Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 It seems like when you're in business everyone else can run it better, make better decisions... it's always easier to run someone else's business. That said, it does pay to look back and wonder what happened that caused business to drop off so badly... being happy with 350, 400, maybe 600 and all 14 spectators is a tough pill to swallow. Especially after years of 25,000 spectators and 800+ shooters. I was a vendor this year. The #1 rule of retailing is TRAFFIC.. then there's #2...TRAFFIC..and then Rule #3... It just wasn't there and the indoor tent even had "air conditioning". We did just about break even and yes, I got to shoot and was therefore often away from the booth much of each day. Compare that to WR and 750 shooters. I was busy from the moment I stopped shooting- with people waiting for me. The weather was just OK- chilly most mornings- and admittedly better for our products than 95 sweltering degrees and blowing dust devils. Costs were roughly the same- but we sold out of 5 sizes at WR and came home with a backlog. That made a nice profit. Obviously no one can do anything about the weather ....BUT Spectators: If you want spectators then you have to give them something to watch and someplace safe from which to watch it. Neither of those have happened at Founders and locals told me they won't bother to go because "you can't see anything anyway." Our posse shooed at least 5 people off the berms. Public: There was one billboard on I-40 giving exit 181. From there you were on your own unless you knew to look for the little SASS cowboy on a sign as small as a garage sale at the turn. From there another sign 2 miles after the turn on the wrong side of the road that pointed onward. There was no sign to turn again at San Tomas which is almost 1 lane and becomes dirt after the BIG SIGN to SASS. Vendors: This is the first ever show I've ever paid money to do that had no Vendor's Listing in the very large, magazine sized program. WOW... that's saying something since we've done as many as 120 shows a year since 1986. I asked several vendors if anyone had come by to thank them for coming or ask if they needed anything. They may still be laughing. Parking: The Waddies do a great job. The trams are adequate, but have little 'period' connection and it's a dusty/raining/windy ride. Folks in town (Edgewood) told me they won't park up in the "mud/dust bowl and walk or tram-it all the way down to see 'nothing' for shooting." Then there were three people I spoke to who had no idea there were vendors and many that didn't even know it was going on. Water: A dying man... would just die... and the three ambulances I saw were all due to heat/ dehydration. Maybe that's an exaggeration or a misunderstanding. Sure- they should have paid $ and bought water- remember there are no public fountains. The ranch is dry and has been for some time. I suspect that it was sold/purchased without a good understanding of western/Rockies water law. Yes, it's a drought this year and I'm sure that dust control was out of the question. Security: Didn't lose anything and didn't lose any sleep over it. The Waddies are patrolling, but the only other choice is to push a cart up 8 rows of trailers with a 100' elevation gain or waiting for the tram, which angers many. As a vendor the only choice is to load up the truck and drive it back to the trailer only to reverse the process in the AM. People don't know this, but vendors lose most at night- not when everyone is shopping. Camping: well... it's a flat spot... but compare that to Sparta, IL with 500+ hookups and, yes, it's difficult to refit a tough choice. And especially one with no shower/ restroom facilities. I'm sure that wind-tipped Porta-johns made more than one person wonder if they were Mother Nature's next practical joke. But, how about portable shower facilities? I know it's been mentioned many times. God help you if you stayed late and had to use the John's in the dark. Facades: Nothing new... except in town, but isn't this the World Championships? Our local club, Pawnee Station boasts far better facades, shooting platforms, wider board walks... at the World Championships we actually staged open/ empty rifles on the run right on top of a barrel. An RO can't be in/on the facade with the shooter without inhibiting their movement. One of the best shooters I know was MDQ'ed attempting to re-stage a rifle over a fence rail onto a skinny little table when the butt caught a loaded/holstered pistol. I personally watched another top shooter almost lose a loaded gun when he tripped on the steps. Maybe a trip to Winter Range is in order here? Or.. the Texicans, or Land Run, or Hell On Wheels or CAC.. well- you get the idea. Attitude: In the words of one shooter, "they act like I should be damn happy they haven't run me off yet. Compare that to shooting 'Comin' At Cha or WR' where they're damn happy you came and they make damn sure you'll come again. NO GUNS IN TOWN at 5:00... but you can't get a beer unless you're a VIP. Who is more VIP than the shooters who pay the tab?" In the words of a dear friend who has shot EOT years before from Norco to Founders.... "never again"... and that's a crying shame because on questioning his reasons; they weren't all facility based. "10's of Thousands are being raised for more buildings (church, etc) and the bays suck, the facades are 2nd rate. Hell, I can't even wash my hands! My trailer has enough dirt to grow tomatoes. My wife won't come here anymore because there's nothing for her to do and no place for her to get out of the weather and watch. Thank God they got new targets this year, but unfortunately the S/G targets are the worst I've ever seen. As a posse marshal too many easy calls were questioned and overturned. This is the World Championships and we had more left/right no double taps than at any monthly I've shot in 10 years. It's not that the stages were hateful- but I can't remember a single one that I thought, 'wow- that was neat'." Maybe it's time to take care of the horse what brung ya. That horse is the shooters and those family/friends who support them- and worry about the town/ church/ etc. a little later? In the meantime, it's left a huge opening for someone else to take the action. That's the nature of competition. I'd say WR, CAC, US OPEN, are beginning to do just that, with meals, raffles, entertainment, side matches, Wild Bunch, really nice awards all included to the shooter and free admission to the spectator, which will leave the World Championships as an asterisk on more and more shooters lists when making choices of where to go. Let's face it- NO MONEY in SASS returns to the shooters. SASS is a FOR profit organization. Many/most won't donate to a FOR PROFIT company to provide facilities that use will be sold/ packaged in some way back to them as customers when the shooting they came for is no better than what they have any weekend at home. Just being the "World Championships" only 'draws' so far. For many it appears that the over-arching attitude is one of "PAY FOR PRIVILEGE" with VIP parking, VIP entertainment, VIP seating, VIP recognition, and a constant 'nickling' for raffles, donations, etc. You'd think it was a church social. Did I have fun? Yes.... if you got this far, you know that's not the point of this post. I, for one expect quite a bit more for my $2500, but you can bet that $1.50 buckle is going on my shotgun belt. This is now a world of increasing choices, more difficult $ decisions and added value everywhere. It's not about the weather, the economy, the location or the targets.... it's about the value, stupid. And those venues/clubs/shoots that continually offer value to the shooter are sold out way in advance even in a tough economy or location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remo, SASS #17644 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I think I will print this before it is deleted. Concise, well written, no mud-slinging! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 WOW, very articulate Bro. King. What you stated can be said about all of our shooting venues and for alot of us, we are getting picky about where we spend our $$$. Thanks ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 1.50 buckle More like 1 yen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Well said, thoughtful post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 1.50 buckle More like 1 yen Not for Bro King. They go all out for him! ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WymoreWrangler SASS 46187L Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Great post, alot of food for thought here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 It ain't like this is rocket science. The WB chose to make the entire enterprize "shooter-supported", and the limits to that are built in. Make it far away, hard to deal with, a "mood downer", nobody wants to spend money. Put it in a place folks can access for something to do, make it as spectator-friendly as possible (even if one or two stages were made as small ampitheaters, where a "passing parade" of posses "performed" all day long, and ya got a TRAFFIC draw. Without traffic, ya got no potential for $$ growth for the vendors, and lose the recruitment/PR effect for the sport. BK, yer certainly not the first vendor to find out it ain't a great venue for business. It's like none of em ever went to a county fair. Any bunch of hillbillies in the country can (and many do) set up a fair or carnival every year that opens pocketbooks because it draws trraffic and folks have FUN..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Meadows, SASS#18501 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filthy Harry, SASS #24924 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 A lot of US who haven't gone yet. WON'T. Not from this post, but from talking to our friends who go to the big matches. I'd drive to WR cause I've talked to shooters who go back every year, or Sparta, Il, not EOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Hi Brother, Very good points. I'm not sure exactly what is and is not done at EOT. Following are some of my thoughts. I wish Holiday Inn (or other chain) would put a big hotel at the FWY exit to the ranch. Also, portable showers would be nice. It is imparative that matches in hot climates have cold water between every stage. Maybe the "Marketing Manager" could advertise in the ABQ papers and provide, for a fee, bus transportation for spectators to and from some area in ABQ to the ranch. It does seem like some of the money shooters pay, should go into amenities (shade/rain cover and water are two biggies I can think of), instead of relying on donors. I know that vendor attendance is declining at Convention due to high fees and declining customers. Seems that an incentive could be provided for vendors, such as a reduced fee for number of years attending. Everyone knows it is more fun to stay at the range. Maybe the Marketing Manager could develop a relationship with a local RV/trailrr rental and arrange to have fully stocked (water...) units brought to the ranch with advance reservation. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrimstoneJerome Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Great post Brother King, value maximization yields a lot of positives. Good seeing you back to back weekends. Regards Brim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Kings been on the road so long I don't even remember what he looks like. But I reckon I'll be able to pick him out of the crowd, he'll be the one with all the buckles on his belts. Grizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Brother. You nailed it. Great post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wimpy Hank Yoho Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I say Brother King I'll give the HIGH Marks PLUS TEN !!!!! Wimpy Hank Yoho aka Bill Lindholm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Brother King, That is one of the most articulate, thoughtful and to the point posts that I have ever seen here on the Wire. I can only hope that the appropriate folks read your words. Not just read, but read and comprehend your words. Sooner or later, the rose colored glasses will have to come off. The sooner the better. Sun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I think there are lessons to be learned for any event organizer here. Not just shooters, but any event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Damn....doesnt sound too inviting Sounds like there were lemons, but you were able to make lemonade out of it (the 'fun' ya had I suppose) GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kid Sopris, Regulator, #3290 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 EOT in New Mexico can be fun....The first year we had icicles, snow and freezing winds; but that was in April, same time when it use to be held in California. When Dutch was on the Board and in charge of entertainment the value was there for sure. After Dutch retired it wasn't the same. Many shooters complained of the manure taste in the food at Raahauge's Ranch.. The population and ease of attending in California was a drawing source for SASS. Founders Ranch is an answer to many dreams for others, but it requires a lot more financial support. I have been to Both locations numerous times as a competitor and vendor; and from a vendor perspective, Founders Ranch leaves a lot to be desired. BUT it is the World Championship, thus if you want the experience you have to go. If I ever attend again, it will be as a one day spectator, or to help Dutch in the Happy Trails Children's Foundation booth. PS.... Brother King Excellent observations and post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 EOT is EOT i spent more time with brother king than anyone else atEOT this year we dont see eye to eye, yet we had a blast I can see why they chose the site basics of airport bout half way in the middle of east and west and due to the lack of water, the price of a RANCH at the time was probably doo-able other than that there aint a single one of us that dont think we cud spend some one elses money better, than what they have.!.! oxy-morron including me-own self brother king you need to update yer avator or that aint the person that I spent time with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Jack Daniels Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Well Done B.K. Bet you won't see this in the Chronicle. Come to Gunsmoke the state championship in Minnesota the 3rd weekend in September and you will see it done RIGHT! GJD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 Hmmmm.... I was just thinking how much yours DOES look like you! Enjoyed meeting you, MM. It was my pleasure to share some thoughts over a brew with you. And I hope that I haven't changed that much since Winter Range in February!!! YIKES!! shheeeshhh... I did have a birthday but.... hmmmm guess I better get a new mirror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Hmmmm.... I was just thinking how much yours DOES look like you! Enjoyed meeting you, MM. It was my pleasure to share some thoughts over a brew with you. And I hope that I haven't changed that much since Winter Range in February!!! YIKES!! shheeeshhh... I did have a birthday but.... hmmmm guess I better get a new mirror. thanks for the brew-ski I am serious, I enjoyed meeting you, and more, ...............................................talking (yikes), and I dont do that (talk) much we are a perfect example you and I did not have to agree upon most things ta git a long, make friends and have a blast SASS members do NOT have to agree with everything the wild bunch has done, to git a long make friends have a blast doing it folks git off the bench travel and have fun meet new folks spend time on other ranges watch and learn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 thanks for the brew-ski I am serious, I enjoyed meeting you, and more, ...............................................talking (yikes), and I dont do that (talk) much we are a perfect example you and I did not have to agree upon most things ta git a long, make friends and have a blast SASS members do NOT have to agree with everything the wild bunch has done, to git a long make friends have a blast doing it folks git off the bench travel and have fun meet new folks spend time on other ranges watch and learn Same with the Wire too... GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hud Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 EXCELLENT post. To bad it will fall on deaf ears. hud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 any leaders of anything #1 is to control cost ....please... any project managers... out there do the math... on the purchase of... a 480 acre ranch kinda in the middle of east and west kinda close to an internationl airport kinda close to a freeway kinda close to a paved road with a natural burm that can play back up... to manufactured burms I think I can understand? that dont make me right I cant wait to do this toppic again in 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Well written summary from someone most folks know and respect. We made two trips to Founders Ranch and that was enough for us. Saw lots of issues first trip. None of issues improved much for second EOT we attended. Kind of a different critique than some of the earlier posts from a few of the shooters. I personally believe the folks at Winter Range have found the formula for putting on a very large match year after year. Their focus seems to be to be totally on shooters and the shooters experience and to continuously improve yearly. I am sure that success is due in part on the very large experienced crew that does the planning and execution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 A lot of the smaller annual shoots are a lot more friendly to the shooters and visitors. They have to be to survive. Glad to meet you at the Revenge shoot here in Cortez, where I know you had fun even tho you were pressed for time. The Banquet was great too. Your impressions are not the first I've heard about FR & EOT, thats why I spend my $$$ and time going to WR. I'll keep you posted on my elk hunt and I'm looking forward to wearing the vest I ordered from you. Thanks Brother K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mockingbird, SASS #22893 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 EOT is EOT [*]airport [*]bout half way in the middle of east and west [*]and due to the lack of water, the price of a RANCH at the time was probably doo-able [/ MM--Bout halfway in the middle of east and west what? BK--interesting post, enjoyed it a lot. I think some decisions are probably best understood by considering the goals of the decision makers and the time horizon for accomplishing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Cherokee, SASS#48332 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 This was my first EOT, and I came as a shooter, not a vendor..So I don't really have a basis for comparison..I had a GREAT time, but there are definitely some issues that need to be addressed..The "No firearms in town after 5:00" thing got me aggravated..We were watching the Wild West show, which was supposed to end at 5:00, and it went over scheduled time..I was heeled, and was asked by a fellow I suppose was a Waddie to take off my gunbelt and hang it over my shoulder..I complied, and checked my watch..5:00 sharp! On my way back to my truck I was approached by yet another Waddie and reminded about the time..Gimme a *@#% chance to get to my truck, fer cryin' out loud! I know folks are ready for a cold drink after a day of shootin', but some of us just like to wear our unloaded pistolas after we get done shootin'-Heck, it's an essential part of a well-dressed Cowboy's attire! I also noticed there were still shooters leaving the berms after the "Dodge City Rules" took effect..5:00 is just too dang early to demand everyone drop what they're doing and run straight to their cars to lock up their guns..Especially when there is still stuff going on..6:00 or even 7:00 would be more reasonable, IMHO.. The signs directing folks to the ranch is also something that DEFINITELY needs addressing, If I hadn't already known how to get there I wouldn't have had a clue on that one.. One other gripe I had was the danged loudspeaker system with the constant advertising going on, at one point I couldn't hear the Posse Marshall's instructions! It was great to finally meet ya in person at the Classic Cowboy dinner B.K..Sorry I didn't make it by your store..I didn't know ya were vending, I would have dropped by..Lot of vendors I didn't get to visit..I do hope our paths cross again soon Pard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red River Ray SASS#33254 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 When did tha 5 pm no gunz start? I been twice but don't remember it then. RRR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wimpy Hank Yoho Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 When did tha 5 pm no gunz start? I been twice but don't remember it then. RRR That's started at Norco, years back Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red River Ray SASS#33254 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 That's started at Norco, years back Ray. Hmmm must be a good thing Wimpy, by 5 I might not remember some things, as it seems RRR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Hats off to a person with the courage to call 'em like he sees 'em. BK, I think your intention is to make things better, not to stir a pot or just complain. My compliments, sir, and good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal A. Looyah #83098 Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 That was well thought and spoken with tact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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