country, and be happy. They obviously aren't happy here or their loyalty would be forthcoming. If I were unfortunate enough to be a member of that assembly I'd stand up and recite the pledge at every meeting when it was called to order, regardless of being ruled out of order or whatever!! I'll quit now before I say something about our treasonous president or something that will diminish my dignity and offend those who are politically correct. OH YEAH!!! I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisable with liberty andjustice for all!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deja Vous Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 ...another group of elected misguided leaders IMHO. "Another pledge opponent, Councilwoman Betty Taylor compared saying the Pledge of Allegiance to reading from "The Communist Manifesto." " Read more: http://www.foxnews.c.../#ixzz1QahjLOgB GG ~ huh? when I say the pledge it is to my nation under God and her people. My flag is about the respect our military deserve.. darn am I wrong here? Darn it .. okay fine let me try to learn .. lol.. Never mind.. I am just a silly chick what do I know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay Mosby Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 I've felt for some time that the greatest threat America faces comes from within. We've lost most of what made this country great. We no longer pull together, rather have become a nation of self-serving, individuals only interested in what's in it for them. Shameful, and distressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 PLUS 10!! I'll defer to you on this one, Doc. I couldn't find the 'censor' button on my keyboard, and women read these posts, so I'll refrain from further comments. What a bunch of &*%#$@^ idiots these individuals are though.... Believe me, it was a challenge to keep it civil, and the more I wrote, the more steamed I got. I do agree with Clay Mosby. I have heard an analogy to an oak tree before. Strong enough outside to withstand any natural attacker, only to slowly decay from within until inner weakness overcomes its strength and causes the top heavy giant to topple over. Those of us who work to support the structure and maintain its strength are more and more outnumbered by those who would decay the whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted June 29, 2011 Author Share Posted June 29, 2011 I've felt for some time that the greatest threat America faces comes from within. We've lost most of what made this country great. We no longer pull together, rather have become a nation of self-serving, individuals only interested in what's in it for them. Shameful, and distressing. yup...man, I hope we come back - Lord please... GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 These folks in OR are basically children; they have not experienced deprivation, threats to their lives or security, or any of the other harsh realities of life; they cannot comprehend the importance of the free society in which we live, or the need for every citizen to accept their obligation to support and defend our liberties and the symbols of those liberties. They are self-interested dreamers for the most part, and even if well-intentioned, fail to understand that any hope for some form of broader peace and prosperity in the world rests squarely on the survival and expansion of systems like our Republic. As wasteful and tragic as war can be, my hope is that the hundreds of thousands of US troops who have joined the military services in the last 10 years, gone through the training programs, fought side by side, and learned dearly the value of selfless support of their comrades and their country, will carry these lessons back into our society. LL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Headmaster Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 It was best said by: Red Skelton Hear for yourself. Headmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shoer 27979 Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Thanks Headmaster I have always like Red Skelton and Bob Hope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted June 29, 2011 Author Share Posted June 29, 2011 It was best said by: Red Skelton Hear for yourself. Headmaster Love it! Thanks GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Lee Bishop Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 If you want to stay cool, you will stay away from the proceedings of the city councils of Eugene, Or., Berkeley, Cal., Olympia, Wa., and a couple of others I could name! When I was much younger, I wondered what happened to the people who had been hippies in the 60s. In the deep south where I grew up, you’d run into a few, but not many. Since then, I have found that many of them went West and a great deal of them live in the Pacific Northwest, and have drastically changed the culture of the area from very conservative to almost pure socialist. It’s embarrassing sometimes to say I live there.After 13 years in the Pacific Northwest, I still haven’t gotten over the climate, and I don’t mean the rain. I used to live in Olympia and got fed up when after the 2001 Veteran’s Day parade (which was right on the heels of 9/11), they decided not to have it anymore. They never cancelled all their other left-leaning cause parades, though, so it wasn’t an issue over costs. Then they forbid the submarine that carries the town’s name to visit the port for any reason. And the police then allowed protestors to block military shipments of vehicles out of the same port, not arresting them in most cases. It’s made even more odd when you consider that the Olympia area has a huge military presence. But since the use of “under God” came into the argument like it always must with this topic, why can’t people be honest and say they want “under God” there because they just WANT it there? There’s nothing wrong with that as your reason, and I can’t help but snicker at the lack of any better argument for it when removing the phrase is brought up. It’s been missing from the pledge longer than it has been there, and it’s only there at all now because of congressional politics in the 50s. If it hadn’t been added then, I doubt many of you would argue that it would have been added later, due to the political climates after that timeframe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 When I was much younger, I wondered what happened to the people who had been hippies in the 60s. In the deep south where I grew up, you’d run into a few, but not many. Since then, I have found that many of them went West and a great deal of them live in the Pacific Northwest, and have drastically changed the culture of the area from very conservative to almost pure socialist. It’s embarrassing sometimes to say I live there. And don't forget the California Coast. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63k1r5Ra96w That's the short version, folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 And don't forget the California Coast. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63k1r5Ra96w That's the short version, folks. Oh my goodness.....like, you know? LL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mean Matt McCord, SASS #24683 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 A coworker summed it up pretty bluntly once. He stated that americans have had it too good for too long. This is undeniable proof of that statement. Remember also, there are people living in America that hate its guts. They spend their days figuratively (and sometimes literally) walking around with their heads hung in shame that America exists. They are ashamed of America's power, of its standing and influence with regard to the rest of the world. They resent America's existence because of the shame America has caused them (their words, not mine). And forget about the "love it or leave it" retort. The very fact that America exists in its present form is unacceptable to these people. America, in their mind, simply cannot be allowed to exist. It's constitutional republic form of government must be torn down, and replaced with (at the very least) EU style socialism. Those mentioned in this article belong to that mindset. If the moderators think this is too political, so be it. But I dare anyone to prove me wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 A coworker summed it up pretty bluntly once. He stated that americans have had it too good for too long. This is undeniable proof of that statement. Remember also, there are people living in America that hate its guts. They spend their days figuratively (and sometimes literally) walking around with their heads hung in shame that America exists. They are ashamed of America's power, of its standing and influence with regard to the rest of the world. They resent America's existence because of the shame America has caused them (their words, not mine). And forget about the "love it or leave it" retort. The very fact that America exists in its present form is unacceptable to these people. America, in their mind, simply cannot be allowed to exist. It's constitutional republic form of government must be torn down, and replaced with (at the very least) EU style socialism. Those mentioned in this article belong to that mindset. If the moderators think this is too political, so be it. But I dare anyone to prove me wrong. You forgot one thing. Or, more accurately, you need to clarify one thing. Those "people living in America" often are Americans, by birth. Go to double dare, or skip protocol and go straight to double dog dare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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